Down throw tech chase

[Sun God Leto]

Heyo, I play fox and a buddy of mine plays charizard. It seems that he can cover every single option of mine out of down throw with reaction. Is there something I'm missing? I understand the tech timing so its not that I'm not teching but i could spend an entire stock just getting chased. When I let my self go off the edge with down throw i'm at a position where i have to double jump and up b to get back on stage which as fox is a very bad position. So I'm just unsure, is there some way to get out that I'm missing?

 

[Sun God Leto]

Probably should clarify, he regrabs off every option back into d throw

 

[Sun God Leto]

When I get the possibility I'll try to link a video of it

 

[Mera Mera]

If you fail to tech on purpose, then the only way for Zard to regrab you is to do d-tilt -> regrab which is strict timing if he wants the d-tilt to come out before you can getup attack. D-tilit -> grab only works from like 10-30% or so (not sure on the exact percents). Also, if you're not by a ledge, then tech away will let you spotdodge/roll/attack before Zard can regrab. If you're by the ledge, you could instead tech towards him and then on the next d-throw tech away.

Typically if you do a no tech, the Zard player will either jab or u-smash you. As a fastfaller, it's true that Zard (and many other characters) will get a lot of punishment on you from a grab... unfortunately u-smash can lead to platform tech chases with more u-smashes, and jab can lead to tech chases (on the ground or on a platform) or straight up combos.

 

[BluntedMask]

Zard's downthrow if the player has the reactions for it is the equivalent of shiek techchasing falcon in melee.
You can hope they mess up, or take a chance with a no-tech so they jab you.

 

[JOE!]

But then jab can lead to combos or even a regrab vs FF'ers

 

[Mera Mera]

Jab will send them off stage if they are close to the edge and DI down and away (mostly away I think(?)). At lower percents you might get a regrab from jab, but I find that down tilt is better for this (albeit it's harder to do in time after d-throw). But yeah, no matter what you do, if you're a fastfaller against Zard and get grabbed, you're gonna be hit by percent, bad stage position, or both. You are going to get punished fairly hard.

@ Sun God Leto keep in mind that Zard has no way to jab reset someone, so his only option for a regrab at no tech is to combo into a grab, which only works at low percents, and might not work at all with proper DI (?).

@My fellow Zards, I've noticed that f-smash is actually very useful in some tech situations. If you down throw them near a ledge, wavedash back and start charging f-smash. Since there's a sweetspot both at the beginning and the end of f-smash, you can hit them pretty hard regardless of the tech option they choose. Your wavedash back on top of the pull back from the charge will make a get up attack miss, and the other tech options are covered as well. Keep in mind that they are only invincible for the first 20 frames of their tech roll (which lasts a total of 40 frames), so if they tech towards you you don't have to wait for their tech to come to a stop before releasing the f-smash. I sometimes use this even when tech away will let them escape simply because they can't really punish it and if they choose any other tech option they will die.

Edit: Actually they will get away if they tech stand if you are doing this from a down throw, since they'll be able to shield/roll in time. Typically at best they'll stand tech -> shield -> fall of the ledge from the f-smash, but they could roll behind you for better stage position if they are familiar with this trick. That said, if you can start charging an f-smash before they land, then it can cover the tech stand... like if you jab a fast faller and they're about to land near the ledge you can go a bit in front of them and charge the f-smash and release it at different timings depending on the tech option they choose.

 

[metroid1117]

Zard's downthrow if the player has the reactions for it is the equivalent of shiek techchasing falcon in melee.
You can hope they mess up, or take a chance with a no-tech so they jab you.

Charizard's DThrow tech chase is more akin to Fox's/Falco's DThrows, considering that they put the opponent in similar positions (directly onto the ground) and Charizard's was adjusted to have the same lag as those throws since 2.5. Unlike Sheik's DThrow, in which the lag from the throw is finished before the opponent lands on the ground, Charizard may still be in lag while the opponent is teching; this makes the timing for following up based on the opponent's weight. Heavier opponents are harder to follow up on, whereas lighter opponents (like Fox) are easier to follow up on.

Heyo, I play fox and a buddy of mine plays charizard. It seems that he can cover every single option of mine out of down throw with reaction. Is there something I'm missing? I understand the tech timing so its not that I'm not teching but i could spend an entire stock just getting chased. When I let my self go off the edge with down throw i'm at a position where i have to double jump and up b to get back on stage which as fox is a very bad position. So I'm just unsure, is there some way to get out that I'm missing?

Fox is a light character, which makes him easier to DThrow tech chase. However, if your friend is that good at covering teching options, you can either try missing your tech (which others have suggested) or keep rolling towards the edge. If you get DThrown at the edge of the stage, you'll be thrown off similar to Fox/Falco's DThrows, except the KB is low enough that you'll have enough time to meteor cancel with your double jump and/or edgetech against the side of the stage. It's a much riskier option considering that you're putting yourself offstage against a Charizard, but it might be worth a shot at low %s where it's easier to meteor cancel.

 

[Mera Mera]

However, if your friend is that good at covering teching options, you can either try missing your tech (which others have suggested) or keep rolling towards the edge. If you get DThrown at the edge of the stage, you'll be thrown off similar to Fox/Falco's DThrows, except the KB is low enough that you'll have enough time to meteor cancel with your double jump and/or edgetech against the side of the stage. It's a much riskier option considering that you're putting yourself offstage against a Charizard, but it might be worth a shot at low %s where it's easier to meteor cancel.

While I agree it could be worth a shot, the Zard player can technically avoid this. Since Zard can grab from a distance, Zard is never forced to grab so close to the ledge where the opponent has the option to go off the platform/stage. I personally make an effort to grab from a distance when they are on platforms to avoid them teching below me (when I go for a grab during a tech chase on platforms, which is admittedly not often since charge d-smash or wait under and react with up-tilt/up-smash both seem like more reliable options).

 

[menotyou135]

You basically have 5 options when he dthrows you.

Tech toward him. Tech away from him. Tech in place. Roll toward him. Roll away from him. Get up attack.

Zard has an answer to all of these that can lead into another grab or an attack. However, in order to keep grabbing you, he has to read what you will do. If you constantly tech toward him, he will know to dash back and grab. If you constantly get up attack, he will know to shield grab you. If you constantly tech/roll away, he will know to dash forward.

Getting out of the tech chase is all mindgames. Switch between what direction you are teching often and throw in a get up attack every so often. If you are predictable, you are dead. Another option is to try to convince him that you are following a pattern and then immediately mix up that pattern.

For example, my friend likes to use get up attack twice in a row, forcing me to either shield or to a quick dash dance into re-grab. Then on the third throw, he mixes up with a roll to throw me off because I expect get up attack.

Teching in place is usually not a good idea but if you read that he is about to dash dance quickly or do something strange you can mix up with it, but it is the easiest option for zard to cover.

Because of this, if you tech, you have essentially 2 options. If you stay on the ground you have 3, but you give the zard more time to think. Overall tho, that extra option tends to make not teching superior to teching.

Again tho, it is all mind games. Think of it as rock paper scissors where you auto lose the ties. If you make him think you are going to throw out one option and then do another option, you are more likely to break the string.