• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Dream Land (64): Stage Research

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,335
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
How's this for a blast from the past? Dream Land (64) will be very familiar to veterans of the Smash Bros. series, but not everything is as it seems...

(Don't worry, it's nothing horrible like Whispy Woods actually posing a threat. That would be silly.)

As a DLC stage, Dream Land (64) costs $1.99 to purchase for either the Wii U or 3DS version, or $2.99 for both versions together.

Previously Covered
Final Destination & Ω Forms
PAC-LAND
75M
Skyworld
Flat Zone X
The Great Cave Offensive
Onett
Palutena's Temple
Yoshi's Island
Wily Castle
Gaur Plain
Pyrosphere
Temple
Mario Circuit (Brawl)
Boxing Ring
Port Town Aero Dive
Bridge of Eldin
Pilotwings
Jungle Hijinxs
Wrecking Crew
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2
Big Battlefield
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Town & City
Duck Hunt
Delfino Plaza
Kalos Pokemon League
Mario Galaxy
Coliseum
Gamer
Wii Fit Studio
Kongo Jungle 64
Windy Hill Zone
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Orbital Gate Assault
Woolly World
Skyloft
Garden of Hope
Mushroom Kingdom U
Wuhu Island
Mario Circuit

Layout
Dream Land 64 has the same layout as ever. A solid main base with three platforms overhead in the shape of a triangle. Typical Battlefield archetype. That said, the lower set of platforms is slightly higher, enough so that Little Mac must use his double jump to reach them. (Shoutouts to @ Thinkaman Thinkaman who pointed this out to me.)

Players 1 and 2 start on the side platforms, while Players 3 and 4 start on the top platform and middle of the base. The Omega form floats over a void.


Home sweet home.

In Melee, Dream Land was known for its unusually large size, both in terms of raw walking space and the distance to the blast zones. In Smash 4, the stage has been drastically shrunk on all counts. Not only is there less room to walk around, or at least it feels like there's less room, the distance to the blast zones has also been reduced. The following table records the minimum percent necessary for black lightning to appear when hitting Mario with a fully charged smash attack from Bowser at the location specified. Compare the values for Battlefield and Dream Land (64).

Bowser's Attack, Mario's Position|Battlefield|Dream Land (64)
Forward smash, lower right platform|29%|27%
Forward smash, top platform|36%|36%
Forward smash, main ledge|22%|21%
Up smash (point blank), top platform|44%|40%
Up smash (point blank), center of main platform|54%|51%

The data shows that not only is Dream Land (64) slightly smaller than Battlefield horizontally in terms of damage required to KO, it is also noticeably shorter vertically. This represents a drastic change from its Melee incarnation, where its reputation was quite the opposite.

Apart from the newly shrunken blast zones, the stage has one hazard: Whispy Woods.

Whispy Woods
Whispy Woods is the name of the tree visible in the background of the stage. Every 10-20 seconds, it picks a direction and blows a gust of wind for 4 seconds that will gently push players away, although players standing on the ground will never get pushed off of a ledge. The direction Whispy Woods blows depends on where the fighters are located at the time -- it will always face the direction with more fighters. If both sides have an equal number, it will pick a side randomly.

The gusts of wind generated by Whispy Woods can still affect players standing on the lower platforms, but not players on the top platform. The wind also stops exactly at the ledge -- players offstage are not affected. Even if a player is not currently in an area that Whispy Woods can reach, they still count for the purposes of deciding which way it will face.


Whispy Woods blowing to the right. He's not center with the stage for whatever reason.

Summary
  • Static layout, but noticeably shrunk from Melee. See table above for details.
  • Whispy Woods blows every 10-20 seconds, wind lasts for 4 seconds.
  • Whispy Woods faces the direction with more fighters. Picks a side randomly if equal.
  • Wind cannot push players off of a ledge.
  • Wind cannot reach players on the top platform, or anyone offstage.
 
Last edited:

Nidtendofreak

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
7,265
Location
Belleville, Ontario
NNID
TheNiddo
3DS FC
3668-7651-8940
Seems like a safe auto-include in the starter category. I bet the wind on stage allows for some unique combos if you know how to take advantage of it.
 

Tinkerer

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
527
Location
Netherlands
3DS FC
2251-4736-2935
It's a bit frustrating that it's this incredibly similar to Battlefield now, rather than being a larger counterpick for characters who can make use of larger blastzones.
 

Shog

Smash Ace
Joined
May 13, 2014
Messages
926


I am glad this stage is back, looks nice and seems to be fair. That's good news!
 

TheHypnotoad

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
615
It seems like this is now a stage for characters that want Battlefield with smaller blastzones. It could also be a counterpick against combo-oriented characters in case the wind messes them up?
 
Last edited:

Shirma Akayaku

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
1,090
Location
A stray asteroid
NNID
Toadette75
Switch FC
SW-3818-9526-0298
Problem is, if you ban battlefield, is dream land banned? miiverse?
I feel like it's getting pushed toward that kind of view. Since Dreamland is kinda the same as Battlefield (despite Whispy and slight differences) it could count as a Battlefield clone and thus be banned if Miiverse or Battlefield are banned.
 
Last edited:

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,335
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
I feel like it's getting pushed toward that kind of view. Since Dreamland is kinda the same as Battlefield (despite Whispy and slight differences) it could count as a Battlefield clone and thus be banned if Miiverse or Battlefield are banned.
I think Battlefield and Miiverse are almost unquestionably "close enough" to get the Omega treatment. Whispy Woods and smaller blast zones complicate Dream Land though. @Amazing Ampharos thinks it's distinct enough to warrant separate use, although I'll admit the fact that it's so similar to Battlefield is a bit annoying on a personal level.

It's still a bit early for me to have really formed a solid opinion either way but I wouldn't mind it being separate.
 

Shirma Akayaku

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
1,090
Location
A stray asteroid
NNID
Toadette75
Switch FC
SW-3818-9526-0298
I think Battlefield and Miiverse are almost unquestionably "close enough" to get the Omega treatment. Whispy Woods and smaller blast zones complicate Dream Land though. @Amazing Ampharos thinks it's distinct enough to warrant separate use, although I'll admit the fact that it's so similar to Battlefield is a bit annoying on a personal level.

It's still a bit early for me to have really formed a solid opinion either way but I wouldn't mind it being separate.
The more I think about it, the more I see this stage getting the Omega / clone treatment. For example: If Player 1 wants to go to Battefield / Miiverse, but it gets banned by Player 2, what's to stop Player 1 from picking Dreamland? It makes me think that people might complain to TO's about the stage list, but I'm probably just being dumb about it.

Now I don't mind if it's separate or considered a clone, but it would be irritating for a player trying to ban Battlefield-esque stages.
 
Last edited:

Tinkerer

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
527
Location
Netherlands
3DS FC
2251-4736-2935
Yes, absolutely. The current competitive stagelist lacks a lot of large blastzone levels, which favours characters that kill of the top.
 

AnchorTea

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
1,189
Location
My bed
NNID
AnchorageTea
I put a link to this thread in "Dreamlad 64 is coming back" Topic so it can get more well-deserved attention.
 

Pazx

hoo hah
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
1,590
Location
Canberra, Australia
NNID
Pazx13
If someone with the NTSC version wants to test bottom blast zones that would be cool.

Confirming that DL64 has marginally smaller side and top blast zones than Battlefield. Tested in training mode with DI.

Bottom blast zone is significantly deeper though, according to results screen measurements. (~12.5m on both BF and MV, ~16m on DL).
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,535
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
Guys, Dream Land and Battlefield aren't the same. Dream Land has higher platforms; countless attacks that can hit the platforms on Battlefield and Miiverse from below can't on Dream Land.

More importantly, like Smashville, Little Mac, Ganondorf, and Ryu cannot full hop onto the platform. (Unlike Miiverse and Battlefield.) This is a huge deal for them, especially Little Mac.
 

Shog

Smash Ace
Joined
May 13, 2014
Messages
926
Yeah the whole full hop thing (and for some reason ignored Wind) makes this stage different. Not Kill % wise, but Platform wise.

(I think that's great because I like Kirby's Dreamland obviously!)
 

Yikarur

Smash Master
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
4,595
Location
Germany
This stage is not even close to Battlefield. You have much more freedom. While I would almost always ban battlefield, I consider this stage a possible CP for me.
 

shane3x

Saint of Swords
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Messages
656
Location
Australia
I don't understand how a stage with hazards is legal. I can understand in the earlier games but there isnt an excuse these days. It's a random variable, didnt realise people were into random variables that can affect gameplay.
 
Last edited:

The_Jiggernaut

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
649
I don't understand how a stage with hazards is legal. I can understand in the earlier games but there isnt an excuse these days. It's a random variable, didnt realise people were into random variables that can affect gameplay.

If you're talking about the wind, you also have to understand that strength and effect of the hazard must be considered as well. The wind doesn't happen offstage, and when it happens onstage it's predictable and has very little effect overall. Plus, more than half the time, the way the wind blows isn't even random, as Whispy always blows towards the players if they are on the same side
 

Masonomace

Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
4,622
Location
Independence, MO
NNID
Masonomace
I don't think the strong blowing wind effect warrants the idea to ban DL. If the wind effect was as dumb / silly as the Gust Bellows item then I'd be in favor of banning the stage but it's not thankfully. It can spice up the match & make things more interesting especially if a character uses the wind effect to essentially Ride The Wind & use it their advantage to go off-stage to meet their opponent for a radical moment laid before our eyes.

I'm definitely kosher with this stage being a CP.
 
Last edited:

Luigi player

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 29, 2004
Messages
4,106
Location
Austria
I actually SDd because of the wind yesterday with Diddys monkey flip kick.
used doublejump already... shortly before I land I used sideB (and kicked immediately) at about the middle of the stage to the opponent. Suddenly the wind starts blowing at the exact time where my kick starts and I go so far that I land offstage.

Welp, that's just something we all have to keep in mind. And most characters shouldn't have such a problem anyway.

Dreamlands "hazard" doesn't even damage you, it's only for half of the stage and you can also adapt to it. It also doesn't start immediately (the tree has to take a deep breath first), and only onstage. It's really nothing too problematic and makes for a few interesting decisions. Of course it would be better without it, but ah well, can't have everything. It's definitely 1000 times better than BF or Miiverse.
 
Last edited:

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
TheReflexWonder
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
Does the wind push you even if you're behind Whispy Woods? Like, if he's blowing to the right, and you're on the ground on the left side of the stage, will it still push you?
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,335
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
Does the wind push you even if you're behind Whispy Woods? Like, if he's blowing to the right, and you're on the ground on the left side of the stage, will it still push you?
It does not. As best as I can tell, the dividing line is approximately lined up with the left edge of the top platform.
 

nubilepoopile

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
30
Do you really want larger blast zones with Smash 4's physics?
What do you mean? Most characters have no problem getting back to the ledge as it is, larger blast zones would definitely spice things up.

I like the ledges a lot more than Miiverse and obviously BF's broken stage hazard-ledges, but I still don't see why they went with this over Yoshi's story if they wanted a Battlefield clone.
 
Last edited:

MitchBerryCrunch

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
40
Location
Ottawa
I don't understand how a stage with hazards is legal. I can understand in the earlier games but there isnt an excuse these days. It's a random variable, didnt realise people were into random variables that can affect gameplay.
  • "Whispy Woods blows every 10-20 seconds, wind lasts for 4 seconds."
That isn't random and it hardly effects gameplay, it doesn't even knock character off platforms or the ledge so it can't really interrupt combos.
 

GrandeurCicero

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
9
Location
Maryland
NNID
GrandeurCicero
3DS FC
2809-7484-2520
One thing I noticed on DL is if Whispy is blowing and ROB does a uthrow by the edge, both characters end up plummeting off. Assisted ROBicide.
 
Last edited:

smashbro29

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
2,470
Location
Brooklyn,NY,USA
NNID
Smashbro29
3DS FC
2724-0750-5127
The reason it's "smaller" is because in Melee they ported over the stage 1:1 not accounting at all for the overall smaller scale of the game so every 64 stage was huge in Melee.

They just properly resized it to Smash 4 size now, same as Kongo 64.
 

Zeth444

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
113
Location
Brasília, Brasil.
Thats my go to stage against friend That plays Jiggs (loser picks the stage). I just need to use a laggy move (like marth's Dair) at the right place and he will rest me, cousing he's death by wind, he cant resist. Against him at this stage, if he is at his last stock and Im not (we play 3 stock 6 min) I WILL win.
The worst is, if he up-tilts me at the the lower platforms at mid-high percents and reads my airdogde, it is enought for him To be pushed out of the stage and die sleeping.
Yet, I feel like this stage MUST be legal.
 

Krysco

Aeon Hero
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
2,005
Location
Ontario, Canada
NNID
Krysco
3DS FC
2122-7731-1180
So I'm starting a video series to essentially take the information provided by ParanoidDrone ParanoidDrone along with some things he doesn't mention and to put that information in another format since not everyone learns best through reading.

One thing I don't see mentioned here is that directional recoveries behave strangely when performed on the base of the stage going left to right or vice versa. I first found out about this from the Zelda boards but a quick test shows that this applies to Palutena, Mewtwo and Falco and probably the other directional recoveries too. What happens is when on the base of DL64 if you use your directional recovery horizontally, you end up in your aerial state and then suffer landing lag. From what I read, this doesn't affect Zelda too much but from my testings it greatly affects others. I'm going to test all directional recoveries and ask each respective board what significance this has. An example I found is that Mewtwo goes way further since his Teleport has a bit of a glide to it when ended in the air compared to the grounded version.

TL;DR Directional recoveries used horizontally on the base of this stage leave the character in an airborne state, changing the way some moves behave and possibly adding/reducing endlag to these moves.

Edit: Upon further testing, this glitch only seems to apply to the center of the stage. I was testing with Mewtwo and if he stands on the left side of the right platform and Teleports directly right he either ledge cancels or gets his usual grounded endlag. From the same spot, Teleporting left, you end up with the glitch where you suffer aerial endlag and landing lag along with the 'glide' from Teleport.
 
Last edited:

Jaxas

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 12, 2014
Messages
1,996
Location
Salem, OR, US
NNID
Jaxas7
So I'm starting a video series to essentially take the information provided by ParanoidDrone ParanoidDrone along with some things he doesn't mention and to put that information in another format since not everyone learns best through reading.

One thing I don't see mentioned here is that directional recoveries behave strangely when performed on the base of the stage going left to right or vice versa. I first found out about this from the Zelda boards but a quick test shows that this applies to Palutena, Mewtwo and Falco and probably the other directional recoveries too. What happens is when on the base of DL64 if you use your directional recovery horizontally, you end up in your aerial state and then suffer landing lag. From what I read, this doesn't affect Zelda too much but from my testings it greatly affects others. I'm going to test all directional recoveries and ask each respective board what significance this has. An example I found is that Mewtwo goes way further since his Teleport has a bit of a glide to it when ended in the air compared to the grounded version.

TL;DR Directional recoveries used horizontally on the base of this stage leave the character in an airborne state, changing the way some moves behave and possibly adding/reducing endlag to these moves.

Edit: Upon further testing, this glitch only seems to apply to the center of the stage. I was testing with Mewtwo and if he stands on the left side of the right platform and Teleports directly right he either ledge cancels or gets his usual grounded endlag. From the same spot, Teleporting left, you end up with the glitch where you suffer aerial endlag and landing lag along with the 'glide' from Teleport.
I've heard people say that Pikachu can Quick Attack Cancel (which is normally just a ledge cancel) on the main platform of DL64 before; maybe it's related somehow?
 

Krysco

Aeon Hero
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
2,005
Location
Ontario, Canada
NNID
Krysco
3DS FC
2122-7731-1180
I've heard people say that Pikachu can Quick Attack Cancel (which is normally just a ledge cancel) on the main platform of DL64 before; maybe it's related somehow?
I was unaware of this. My research so far has shown that :4fox::4lucario::4zelda::4palutena::4falco::4miisword::4mewtwo: are affected while :4greninja::4pikachu::4sheik::4metaknight::4ness::4lucas: are not. That being said, my testing has largely just been using the directional recovery move from left to right and vice versa on the base and using the 3 Teleports directly down on the lower platforms. I'm largely ignorant of how Pikachu's QAC works in this game and if the other characters I grouped with Pikachu have any techniques with their directional recoveries, I'm probably ignorant towards them too. Best I know is that the PK kids can use their up special again if they hit a wall and MK can auto cancel his Dimensional Cape if used at certain heights off the ground.

From the way the stage behaves with the teleports, namely teleporting straight down from the lower platforms, it seems that the base is programmed to behave like an inward ramp much like Halberd despite the base itself being flat.
 
Top Bottom