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Dragon Quest’s Hero out today! Post your thoughts!

Ben Holt

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
3,588
Location
The Moon
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BenHolt
3DS FC
5455-9637-6959
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I like Erdrick as a character. He certainly belongs in Smash, and he will be a very fun casual character, but I have come to the conclusion that unless some secret tech is discovered, Hero will be bottom or low tier at best. Like Little Mac, he is simply unreliable and gimmicky.
Without Down B, he is a slow Link.
With Down B, he is too random to be useful. Many moves are completely worthless due to how long they take to use and have no combo potential due to Down B forcing you to come to a stand still.
But the moves that are good are a crapshoot. You have to fish for them or get lucky. Bounce is excellent against projectile characters like Belmonts and Mega Man. Boom and Kaboom are decent projectiles with kill potential. Oomph, Psyche Up, Accelerate, and Heal are all good moves in any situation, so you can almost always have a decent option in the Down B menu.
Magic Burst is the best move by far. Perfect range, kill power, and tradeoff for MP. Always fish for this on the edge to kill early.
Kamikazee seems really good on paper, but it has too much startup lag and kills too late to justify suicide unless you are at 120+% with NOTHING to lose. But at that high damage, you're dead if you fish for it. Also Magic Burst is just as good in 95% of situations.
Metal Slash is completely useless. Maybe a good option against Metal Spirits in single player.
Kaklang is useless except in the super rare event that you are ahead in a match and you want to run out the timer. Yes, that is it's ONLY use against any opponent that has two brain cells to rub together.
I forgot the name of this spell, but it is a guaranteed shield break, which is good in theory but suffers from the fact that DOWN B PUTS YOU AT A COMPLETE ****ING STANDSTILL.
Snooze is also a good move. Broken, perhaps if it were the only Down B, but it's another of Hero's good projectiles that miss 80% of the time and literally cannot be spammed. So Snooze is good IF it hits, which it often doesn't.
Zoom is also good in theory. When I was a 15 year old kid obsessed with RuneScape (Old School FTW), I designed a moveset for RuneScape Hero with this exact move as its recovery. But since Hero's Down B choices are a crapshoot, using Down B fishing for Zoom will almost always kill your recovery, and Hero's Up B is already a good move. Too random to be useful.

And unfortunately, that last statement is my overall impression of Hero. Too random to be useful.
I think Hero would have 1000 times more potential if his Down B were streamlined.
This would be THE most major change of any character within one Smash game (so not a change occuring from a new entry into the series), but having a Mario Maker 2 style wheel that can be accessed like Shulk's Monado Arts and brought into sub menus that have similar spells that could then function as Hero's Down B does now. It would be slower than if you just happened to draw the perfect move at the right time, but it would be made up tenfold with consistency.
Alternatively, and more likely, the Down B spells could cycle in a set order, allowing one to prepare a move for the most likely scenario.
Zero sums it up quite well: https://twitter.com/zerowondering/status/1156665117775409152?s=19
While I am nowhere near Zero's level, I am decently competitive, and I have little confidence in Hero's current potential. I truly hate to feel this way, but this is my honest opinion.
 

Folt

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Messages
877
Location
Norway
Was not expecting Hero to be the Faust of the game. He's freakin' funny as hell.

Also, I like his Classic Mode: Four battles representing the games of each of the playable reps, and three repping certain enemies/antagonists.

Also, it makes my man Robin into the final boss and that owns. They even switch back to the standard KO system over the Stamina system to make it special.
 

LethalHero

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 20, 2019
Messages
35
NNID
LethalHeroX120
Oh boy…… I have a lot to say…. where to begin with the hero.
First off I guess we should talk about the way he feels. I really don’t know how to describe the way he feels. The Hero feels really slow. The hero feels so slow that it's hard to get any moves out His speed on the ground is fine and believe it or not his movement speed is pretty ok as well. But the main issue with the Hero that I have his how clunky he feels. He is so heavy and it feels like I am playing smash 4 Link instead of Ultimate. This comes from the biggest weakness the Hero has.

His normals
The Hero’s normals come in two categories. Either they are ok or they are decent. On the ground the Hero sucks when it comes to normals. Jab is jab, Ftilt is good for poking and can kill, but it's a little slow, but can be used for an Oos. Dtilt is meh. You can probably get some stuff off of it like fair or uair. While it doesn’t cover behind you, utilt is pretty solid. It reaches bf platforms and kills! I had some matches where other Heroes would spam utilt on the bottom of a platform and provides really good pressure. It's also big and is a good anti-air.

Grabs
His Grabs are trash normally. He has “combos” out of some but nothing is guaranteed. Up throw uair kinda works at low percents and down throw to fair kinda works too. The are big kindas as well. Down throw fair might work at low percents from what I have seen. You can read an air dodge into f-smash if you get the read.

Smash Attacks
His smash attacks are fine. Fsmash kills at a pretty early present, down smash is like Links’ but with a different angle, up smash doesn’t suck you in like Marth, but the hitbox at the top of the sword is pretty big. (it doesn’t even connect to the tip and it hits). Up smash also reaches platforms on bf and PKMN stadium 1 and 2….I will get into the uh…interesting part later.

The normals that are pretty decent are his aerials. All his aerials will kill including uair. Nair is a combo/neutral tool, so you can get nair into fair, or nair into another nair or even uair. Fair is just for neutral play, pressure and edge guarding (The Hero can edge guard you like a mother ******. More on that later), and back air is the same only slower but stronger. Down air is slow but spikes you at the beginning of the move. I think if you land dair you can get an usmash follow up….HOLY **** THESE AERIALS ARE SLOW AS **** LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! A big weakness of the Hero is the fact that is disadvantage state is really bad.

The main way to play the Hero’s normals is to play a defensive game by spacing fairs and nairs until you land one or get a combo off of them. On the ground, you will mostly be trying to land grabs to follow up with dair/uair. The Hero can also play a good tomahawk game since no one wants to get hit by his aerials (especially once I get into the later part). The Hero has 3 main problems in neutral.
1) His aerial speed is sooooooooooooo bad. If the Hero is going to jump and get out his moves, He better hope that you can contest with them. Fair comes out so slow, that if someone has a faster aerial (Like a certain move in the air Link has that I like to use because it just works :D), then the Hero can’t do anything in the air. It's such a big weakness too. Playing as Link, I was able to win neutral by just using my nair too apply aerial pressure and I would keep doing it until neutral reset back to 50/50 or somewhere along that ratio. If not, you lead into the next issue.

2)His disadvantage is awful. The Hero is pretty good combo food for opponents like Falcon, Sheik, Joker and Pikachu. What do these characters have in common? They can put you in a really bad disadvantage state and kill you early if they play their game. On the ground, he doesn’t have many options with CQC to get much done. If he is in shield, he can side tilt to relieve some pressure off of him or up b Oos (more on that later) or just use jab for a quick **** off tool. Other than that, his disadvantage state is bad. It gets really bad when you are fighting against fast characters. I was fighting against a Captain Falcon who combo’d the hell out of me and even killed me with the up air to up air to knee. He even killed me with a raw knee xd. But the reason he killed me with the raw knee was because I tried to approach with fair, and got punished for it since knee comes out faster. Falcon had a lot more tools to use in neutral on the ground while I was limited to just magic use which won’t work if the opponent can play around it. Same with Joker. When I was offstage vs Joker, I had to go super low and airdodge at the right time or risk getting hit with Jokers amazing aerials. (I didn’t have a zoom even though I tried to look for it.).

3) Landing with this character is not easy. When you are at a disadvantage and need to get back to the ground, there isn’t a lot of things you can do besides try to cover you landing with nair, neutral b or side b. You could even try using up-b to try and juke opponents. But other than that, not much you can do. Because his aerials are so slow, it's hard to challenge attacks from below. On top of platforms, the Hero is kinda in trouble as well. You can fall through a platform and airdodge to get to safety or fall through fair if you want a more aggressive approach. But you will probably just be in shield trying to find some way to escape rather than be offensive. Bair is so slow that you can’t run off Bair unless you short hop it.

Overall, The Hero’s normals are pretty strong and have good range, but due to their speed and lag, they are not as good as other characters with moves able to contest them. You have to space out your aerials properly and get as much follow ups with nair and grab as you can. Fair to cause pressure and to edge guard (more on that.), and use that with forward to rack up damage and secure kills.

The Hero’s normals are decent but have a lot of flaws, and because of that the Hero would be challenging and difficult to use as a character with just his sword...but oh...my goodness...those normals are not what makes this character shine.
THE HERO HAS THE MOST ABSURD SPECIALS IN THE SMASH SERIES. They are so versatile and have such long rage that you have no idea what to expect, making the Hero a jack of all trades that will keep you on your feet unless you want to get bodied.

Neutral Special is awesome. For reference, frizz is uncharged, frizzle is half charged and kafrizz is fully charged. Frizz does 9% and is a slow moving projectile that doesn’t have the best distance, controls space really well, which will require the opponent to react which can be used to get a grab if you are able to, or fair if you read that they are going to jump. The issue with this is that even uncharged frizz has a bit of lag to it, so don’t expect to be able to spam it. Frizzle, is where things start to get interesting because frizzle does 18% and travels across half of fd. Frizzle allows you to not only control space, but to be able to relieve pressure if you are against the ledge and your opponent is trying to fish for a smash attack or another move. This move is also capable of moving at a decent speed and can kill offstage! Now frizz and frizzle are cool in all, but by god, Kafrizz is ridiculous. It does 31% moves very fast and is capable of killing from half the screen at high percents. It is pretty much Samus’s charge shot but not as fast but more powerful. It doesn’t do much shield damage, and it's really expensive when it comes to MP, but no matter what you do, charge up Kafrizz if you have the chance. This will demand respect from your opponent and will force them to play more conservatively if they wish to live...unless they have a reflector. Man wouldn’t it be cool if the Hero had a reflect-...WAIT A SECOND!

Side b is a pretty good move. Uncharged is zap, half charge is zapple and full charge Kazap. Zap is good for relieving pressure and forcing a reaction from your opponent. It's range is rather small and it has some lag to it, but if you land it, it will send your opponent into the air, allowing you to plan your next move, regain stage control or reset neutral. Zapple is AWESOME! You can tell if you have Zapple if you begin to see the magic rings forming around the Hero or you just get the timing down. This move has amazing range for a move that isn’t a projectile and can be used to either relieve pressure poke at someone near ledge. I have even some people try to use zapple for edge covering (trying to use an offensive move to prevent edge guarding), and it can work. Kazap… is a move… like holy crap this move exists. This move kills so early that makes no sense. Yes it costs hella MP, but who cares? You won’t spam this move in neutral, so it shouldn’t matter. This move starts off with a lightning bolt that descends from above onto the Hero’s blade and can be used to reach the top of platforms although that is trivialized by utilt. But the obvious strong part is the lightning spin at covers 360 degrees. I have killed and have been killed at around 70% to 80% from half the stage and around 100% to higher killed across the stage. It's pretty good when you see someone about to commit to a jump in attack that you know you can challenge, and it's pretty good at covering ledge roll and. Zap family of spells don’t make the hero and it's not a move to be spammed, but it is worth using and is a crucial part of the Hero’s moveset if you want to win.

Up special is woosh uncharged, swoosh half charged and Kaswoosh fully charged. Woosh is a decent recovery move, costing not a lot of MP to use, but you don’t go too far. If you are low on MP and need to recover, use this or you will die. Another cool thing about woosh is it's a surprisingly decent oos option! You can use it's oos capability to escape pressure from unsafe moves if you are in a bad spot. It doesn’t reach the top platform of bf, but I am sure it reaches the platforms of Kalos and Pokemon stadium. Swoosh is a good recovery tool since it obviously allows you to go higher than woosh with the cost of more MP. As an Oos option, probably isn’t the best move since if you have time to charge it, you have time for other things like grab, jab or ftilt. Woosh is good because it's almost instant while swoosh requires you to charge it for a little bit. Either way swoosh is a good move and the tornado hitbox is also bigger. It also has a pretty good horizontal distance as well. Kaswoosh is incredible as a recovery. It can get you to the stage from the top of the off screen window to the stage with your double jump intact and it can reach pretty far without your double jump, although you can’t go to the bottom, it's still an incredible distance. This amazing recovery allows the Hero to be a really solid edge guard game. I have seen Heroes chase me pretty much nearly under the stage and nearly killed me or kill me even when they used their double jump, then when they either got me or needed to retreat, they just Kaswooshed back to the stage like nothing happened. The only issue with it is that the Hero is vulnerable from the top of the move and Kaswoosh doesn’t have the best horizontal distance. But it definitely shines in it's vertical distance.

With these 3 specials and Hero’s normals, I think he would be an ok character that would still suffer from the issues he suffers from. But The Hero has his down b which is the STUPIDEST THING EVER.

First off let's talk about think. Think is the only thing keeping this character from being broken. Thinking can’t be used while walking, and it takes a couple frames for you to stop thinking. Thinking can be useless in some cases, like you are getting mad pressured or if you are being bombarded with projectiles like Mario’s fireballs or Links everything. Unless… you get lucky. (I will talk about rng a bit.)
Let's go over the monstrosities.

Oomp- If you see this and have nothing for the situation, get it. More damage is always good so this is a must. This move is crazy because there is no indication of when it will end AND smash attacks do hella shield damage, able to wound a shield very early. Also this move lowers defense for you.
Snooze-this move is jank as hell XD. The radius grows larger the farther it travels, but apparently the longer it travels the shorter sleep duration, so you want to try to use this move at close range. Nonetheless THIS MOVE IS SO STUPID! There were times where I would be losing, and get snooze and get a kill for free LMAO. The fact that this move is able to hit midair opponents is also scary. Although you really want to just finish them off since they don’t sleep long. Either way, this move is stupid.
Bounce- LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THIS MOVE IS AMAZING! It's completely useless when use against character with no projectile, BUT WHEN FIGHTING CHARACTER WITH PROJECTILES IT'S HILARIOUS! I was fighting a Young Link who kept spamming fire arrows and boomerang, and it was hard for me to find bounce and I was about to die. The Young Link was looking so comfortable as well...the second I got bounce YOU COULD SEE THIS MAN'S ENTIRE GAME PLAN SHATTER LIKE GLASS LOOOOOOL!!!!! They continued to get bodied until they lost. Bounce also apparently lowers speed.
Flame Slash- hits above battlefield platform if you are facing them and hits below the ledge. Very fast, very strong, kinda useless though.
Kacrackle Slash- same as flame slash in terms of size and speed only They are stick in ice for a long as time LOOOOOOOOL. If you hit your opponent from the ledge and the ice bounces from the ledge, unless they have a good recovery, gg. For both Kracrakle and Flame slash, these moves are kinda for if you see the opponent coming. They are useless otherwise since you shouldn’t be thinking up close.
Kacklang- utterly useless unless you play with final smashes or items. It causes 18% if you land on someone though.
Zoom- You can tell how lucky you are if you get zoom while falling. Zoom is ****ing weird. It allows you to airdodge and jump before you land. If RNGesus exists, use this move lol. BTW, I don’t know how effective it is in neutral. What I do is if I have Zoom, I wait until I am at the bottom of the screen to use it unless I am fighting a Samus or Cloud who will just charge Limit or their Charge Shot. This move is the biggest “**** you” to edge guarding ever and it's hilarious.
Kamikazee- YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES THIS MOVE IS AMAZING!!!!!!!! This move can’t be cancelled, or hit out of or grabbed. You use it, you commit to it. There is some strategy with it though. For example if you are at death percent and you know you are going to die soon, and your opponent is trying to fish for a kill, use it. Unless you are fighting a character with a strong comeback factor like Wario or Lucario. Either way, this move is so satisfying to land.
Sizz- Daniel
Sizzle- Cooler Daniel.
Psyche Up- This thing is weird. It makes your launch distance farther and stronger, but can be wasted on **** that doesn’t matter. I can’t tell you how many times I would get a Psyche Up, get hella pumped, just to get a grab pummel or a jab :(. Still, if you see it and have no other situation to use, get it.
Heal- Unless you are at a low percent, or find a way to kill your opponent, this is a go to move. It's short and simple and even a small heal like 11% can make a difference.
Acceleratle- This buff is kinda weird. Unlike speed shulk who gets to spam his aerials and get more combos, Accel makes you unable to use short hop nairs for your neutral and also increases your fall speed. However, this move is insane for reaching opponents that are near the blast zone! You can run up, jump into a fair or another attack, until they either die or recover in which you should be ok. You can even go under Final Destination and Battlefield with it.
Metal Slash- ****.
Hocus Pocus can do the following:
Good: Make you invincible, make you giant, fully restores MP, Grants you one of your spells for only 4 MP instead of the usual cost,
Bad: poisons you, gives you a damage flower, ZA WARUDO yourself, puts yo ass to sleep, shrink you, take away all your MP or make you invisible.
As you can see, hocus pocus has more negative effects than good effects. It's really not worth using unless you are either desperate for something amazing, stupid or brave (same thing right?).
Bang- This move is good and I hate it because it's so strong. If you see it, throw it even if you miss. It will force a reaction unless the opponent can reflect.
Kaboom- THIS MOVE IS STUPID REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! It not only sucks you in, it strong as all hell and kills you really early. It's also a decent speed so you have to pay attention to the Hero’s bar or risk dying for free.
Hatchet Man- THIS MOVE IS FUNNY. It's stronger than a half charged Smash Attack and Breaks Shields instantly. If you use this move with Psyche Up and it lands, in the words of Bucciarati ~“arrivederci”.
Whack- slow moving projectile that can insta kill your opponent Haven’t done it yet nor have been killed.
Thwack- an AOEattack just like whack only stronger. Can kill at 0% because why not.

...now out of all the spells that really grind my nuts...it's this one
MP BURST IS A BRUH MOMENT X9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
THIS MOVE IS ABSOLUTELY BUSTED!
This move is best used for edge guarding BUUUUUUUT you can use to troll the ever living **** out of your opponent. Just throw it out when they are in the air and watch them die or get 56% for free. It doesn’t even need to be fully charged. It doesn’t do any shield damage though so watch out for that...Now then...on to what makes MP Burst ridiculous. If your opponent is offstage, and you get MP burst...use it. There is literally no escape if you are far enough from the ledge. They have 0 options other than to try and roll and take less damage or get up attack and hope that they hit you to cancel the move. If they can’t do any of those then by god they are ****ing dead. Just run away afterwards so you don’t die

So, with all that being said, what do I think of RNG in this game and is Hero worth banning? My answer is no BUT you would have to be pretty ignorant to not understand the fear and worry. People play Smash Bros Competitively and while there are more players who play it casually, people who play the game competitively sink a lot of hours and money into getting better and honing their skills. The players buy the characters, go to tournaments which cost money. Smash Bros has had a pretty shaky history when it comes to new characters, but even with Meta Knight in brawl, Fox in melee and even Smash 4 with Bayonetta, the game was still SOMEWHAT consistent enough to be played. If you studied enough and did what you think you had to do, the game was still stable. It might be dull and uninteresting like Smash 4 towards it's death, with the worst EVO grand finals in history and the worst meta in the entire game, it was still consistent.
Peach’s turnips while random are at the end of the day projectiles that can be grabbed, reflected or simply avoided. You can literally use what Peach as against her if you are skilled enough. Missfire while fast and strong as hell, but it's It's unsafe, unpredictable, gets stopped by everything, has 0 priority regardless of charge or missfire. Links uncharged arrow would stop a missfire and it can even kill you if you get stuck under the stage. Do I even need to talk about Game&Watch 9? That move isn’t exactly about to hit you from across the screen. It is a comeback factor, but it's a well deserved come back factor.
I didn’t talk about this in smash attacks, but Hero has a ⅛ chance of getting a critical hit with his Smash attacks. That means if you do 8 smash attacks in a row, one of them will be a critical hit which does more damage and more knockback. Although this is a cool mechanic, this allows for some really early kills and it's pretty scary how you can use down smash to read a roll, and have it kill someone at 50%, or having fmash be super safe on shield or even break it because you had a critical. The flow of Smash requires smash attacks to be used at least once or twice or more. The Hero is already a strong character when it comes to raw strength, plus he has psyche up and Oomph if he needs more power. Having rng determine what happens to you is unfair and unstable. Not only that, The Hero’s spells being able to KO at 0%? Please don’t tell me that is fair despite how rare it is. It doesn’t even need to be 0%. The higher the percent the bigger the chance. I died at 30% from thwack. I won the game, but my skill was matched up against his luck and luck is a big factor with every battle in real life and in games. Bounce can completely ruin someone’s game because you were lucky enough to pull a bounce mid-match. Now the Hero can kill me at 40% because he has Oomp and Acceleratle.
“AHOY SPONGEBOB ME BOY! THE HERO HAS JUST USED MP BURST WHILE I AM AT 50% TRYING TO RECOVER, AND I AM GOING TO DIE! ARGARGARGARGARGARGARGARGARGARGARGARGARGARG!”. You just so happen to run across Kaboom while i am trying to approach or you just so happen to get Kacrackle Slash while I am trying to get back to the stage or I just so happened to get Zoom so I can return to stage for free. There are so many things wrong with this that you could literally be winning vs the Hero or be in a good position, but because of not skill, but rng, you get put in a bad spot. When someone complains about the Hero, I do understand why they are upset and might want a ban. Smash Ultimate is in the best place ever right now. So much diversity in characters and stage with different players and new players coming into the game and having fun and it's awesome. My main fear before the Hero came out was not because he was going to be top tier, but because he would be so random and so strong that he makes the game inconsistent and ruins what the Smash community has. When talking about the Hero and rng and why he should be banned, I listen because I know what it's like to feel like you have worked hard for something, just to have it taken from you out of nowhere or have it taken slowly and painfully. Haven’t you ever felt that before? The only reason I think the Hero is fine is because thinking requires a lot of time and it can easily be neglected by paying attention to what the hero has to use, and applying pressure via projectiles and or other ways your character can. The Hero also has bad normals that are strong if spaced well, but can’t allow him to contest with characters that have fast aerials. His Fair comes out at frame 13-14 for god sakes. Ganondorfs comes out at around 11-12.

What do I think of the Hero personally?
I like him. He is exactly what I thought he was going to be and more. I love Erdrick and the Squad. They look cool, sound cool and I like that they have magic and swords. I think they are fun, but I am not the biggest fan of how he moves and how he feels. He is so clunky and heavy that after playing as him for 5 hours straight, I went to Link and ****ing thought I had the damn bunny hood on from how high and lightweight I was. I think in terms of Tier, the Hero is probably mid-high tier or low-high tier or even high-mid tier. He has only been out for 3-4 days and we don’t know everything about him yet. I could be wrong about tier and or even everything. I won’t main him (didn’t even want to from the beginning) and I think he is decent. The Hero is a decent character who, if you play your normals right, get your grabs, manage your magic and with some luck, you can win and get the W. After doing my research on how big Dragon Quest is in japan, The Hero feels like an amazing addition to smash.
 

Xquirtle

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Messages
232
Location
Columbus, Ohio
I like Erdrick as a character. He certainly belongs in Smash, and he will be a very fun casual character, but I have come to the conclusion that unless some secret tech is discovered, Hero will be bottom or low tier at best. Like Little Mac, he is simply unreliable and gimmicky.
Without Down B, he is a slow Link.
With Down B, he is too random to be useful. Many moves are completely worthless due to how long they take to use and have no combo potential due to Down B forcing you to come to a stand still.
But the moves that are good are a crapshoot. You have to fish for them or get lucky. Bounce is excellent against projectile characters like Belmonts and Mega Man. Boom and Kaboom are decent projectiles with kill potential. Oomph, Psyche Up, Accelerate, and Heal are all good moves in any situation, so you can almost always have a decent option in the Down B menu.
Magic Burst is the best move by far. Perfect range, kill power, and tradeoff for MP. Always fish for this on the edge to kill early.
Kamikazee seems really good on paper, but it has too much startup lag and kills too late to justify suicide unless you are at 120+% with NOTHING to lose. But at that high damage, you're dead if you fish for it. Also Magic Burst is just as good in 95% of situations.
Metal Slash is completely useless. Maybe a good option against Metal Spirits in single player.
Kaklang is useless except in the super rare event that you are ahead in a match and you want to run out the timer. Yes, that is it's ONLY use against any opponent that has two brain cells to rub together.
I forgot the name of this spell, but it is a guaranteed shield break, which is good in theory but suffers from the fact that DOWN B PUTS YOU AT A COMPLETE ****ING STANDSTILL.
Snooze is also a good move. Broken, perhaps if it were the only Down B, but it's another of Hero's good projectiles that miss 80% of the time and literally cannot be spammed. So Snooze is good IF it hits, which it often doesn't.
Zoom is also good in theory. When I was a 15 year old kid obsessed with RuneScape (Old School FTW), I designed a moveset for RuneScape Hero with this exact move as its recovery. But since Hero's Down B choices are a crapshoot, using Down B fishing for Zoom will almost always kill your recovery, and Hero's Up B is already a good move. Too random to be useful.

And unfortunately, that last statement is my overall impression of Hero. Too random to be useful.
I think Hero would have 1000 times more potential if his Down B were streamlined.
This would be THE most major change of any character within one Smash game (so not a change occuring from a new entry into the series), but having a Mario Maker 2 style wheel that can be accessed like Shulk's Monado Arts and brought into sub menus that have similar spells that could then function as Hero's Down B does now. It would be slower than if you just happened to draw the perfect move at the right time, but it would be made up tenfold with consistency.
Alternatively, and more likely, the Down B spells could cycle in a set order, allowing one to prepare a move for the most likely scenario.
Zero sums it up quite well: https://twitter.com/zerowondering/status/1156665117775409152?s=19
While I am nowhere near Zero's level, I am decently competitive, and I have little confidence in Hero's current potential. I truly hate to feel this way, but this is my honest opinion.
I wouldn't say hes as gimmicky as Mac. Mac has no aerials, no recovery, and like 3 completely ridiculous grounded moves. but I agree that Hero just might be too all over the place, and pays a hefty price for his individually powerful moves (in his frame data). So like, if we just ignore his down B entirely, his side B still can completely end a stock with a read or mistake, and neutral B is pretty dang strong. His recovery is insanely good, especially since you can kinda mix it up with how much you charge it up, changing the timings. Frame data is kinda like playing link though, which is what might make him mid tier.

I think you're on point witht he down B stuff. Most of the moves are good or great, but, at a super high level, it looks like it will be so insane to be able to press down B and menu the right move while in actual combat. We might see heros just straight up slamming down B and taking the first move on the list instantly to test their luck. I can at least see that making sense if you're at slight range, with a majority of the moves being ranged or a buff.

Frame data just kills it though. I just imagine Leo's Joker or a high level Wario completely running over Hero with straight up pressure. Fox too. Idk how Hero keeps rush down characters honest. and to top it off, he is clearly a massive pub stomp and will probably get nerfed just because his side B kills at 40% etc etc.

Overall, i'm thinking mid tier due to sword + okayish frame data + top tier recovery + random free wins. Probably will just get dumped on by top level players on high tiers tho.
 

shinhed-echi

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I’m going to keep it relatively short.

I love this character!

His mobility felt pretty awkward at first, but I knew hat would be a non-issue with practice.

His sword attacks are average. Not all that useful, but really strong if they land.
The range is awkward. Somewhere between Young Link and Link’s.


Specials Frizz, Zap, and Whoosh feel amazing. IMO, these are all the tools the Hero needs.
But... Down B, as controversial as it is, helps a lot to turn the tide of battle in one’s favor.

Critical Hit is something I feel we don’t need. It’s a nice little nod, and can land early kills, but we already have so many random factors I feel this is just overkill.

The character is fun. I don’t play in tournaments anymore, but I’d still be sad if he’s banned because I wouldn’t get to see pros using him.


Personally? I think we could do without the more controversial stuff like:
- Whack / Kathwack
- Criticals
- Hocus Pocus (I regret wanting it now)
- Magic Burst could be tweaked to rack tons of percent, but not kill the opponent, or deal little KB.

+ Replacing the instant kill moves with Sap (defense down) and Buff (defense up) would have been better.

Still, regardless , Hero is loads of fun! I honestly only wanted him from the Fighter Pass, but I got the whole thing just so I could have access to more matchups with Hero!
 
D

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Haven't tried him out, but he looks like a character that's incredibly fun for casual play but simultaneously more viable than Robin. I'm completely expecting nerfs due to his damage output on his safe specials and hard to approach moveset.

But I can't wait to just bring Smash to social events, pick Hero, and then spam down b for the entire match.
 

Ben Holt

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Remember when people thought Little Mac was broken when Smash 3DS first came out, but now he's solidly bottom tier after people learned to play against his gimmick?
I got a feeling Hero will be like that, but to a lesser extent. His special moves are good, but his mobility is bad, his normal attacks are like like a slow Link, and his gimmick is dumb luck. Thwack has a lower chance to kill than Game and Watch's 9 at 0%, and Thwack already appears randomly, so compound probability is NOT on your side. Also, Game and Watch can combo into Side B, whereas Hero's Down B brings him to a complete halt.
So as stated before, Hero needs his Down B streamlined with a moderate nerf to Magic Burst, the only move that would be outright OP if Down B were consistent.
Edit: Critical Hits can be annoying, but they are still about as likely as a Game and Watch 9, but the base unlucky move is still good.
However, at a competitive level, kill moves are not often spammed to avoid staling. You won't often find pro level players using Smash Attacks at 50% hoping for a crit. But at a casual level, I understand the frustration.
 
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Xquirtle

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Remember when people thought Little Mac was broken when Smash 3DS first came out, but now he's solidly bottom tier after people learned to play against his gimmick?
I got a feeling Hero will be like that, but to a lesser extent. His special moves are good, but his mobility is bad, his normal attacks are like like a slow Link, and his gimmick is dumb luck. Thwack has a lower chance to kill than Game and Watch's 9 at 0%, and Thwack already appears randomly, so compound probability is NOT on your side. Also, Game and Watch can combo into Side B, whereas Hero's Down B brings him to a complete halt.
So as stated before, Hero needs his Down B streamlined with a moderate nerf to Magic Burst, the only move that would be outright OP if Down B were consistent.
Edit: Critical Hits can be annoying, but they are still about as likely as a Game and Watch 9, but the base unlucky move is still good.
However, at a competitive level, kill moves are not often spammed to avoid staling. You won't often find pro level players using Smash Attacks at 50% hoping for a crit. But at a casual level, I understand the frustration.
it might be fine if it just cycled through in the same order all of the time. Even without nerfing any of the abilities, i don't think that would out right break him. Maybe nerf magic burst as you've stated, all damage little knockback, since it is absurd when properly spaced at the ledge.
 

Steelmullet

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Also, hero kills at 20% in the middle of the stage with a crit. Kinda. overkill...I don't know what I think of that one.
 

Ben Holt

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Also, hero kills at 20% in the middle of the stage with a crit. Kinda. overkill...I don't know what I think of that one.
So can Mac's KO Punch, and that can be comboed into and also isn't random.

Also, after playing against plenty of Heroes online, I stand by my original analysis.
Neutral B is on par with Samus's. Probably slightly better, but close enough to see them equally.
Side B is really good. I underestimated it originally. If Hero lands outside of Low or Bottom Tier, it will be because of this move.
Up B has good recovery but is exploitable, so we'll call it average.
Down B is, as I originally stated, TOO RANDOM TO BE USEFUL.
A good player will know how to play against all of Hero's Down B options. Whack and Thwack are overhyped dice rolls. Kamikazee is good if caught on a lucky roll at the right time, but is not worth fishing for; Magic Burst is better 99% of the time. Snooze is decent as a lucky roll, but a projectile that cannot be spammed loses an insane amount of potential. The other projectiles are meh. Hatchet Man is about as likely to hit as a Falcon Punch. Magic Burst is bae; fish for it while ledge guarding.
As for critical hits, they are annoying but they are overhyped. KO Punch, Ganon's Smash Attacks, and Incineroar's Revenge + Smash Attack are all reliable moves that have similar kill power. A competent player will respect the crit, but a Hero player hoping for it is playing against the odds.
I originally stated that Hero's A attacks are like a slow Link, but now I see that they are more like a slow, less powerful Roy/Chrom. Hero's only advantage over these characters is his Special moveset, which I admit is a major advantage.

So my final verdict at this point is that I may not be as convinced as I was that Hero will be a bottom tier gimmick with Mac, but I still think that his Down B needs to be streamlined. I do not see his luck being consistent enough to carry him any higher than mid tier, if even that.
Standard rules are 3 stocks, best of 3 games. So luck is simply not a strategy. You may undeservingly lose one casual match or even one Elite Smash match here and there, but consistency is important in a high-tier character, and Hero just does not fit that bill.
If he's lucky, Hero might barely make mid tier, but a ban simply will NOT happen.
 

TriforceBun

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I love using Kaswoosh super low when people try to chase me offstage, then having it blast them into a stage spike. So satisfying~
 
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