Down Throw Follow Up Chart

[allshort17]

One thing I'm waiting for people to try against Wario, when you CG him and you get to the end of the stage, instead of grab releasing and getting a hit, grab release and dash grab regrab. Even if there is a little bit of space, dash grab won't go off the edge. So, you'll get extra damage while still getting you grab release.

 

[Queen B. Kyon]

I'm a nub when it comes to everything that isn't peach. So ill try to do it in tournament. Even though peach beats wario too.

 

[P.I.E.]

i LOVE that i have that on ness now btw


soooo sexy having a kill throw at 120 now

-cries- Sakurai must hate ness Q////A////Q

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

anyone know if the first weak single hit on dair can jab lock? lol

 

[allshort17]

anyone know if the first weak single hit on dair can jab lock? lol

Appearenly the weak hit of bair can. But, what do you planning to do involving the first hit of dair? lol

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

never miiiiind


ddd's footstools too high, wouldn't be applicable for wut i wanted

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Does double jump cancel the footstool animation?

Footstool > double jump > fast fall

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

nope, we just go way too high

 

[allshort17]

Something does cancel the footstool animation though. When I practice grab release to footstool on Wario, I often have been able to stop Dedede from going so high and fastfalling to the ground easily. I don't know what causes it though. I thought it was a instant double jump, but maybe it's something else. Perhaps it's linked to the fastfall?

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

find out plz!!!

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I've noticed that too.....

Looks like I've got a new project. Seibrik, I expect gold from you if I can figure out the mechanics behind this. I have a few ideas...

 

[1PokeMastr]

There are two types of Foot stools.

A Hard and Soft.

A hard makes you rocket upward with a lot of height.
A soft makes you jump very low from it.

What you're experiencing is probably the soft one.

 

[allshort17]

How do you get the soft one?

 

[GanonkingAbyss]

I've also had questions about how the game decides how many footstools you can do before hitting the ground. I tried different things with the height of each jump and the timing but I couldn't figure anything out since the results were always different.

 

[Exdeath]

In regard to Dair jab locking, two possibilities that come to mind Use aerial to knock someone off a platform>Dair (e.g. dash grab air release onto a platform>option-select: Fair/Bair and connect or they shield Fair/Bair>DJ while they slip off the platform and then FFDair) or foot stool>platform cancel>fall through>Dair. The frame advantage might be enough for a guaranteed Dsmash or setting up a safe Fsmash by the ledge.

 

[allshort17]

Did not know you can footstool to platform cancel. The problem arises if you get more than one hit though. I think you have a 1 frame window every three frames just to get one hit. It will be pretty strict, but learnable. It seems safer to just land and jab though.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I've also had questions about how the game decides how many footstools you can do before hitting the ground. I tried different things with the height of each jump and the timing but I couldn't figure anything out since the results were always different.

There's a set number in the character pac file.

 

[Exdeath]

Did not know you can footstool to platform cancel. The problem arises if you get more than one hit though. I think you have a 1 frame window every three frames just to get one hit. It will be pretty strict, but learnable. It seems safer to just land and jab though.

Hitting with only the first hit of Dair is about as difficult as hitting with strong Bair. I don't think that the window to jab lock is consistently large enough to fall through>Jab 1 from a foot stool. The main reason to use Dair instead of Jab 1 is because it's easier and faster to Dair>action than to cancel Jab 1>action. Also, I'm not sure if this is true or not, but if it is then DDD can get 2% more damage by using Dair>Jab 1 to start a lock series since Dair's initial hit isn't as SDIable as Jab 1 is.

P.S. I'm not certain whether or not this is true for every character, but I'm pretty sure that there are FH and SH foot stool variations.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

P.S. I'm not certain whether or not this is true for every character, but I'm pretty sure that there are FH and SH foot stool variations.

This is true.

 

[1PokeMastr]

How do you get the soft one?

Just like normal jumping.

Short hopping and Full hopping jump inputs are the same for foot stools.

 

[Doc King]

Would King Dedede be able to down throw trap Jigglypuff into a d smash or something on an upward slope? I know Jigglypuff can just air dodge before landing on a flat stage, but would slopes actually trap? Would this apply to other characters that can DI?

This could actually give something for D3 on lightweights if it works.

Edit: For example, the fast fallers like Fox can just be able to air dodge when they DI all the way up on flats.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

>.<

I have told you, Doc King.

Numerous times.

That Dedede has nothing on Jigglypuff.

NOTHING.

NOTHING, EVER.

 

[Queen B. Kyon]

I would think she is far too floaty for anything to happen.

 

[Doc King]

Damn that ****ing sucks. But it's Puff and she sucks so bad so it doesn't really matter.

Could we do other air attacks out of down throw or like traps out of down throw like a character can shield at a point but can't counter attack or do anything in time for a grab?

Also Dedede can walk of on Bowser, DK, Wolf, and himself.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

ddd has ONE thing garunteed on jiggs from a grab



b-throw



has anyone looked into air release stuff on jiggs?
i know some characters get stufffs

 

[Doc King]

Aero did get into air release stuff on Jiggz and found nothing.

 

[allshort17]

Why are we testing on Jiggs? I bet if we can do anything to Jiggs, we can do to MK also. Maybe we should be looking at what we can get on him first. For example, Marth gets air release gimmicks on him. So, maybe we can get something. If not, I bet we can get some sort of trap if we think of a good option to punish him in the situation.

 

[Doc King]

On the smashville platform moving in the direction your facing. Dedede can pull off an up smash air release on mk.

 

[Exdeath]

>.<

I have told you, Doc King.

Numerous times.

That Dedede has nothing on Jigglypuff.

NOTHING.

NOTHING, EVER.

Have you tried looking into kill set-ups instead of combos (e.g. auto-cancel Uair>Utilt, although that doesn't work on Jigglypuff).

 

[allshort17]

Have you tried looking into kill set-ups instead of combos (e.g. auto-cancel Uair>Utilt, although that doesn't work on Jigglypuff).

That's a good idea (looking for kill set-ups). However, the example you gave should never work on any character since you can just SDI the uair. However, it could frame trap if the airdodge/whiff an aerial.

Maybe we should be looking for combo set-ups too. Things that may try that lead into combos:

*Fair at %0
*Dsmash at %0
*Bthrow/Fthrow/Uthrow at %0
*Utilt at %0
*The trip on dtilt and bair at early percents.
*Uthrow in general because maybe on high platforms we can us it to set people up in knockdown states
*Bair and dtilt at early percents
*Waddle dee at mid/high percents
*ftilt at mid/high percents
*jab at high percents
*nair at any percent

Dair and Uair are probably the worse things we should be looking into for combos because you can SDI and screw it up. However, if they don't they still have potential. Those above all have potential for follow-ups with a proper read, but do we know if we can get anything guaranteed or constantly?

 

[Exdeath]

That's a good idea (looking for kill set-ups). However, the example you gave should never work on any character since you can just SDI the uair. However, it could frame trap if the airdodge/whiff an aerial.

By the virtue of SDIng Dair/Uair, DDD should never use either move while off-stage vs. characters like Falco or Ganon. The reason that I mentioned it, however, wasn't to force the kill, but as a safe way to frame trap into it. If Jigglypuff air dodges through the Uair into DDD, DDD has Utilt. It doesn't work on account of Jigglypuff being able to DI away from DDD, but I was using it as an example. Set-ups aren't restricted to "guaranteed" and "not guaranteed."

When looking at set-ups, look at risk -- "What will happen if this doesn't work," reward -- "What will happen if this works," etc.

For example, using Dash>Dsmash to try and punish Falco's tech roll away from a Dthrow is a bad idea when both characters are at kill % because the set-ups results in Falco being able to kill DDD if the set-up doesn't work because the timing is slightly off -- especially if Falco accidentally power shields. This is as opposed to something like Dthrowing Falco by the ledge and charging Fsmash where a power shield is less likely and the other common form of failure is Falco being forced to grab the ledge from the shield push.

At the same time, player errors/habits also allow different punishes/gimmicks, which is why the former set-up can work on some players. With this in mind, neither set-up is a bad idea, and can ultimately be useful to the general DDD metagame. I'm not saying that guaranteed set-ups are bad; they're great and should be the meat of everyone's gameplay, but I've won more sets with a gimmicky Fsmash set-up than I have from Dthrow infinites. In other words, what I'm saying is that putting some gimmicky buns and cheese on the meat of sound basics makes a piece of meat into a cheeseburger.

 

[C.J.]

That was the most disgusting metaphor ever and I'm never eating a hamburger again.

Ihu

 

[Exdeath]

That was the most disgusting metaphor ever and I'm never eating a hamburger again.

Ihu

I said cheeseburger.

 

[C.J.]

Doesn't matter- you tarnished it all.

 

[Atomsk_92]

You can dthrow jab DK instead of dthrow Dtilting at the ledge.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

What are the benefits of doing this over D Tilt?

 

[bubbaking]

Ended up here because the new Smashboards format listed every thread as unread to me, so I decided to read through this (didn't really do it before; I thought only the OP was important) and I noticed some things:

where the re-grab option?

I actually considered adding that (or what kinda CG you can perform on X character) to the table lol.

This is just the base table. I was going to expand it a little later to add in some other stuff.

Whatever happened to that?

Mario is hit on Upward Slants only.

Peach is ANY Upward Slant.

What's the difference between these?

You can dthrow jab DK instead of dthrow Dtilting at the ledge.

What are the benefits of doing this over D Tilt?

I'm not sure if Atomsk was trolling or not, but jabbing instead of dtilting could have good benefits if we catch DK by the ledge at low %'s and we don't want to stale dtilt. It would be even better if it reliably combos into jab 3, allowing for some nice damage-racking.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I forgot to put in "Large" upward slants.

It won't work on tiny inclines like on Ps1.
But Delfino Beach/ Halberd (I tested it here) will work.

 

[bubbaking]

By PS1, you mean during most of the transformations?