Dr. Mario: Why is he NOT an echo?

[apaulieg]

Note: I edited this post. The original included my thought that Dr. Mario could be the original echo - but I had totally forgotten about Smash64, and the first two commenters reminded me of it!

In Melee, almost every one of Dr. Mario’s attacks uses nearly the exact same animations, but the properties of each hit are slightly different (different launch angles and knockback amounts, different damage or elemental effects, etc.). He has nearly identical frame data to Mario with slightly altered speed and a slightly worse recovery. That seems almost exactly how echoes function in this game.

Smash Ultimate revealed two of Sm4sh's clones as Echo Fighters: Dark Pit and Lucina - yet Dr. Mario was shown to be a unique fighter. His gameplay preview seems to show at least one new attack, his down air, being a stomp - yet the other gameplay we'd seen until yesterday was minimal. The treehouse session after the latest direct DOES show some Dr. Mario gameplay, and in it, he seems shockingly similar to Mario. His Doc Tornado is smaller and has more Priority than Luigi's, and from the gameplay, I saw a new back throw, a cape/sheet that hits at a different angle, and a new down aerial as all I saw that was new - he is slower and recovers worse than Mario but definitely has some oomph behind his attacks.

But at the same time, we've seen Chrom pull from Ike's up-special as opposed to his echo, Roy, and we just had a direct that shows Ken having various kicking attacks based upon his unique entries in Street Fighter, a differently functioning multi-hit version of Ryu's side special and up special, a kicking version of Ryu's down special, a different back throw, a different-looking neutral special, different movement speeds, and two unique final smashes. Yet Ken is an echo.

Doctor Mario uses the same skeleton as Mario, has incredibly similar but reskinned and slightly altered specials with the exception of his down special - pulled from another character, Luigi - one identifiably different aerial, and different attributes and attack properties (knockback, special effects, etc.). I can't help but feel like Ken is less of an echo to Ryu than Dr. Mario is to Mario.

So what gives? I'm happy to have Dr. Mario in the roster, and I'm even happy that he's a unique character - he just doesn't feel as unique as even some of the echo fighters are. To anyone who has watched the Treehouse Live gameplay, am I missing any tremendously different tilts/smashes/aerials? Am I overstating Ken's differences? Are echoes limited to totally different characters and not alternate forms of the same (like Mario/Dr. Mario or Toon Link/Young Link)? Why do you think Dr. Mario is NOT an echo of Mario?

 

[godogod]

He's not the original echo. Sakurai himself said that was Luigi.

 

[BonafideFella]

No, Luigi was only fleshed out in Melee with the Green Missile. He was the original Echo in the first game.
First echo in the first game = First echo. Period.

 

[apaulieg]

I feel like an idiot. I totally forgot about Smash 64.

I’m going to edit this thread’s title and first post, since I really only mentioned that as background for discussion as to whether he should be an echo in SSBU

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Attribute differences could explain why Dr. Mario isn't an Echo Fighter, but Ken pretty much threw a curve ball when it was revealed that he moves faster than Ryu.

 

[meleebrawler]

Attribute differences could explain why Dr. Mario isn't an Echo Fighter, but Ken pretty much threw a curve ball when it was revealed that he moves faster than Ryu.

He seems to have a ton of new attack animations besides dair, such as the sheet he swings upward (thought this was a new utilt at first), and his back throw where he just chucks the opponent over his head.

 

[apaulieg]

He seems to have a ton of new attack animations besides dair, such as the sheet he swings upward (thought this was a new utilt at first), and his back throw where he just chucks the opponent over his head.

I definitely see those three, but I’m still confused as to why Ken can get multiple different kick animations, a different back throw animation, changed properties and effects on all his specials if not additionally animations (Down Special particularly), and two new Final smashes in addition to changed attributes. We haven’t seen all of Dr. Mario’s attacks, but Ken seems to have at least one different tilt, unique final smashes, a different back throw, and a different animation on his down special. Dr. Mario has a different back throw, at least one different aerial, a different animation on his side special, and a very similar-to-Mario final smash.

I’m starting to think echoes can’t be “different forms” of the same character - like Young Link and Toon Link, despite being very similarly built and having similar movesets, are both “Link”. And Dr. Mario, despite potentially being as similar to Mario as Ken is to Ryu, is still “Mario”. By that logic, Shadow Mario could be an echo, but not Dr. Mario.

Edit: Dr. Mario also has Doc tornado. And I guess the vitamins interact with the environment differently than fireballs. I’m curious to see what else is totally unique to push him into semiclone territory, and I’m also curious as to what else is unique about Ken to push the limits of what an echo can be.

 

[Erimir]

It was a missed opportunity not doing something with the viruses.

The idea occurred to me that Dr. Mario could use Fever, Chill and Weird somehow in his move set... Either as a special attack (probably side special) or as his f-smash. They could be either in a set order or random... Obviously, they would have some effects, with Fever having a fire effect, Chill having an ice effect, of course. Weird is more flexible and could have a paralyze or flower effect or something else.

This seems to me like an obvious way to declone him further. But I guess you could argue that the doctor would not purposely infect people. On the other hand, he's not exactly following the Hippocratic oath when he's punching people in the face.

 

[Folt]

I definitely see those three, but I’m still confused as to why Ken can get multiple different kick animations, a different back throw animation, changed properties and effects on all his specials if not additionally animations (Down Special particularly), and two new Final smashes in addition to changed attributes. We haven’t seen all of Dr. Mario’s attacks, but Ken seems to have at least one different tilt, unique final smashes, a different back throw, and a different animation on his down special. Dr. Mario has a different back throw, at least one different aerial, a different animation on his side special, and a very similar-to-Mario final smash.

I’m starting to think echoes can’t be “different forms” of the same character - like Young Link and Toon Link, despite being very similarly built and having similar movesets, are both “Link”. And Dr. Mario, despite potentially being as similar to Mario as Ken is to Ryu, is still “Mario”. By that logic, Shadow Mario could be an echo, but not Dr. Mario.

Edit: Dr. Mario also has Doc tornado. And I guess the vitamins interact with the environment differently than fireballs. I’m curious to see what else is totally unique to push him into semiclone territory, and I’m also curious as to what else is unique about Ken to push the limits of what an echo can be.

Probably because Dr. Mario no longer plays even remotely similiar to Mario: Mario is focused on comboing the enemy, while Dr. Mario is more of a single hard hit kind of character with some simple combos. Ryu and Ken, while having different animations and at times moves, are both oriented around combos.

But if I remember correctly, between the two Marios:

Only proportions are similiar. Jump speed, dash speed, jump height, weight, and how fast they fall are all different.

Dr. Mario's attacks pretty much all deal higher damage and have much stronger knockback, meaning he's much more focused on getting in a few blows before going for the KO.

Dr. Mario's nair is the famous reverse sex kick; the kick that is weak at the beginning and stronger afterwards.

Dr. Mario's fair does not spike, being a more conventional KO tool instead.

Dr. Mario has a new dair that's not even remotely similiar to Mario's dair, being more like Donkey Kong or Ganondorf's dairs.

Dr. Mario's f-smash is electric instead of fire and relies much less on sweet-spotting it to be effective.

New b-throw. Quicker than Mario's but without the potential for collateral damage.

All of his specials have at least one notable difference from Mario's. Megavitamins bounce higher and fall faster and are counted as physical projectiles since Smash 4. Super Sheet has always been worse horizontally but better vertically, and the animation has been changed to reflect that. Super Jump Punch has no coins and is powerful at the beginning of the move but weaker after (though it's nothing like Luigi's version). Finally, he retains the Tornado as his Down Special instead of using something similiar to FLUDD.

 

[godogod]

I'm really dissapointed they made Dr Mario slow in smash 4. That was unnecessary. Hopefully they can patch him to be regular Mario's speed.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm really dissapointed they made Dr Mario slow in smash 4. That was unnecessary. Hopefully they can patch him to be regular Mario's speed.

Your choice: frame data or mobility.

 

[godogod]

Your choice: frame data or mobility.

Both? Dr Mario was already an inferior Mario in terms of combo potential, recovery, and some frame data. Dash speed is just another one that is unnecessary.

 

[meleebrawler]

Both? Dr Mario was already an inferior Mario in terms of combo potential, recovery, and some frame data. Dash speed is just another one that is unnecessary.

Only his dair, everything else was pretty much identical in frame data (ie extremely good). His problem was more that the devs didn't go far enough in giving Doc power to compensate for being less mobile.

 

[Grunky Peep]

Delete this.

 

[WeirdJoe27]

Dr. Mario isn't an Echo because he was introduced in Melee as a new character, even though he was a "clone". It's the same reason characters considered clones that were introduced prior to Smash 4 are not Echos in Ultimate.

While both Mario and Doc share the same body size (which is what differentiates Villager and Isabelle), here are some major changes between the two:
-Different weight, speed & jump height
-More power all around
-Different back throw
-Side special has a different animation and may have slightly different properties/hitbox
-Megavitamins are nothing at all like Fireballs
-Down special Tornado is not F.L.U.D.D.
-His Smash attacks have different properties all around (electric effect, as well as different launch angles)
-Dair is totally different
-Fair has different properties
-Up special acts very differently

 

[GunBlaze]

Different weight

Only in PAL Melee. Outside of that, Doc has had identical weight.

 

[WeirdJoe27]

Only in PAL Melee. Outside of that, Doc has had identical weight.

I know he did in Smash 4, but I'm talking about Ultimate. I've heard that Doc is heavier in Ultimate, but I guess that hasn't been 100% confirmed yet.

 

[kirbsmash]

I know he did in Smash 4, but I'm talking about Ultimate. I've heard that Doc is heavier in Ultimate, but I guess that hasn't been 100% confirmed yet.

Do you add his back throw?

 

[solskenslakt]

I agree he should be classified as an echo. In the Smash 4 character select screen he's even grouped together with Lucina and Dark Pit, all of them specifically not near their respective series' other fighters. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[meleebrawler]

I agree he should be classified as an echo. In the Smash 4 character select screen he's even grouped together with Lucina and Dark Pit, all of them specifically not near their respective series' other fighters. It just doesn't make sense.

HIs differences are just too large to be an echo at this point. His mobility is drastically different, unlike Ken & Dark Samus where it's only slightly different, and has completely different moves as well. May as well say Luigi should still be an echo at this point too.

 

[solskenslakt]

HIs differences are just too large to be an echo at this point. His mobility is drastically different, unlike Ken & Dark Samus where it's only slightly different, and has completely different moves as well. May as well say Luigi should still be an echo at this point too.

I think Ken and Chrom are different enough from the fighters they're echoes of to be considered similar cases to Dr. Mario. Sure, he's clearly different from Mario but not enough to be compared to Luigi or Roy and their respective original fighters. Dark Samus, Daisy, Dark Pit and I guess Lucina are obvious echoes but I don't understand why Chrom is an echo and Dr Mario isn't. It's just inconsistent and incongruous in my opinion.

 

[WeirdJoe27]

I think Ken and Chrom are different enough from the fighters they're echoes of to be considered similar cases to Dr. Mario. Sure, he's clearly different from Mario but not enough to be compared to Luigi or Roy and their respective original fighters. Dark Samus, Daisy, Dark Pit and I guess Lucina are obvious echoes but I don't understand why Chrom is an echo and Dr Mario isn't. It's just inconsistent and incongruous in my opinion.

Read my post from above and I think you'll better understand why Doc isn't an Echo. While there are many changes between he and Mario, the biggest reason he's not classified as an Echo in Ultimate is because he was introduced as a newcomer in Melee, thus he already has his own number. No Clones/Echos introduced prior to Smash 4 are labeled as Echos in Ultimate.

Also, as Sakurai mentioned in a recent interview, if he wants to label a character as an Echo or not, that's his decision.

 

[solskenslakt]

Read my post from above and I think you'll better understand why Doc isn't an Echo. While there are many changes between he and Mario, the biggest reason he's not classified as an Echo in Ultimate is because he was introduced as a newcomer in Melee, thus he already has his own number. No Clones/Echos introduced prior to Smash 4 are labeled as Echos in Ultimate.

Also, as Sakurai mentioned in a recent interview, if he wants to label a character as an Echo or not, that's his decision.

Oh, totally. I did read your post and that's basically the only possible reason that makes sense to me. But it still irks me because by today's Smash standards he should be one.

 

[TheYungLink]

Dr. Mario was added back in Melee, when even clones that shared all the animations of their base character (Young Link, Roy, Falco, etc.) still had vastly different properties on nearly every move, in an effort to make these fighters feel unique even if they animated the same. Note how none of the Melee clones are considered Echo Fighters--all of them received more differences in their animations to suit the properties the moves always had, as well as new / adjusted attacks to suit their differing playstyle.

Dr. Mario is unique, ironically, in that he is, on a fundamental level, just Mario throwing pills instead of fireballs--that's the entire design philosophy behind him, not even being a different character with a different personality like Falco. While the trophies of most clones in Melee detailed their numerous differences, Dr. Mario's trophy in Melee goes out of its way to point out that the differences are subtle, but they're there, effectively acknowledging the lack of any SIGNIFICANT differences. This makes Dr. Mario in Melee the closest thing we ever had to a true Echo Fighter before Lucina and Dark Pit were introduced in Smash 4--but then Smash 4 happened and, when deciding to bring Dr. Mario back, they gave him the treatment that Ganondorf and Falco had gotten in Brawl, where Dr. Mario received significantly more differences. This is ultimately because Dr. Mario had a significant difference from regular Mario in that he still had his Dr. Tornado down B instead of F.L.U.D.D., which meant that unlike Dark Pit, you can't play him and Mario the same way with the same playstyle at all, so the Smash team capitalized on the opportunity and made him more different since they'd play nothing alike anyway.

Basically, Dr. Mario isn't an Echo Fighter because Smash 4 happened. I imagine if Brawl never gave Mario F.L.U.D.D., Dr. Mario skipped that game, and Smash 4 or Ultimate brought him back, in either scenario he'd be labeled an Echo Fighter. But stuff happened, so even though he's fundamentally just Mario wearing a lab coat and throwing pills, he's a semi-clone now like Falco due to the emergent gameplay differences to regular Mario's moveset in his absence.

 

[agagagagagag]

he has a phd. that demands respect.

 

[_Brawler]

Doc has a way different playstyle than mario, most people are seeing him as better than mario anyways.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Toomai on SmashWiki is analyzing the clones in Ultimate and Dr. Mario is 91.7% of a clone of Mario. The 90's are within his range of what he considers clones. So yeah, Doc deserves that Echo label and a spot next to Mario. Toomai has analyzed three pairs so far with Mario/Luigi at 43.9% in the semi-clone range, Mario/Dr. Mario at 91%, and Peach/Daisy at 100%. I guess he doesn't count animations since Peach and Daisy have different taunts and animations? He hasn't analyzed the other Ultimate characters yet but he is suspecting Ken might fall in his semi-clone range that covers between 40%-80%. If an admin of a fansite finds a non-Echo to be more of an Echo than an official Echo, Sakurai's got some explaining to do.

 

[WeirdJoe27]

If an admin of a fansite finds a non-Echo to be more of an Echo than an official Echo, Sakurai's got some explaining to do.

Not really, though. Sakurai already explained that he decides which characters receive the Echo label and which don't.

Also, which official Echo character is less of an Echo than Doc according to this site? I'm very curious.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

He's not done with his Cloneosity, but he suspects Ken might be less of an Echo than Doc. But I don't know. He's only determined the clone status of Luigi, Doc and Daisy. He still needs to compare Young Link to Link, Toon Link to Link, Ganondorf to Captain Falcon, Dark Samus to Samus, Falco to Fox, Wolf to Fox, Pichu to Pikachu, Lucas to Ness, Lucina to Marth, Roy to Marth, Chrom to Roy, Dark Pit to Pit, Ken to Ryu and Richter to Simon. He hasn't proved any Echoes as less of a clone than Doc, but he thinks Ken may be a potential candidate to disprove the whole Echo thing.

 

[WeirdJoe27]

He's not done with his Cloneosity, but he suspects Ken might be less of an Echo than Doc. But I don't know. He's only determined the clone status of Luigi, Doc and Daisy. He still needs to compare Young Link to Link, Toon Link to Link, Ganondorf to Captain Falcon, Dark Samus to Samus, Falco to Fox, Wolf to Fox, Pichu to Pikachu, Lucas to Ness, Lucina to Marth, Roy to Marth, Chrom to Roy, Dark Pit to Pit, Ken to Ryu and Richter to Simon. He hasn't proved any Echoes as less of a clone than Doc, but he thinks Ken may be a potential candidate to disprove the whole Echo thing.

Sakurai himself said that he felt Ken was different enough from Ryu to not be labeled an echo, but since he decides who gets that distinction and who doesn't... Ken is an echo.

I'll be interested to read the Cloneosity report once it's finished.

 

[Folt]

He's not done with his Cloneosity, but he suspects Ken might be less of an Echo than Doc. But I don't know. He's only determined the clone status of Luigi, Doc and Daisy. He still needs to compare Young Link to Link, Toon Link to Link, Ganondorf to Captain Falcon, Dark Samus to Samus, Falco to Fox, Wolf to Fox, Pichu to Pikachu, Lucas to Ness, Lucina to Marth, Roy to Marth, Chrom to Roy, Dark Pit to Pit, Ken to Ryu and Richter to Simon. He hasn't proved any Echoes as less of a clone than Doc, but he thinks Ken may be a potential candidate to disprove the whole Echo thing.

I can answer Young Link to Link and Pichu to Pikachu: They were approached in the same way as Dr. Mario to Mario where the animations on most moves are basically the same; the trio of Melee clones being essentially clones but not exactly echoes with the possible exception of Ken, mostly for the same reasons: Keeping stuff from their parents' old movesets that are no longer used combined with the differences and variances from the parent character that they exhibited prior to Ultimate:

Doc kept the Tornado, his reverse sex kick, the variances in his other specials that IMHO sets him more apart from Mario (the more vertical side special, the phhysical projectile neutral special, and the generally all around powerful up special), the electric F-smash, a different dair (twice), and is now noticeably slower with a worse jump. Also got a new back throw for Ultimate.

Young Link stayed left-handed (resulting in mirrored animations... or maybe it's better to say that the new Link is mirrored from the old ones) and kept the old dash attack, fire arrow, hookshot, and the multi-hit ground Spin Attack & bombs + being lighter and faster than his adult version. Also no sword beams.

Pichu kept the old nair and the electric move self-damage trait + it's even lighter and speedier traits + the properties on his specials that differentiated them from Pikachu's in Melee.

Also checked Toon Link: He and Young Link are now closer to one another in terms of similiarity than Toon Link is to Link, due to the changes brought by the Breath of the Wild version. I believe Toon Link now has Link's old bombs though. Still doesn't have kick attacks in his moveset or multi-hit forward & up smash attacks and his Spin Attack stays a multi-hit move on the ground. His dair is still a stall-then-fall attack compared to the bouncing dairs of the other Links.

 

[Xelrog]

Dr. Mario has more move differences than most echo characters, including Ken. I think he's different enough to not be an echo. Pichu, however, has no such excuse. All the same moves with a handful of different properties.

 

[ASAP_Smash]

He’s not an echo fighter because his clone attributes are taken from both Mario and Luigi. In fact, most of the mechanics of his attacks are taken from Luigi like his up air, down air, and up b. Furthermore, his strength and speed modifiers range between the bros. With that said, he maintains independence from them with certain traits like the reverse sex kick, the dash attack launch angle, and having the highest traction of the three. Every game he’s been in he seems to be a slight mixture of both Mario&Luigi with some unique spins added.

 

[Mapet]

I took a look at Toomai's findings here.

With that, I think this is a good understanding of what's going on:

* Melee clones were introduced as new characters and are treated as such in Ultimate. We see this through the fact that none of these characters, even those who remain clones in Ultimate, are considered echoes.

* Smash 4 newcomer clones are considered echos. My guess is that Smash 4's development isn't too far in the past, and perhaps Ultimate's Echoes concept is representative of Sakurai's intentions when creating these characters in Smash 4.
* This brings up an interesting wrinkle. Dr. Mario is grouped with Dark Pit and Lucina as clones in Smash 4, but not an echo in Ultimate. My best guess is that Sakurai didn't decide to make the distinction between Melee veteran clones and Smash 4 clones until Ultimate's development. Note that Dr. Mario is the only Melee veteran clone to remain as s clone in Smash 4. I'd bet that if the remaining Melee clones (Pichu and Young Link) were brought back for Smash 4 and had no meaningful changes, they too would be grouped here.

* Newcomer echoes are clones... with one exception. Perhaps Ken had more time in the oven or the team had a stronger desire to make him unique and more true to the character.


so tl;dr Pre-smash 4 clones = Separate characters. Smash 4 clones = Echoes. Ultimate clones = Echoes. Ken was simply the favorite child and got more work.

 

[Xelrog]

This brings up an interesting wrinkle. Dr. Mario is grouped with Dark Pit and Lucina as clones in Smash 4

Where and according to who? I don't recall anywhere in game where the word "clone" even appears. The very idea of clones/echoes never got any kind of official, Nintendo-sanctioned commentary at all until Ultimate.

 

[Mapet]

Where and according to who? I don't recall anywhere in game where the word "clone" even appears. The very idea of clones/echoes never got any kind of official, Nintendo-sanctioned commentary at all until Ultimate.

The character select screen.

 

[Xelrog]

Okay, you mean that Doc, Dark Pit, and Lucina are all next to one another. That's fair.

I stand by my first post in the thread insofar as I think all the original clones have been differentiated enough by Ultimate to not be considered echoes, save for Pichu, who shares all the same moves with only numerically tweaked properties.