Down Throw to Up Air vs Up Throw to Up Air

[TheSMASHtyke]

Or Beep Boop vs Boop Boop. Or Robo Hoo Hah vs Robo Hah Hah.

So with the latest patch, our Up Throw decided it was tired of impersonating Ness's Back Throw and decided Lucario's Up Throw makes a much cooler throw to rip off. We're all sad Up Throw's insane killing power is gone (still a kill throw, though), but we've now got a throw that's better than Down Throw in a few situations. I think we ought to have a discussion and test where exactly it's better to use Up Throw rather than Down Throw.

Some things to consider about Up Throw:

• Up Throw does more damage than Down Throw. Up Throw does 12% and Down Throw does 10%
• Up Throw has lower initial knockback than Down Throw.
• Up Throw on some characters can lead into Up Throw into Up Smash, wracking up the most damage than any up air follow up with 27% total if both are fresh.
• Up Throw has higher Knock Back gain than Down Throw. Again, initially it's knockback is even lower. At about 50% vs mario, they go roughly the same distance vertically. Past that, Up Throw goes higher and higher
• Up Throw is still a useful kill move, so even if it can wrack up more damage in a situation, it may be better to stick with Down Throw to keep Up Throw fresh.
• I am uncertain which one has the most hitstun to it.

Please chime in with your input!

 

[Jams.]

Some more differences from personal experience:

• ROB can act out of dthrow sooner than he can act out of uthrow. There's a noticeable period after uthrow where ROB has landed but can't do anything.
• uthrow seems more susceptible to DI.

Also, I think hitstun is calculated based on a move's knockback. At least, it was calculated this way in Melee.

I think dthrow is definitively better for securing uair kills off of reads. At those percents, uthrow sends the opponent further and DI away lets the opponent get out of follow-ups easily. I also believe dthrow is better at mid percent (>30%) in most cases, as it's more difficult to DI and makes the uair follow-up easier. uthrow might have situation use at this percent to combo into fair and send the opponent offstage, but dthrow seems better overall.

I do think the new uthrow is better at very low percents however (<10%, or in some cases at 0%). Holynightmare said in the ROB Skype chat that heavies are unable to DI uthrow at 0% for some reason, leading to some nasty followups. Some possible low percent follow-ups for ROB's uthrow:

• uair (works at higher %)
  
• fair (potential edgeguard, works at higher %)
  
• up angled fsmash (only works around 0%, only against fastfallers, only if they don't DI inward, if they DI outward it could sourspot)
• up angled ftilt (suboptimal, just included it to be comprehensive)
• utilt (works till 10%~, only works on DI inward, can lead to more utilts or uair)
• usmash (works till 15%~, can be avoided earlier by DI outward)

You can also try to bait an airdodge for a harder punish. Fastfallers might suffer airdodge landing lag if they try to airdodge out of this at 0%. Also, you can probably notice from my list of follow-ups that the optimal DI for this throw is outward (or away from ROB). Honestly, I'm not too sure how to best punish an opponent that DIs this way.

Another follow-up I neglected to mention because Holynightmare said it doesn't work is footstool. I really hope that's not true though, because footstool leads into cool things and it would make this patch less awful if they were real.

 

[Brickbox]

Wow if footstool works on certain characters that would be a really big advancement for rob, I really hope it is true.
Maybe we could get someone to do some testing to find out when it works and when it doesn't or why it doesn't work.

Also out of all these things listed what is the most reliable if the opponent DI's away?
Can perfect pivoting help lead into things? perfect pivoting was kinda just a fad to make people think this game had useful tech, but I feel like it might actually help lead to combos from up throw.

 

[Crome]

Wow if footstool works on certain characters that would be a really big advancement for rob, I really hope it is true.
Maybe we could get someone to do some testing to find out when it works and when it doesn't or why it doesn't work.

Also out of all these things listed what is the most reliable if the opponent DI's away?
Can perfect pivoting help lead into things? perfect pivoting was kinda just a fad to make people think this game had useful tech, but I feel like it might actually help lead to combos from up throw.

Would using upthrow at 0 percent lead to a foostool, which then leads to more follow ups?

I'm totally messing with this once I get the chance, I didn't even think of foot stool combo starter.

 

[Jams.]

Wow if footstool works on certain characters that would be a really big advancement for rob, I really hope it is true.
Maybe we could get someone to do some testing to find out when it works and when it doesn't or why it doesn't work.

Also out of all these things listed what is the most reliable if the opponent DI's away?
Can perfect pivoting help lead into things? perfect pivoting was kinda just a fad to make people think this game had useful tech, but I feel like it might actually help lead to combos from up throw.

Fair is definitely the most reliable option if they DI away, and uthrow->fair does 19% if both are fresh. This has the potential to lead to more fairs, even at higher percent. It's a good option if you want to carry the opponent offstage IMO. Uair is also pretty reliable, but the input is decently tight, especially at lower percents. I've found it easier to uthrow->uair at >20%.

Perfect pivot utilt lets you catch more DI options, but still misses if they DI completely outward. I haven't really seen an advantage from perfect pivot usmash over walking usmash, though I might be doing something wrong. Neither combos on DI outward unfortunately.

 

[Brickbox]

I have been sh fair after up throw when they are at 0 because is puts the opponents in a position where they have to land right in front of you and you basically just have to guess whether or not they are going to press a button or not and you get a free punish.

Also at low percents you can do full hop fair into falling up air into the ground, it isn't a true combo but the options to get out is unsafe.

Overall my thoughts on up throw vs down throw at low percents are
Up throw: give you a better situation and possibilities for big damage by using fair/reading DI, but only guarantees smaller amounts of damage.
D throw: gives you guaranteed good damage but the situation is pretty easy to get set back to neutral

 

[PUK]

Would using upthrow at 0 percent lead to a foostool, which then leads to more follow ups?

I'm totally messing with this once I get the chance, I didn't even think of foot stool combo starter.

Can we even jab lock?

 

[Crome]

Can we even jab lock?

Maybe with Dtilt? I don't know if we have any set ups though.

 

[Jams.]

Can we even jab lock?

ROB can jab lock with dtilt, ftilt (at low percents) and fair (at low percents). I think he can also jab lock with his jab, though it whiffs on a lot of prone characters, and sourspotted dair, though I'm not as sure about that.

 

[Pixel_]

ROB can jab lock with dtilt, ftilt (at low percents) and fair (at low percents). I think he can also jab lock with his jab, though it whiffs on a lot of prone characters, and sourspotted dair, though I'm not as sure about that.

Quote directly from MySmashCorner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZJx5F0kTms):
"Rob: D-tilt, F-tilt, F-air"
It doesn't mention D-air, and I also sort of doubt it's outdated because Mewtwo's finally there.