Down B regrab ledge

[chrome12345]

Something I have been experimenting with ZSS is regrabbing the ledge with down b, instead of drop down short hop. I try to dip low enough so that she stays under the ledge. The advantage of this is that you get a surprise jump. At the moment your opponent thinks you are going to regrab the ledge you can just jump and bair, dair, fair, or uair your opponent. I know that this tactic has some risks, like Marth's dtilt. But if you get hit out of it, you still can use down B again before you jump.


It's not something I will always do, but it can be a creative mix up and catch your opponent's off guard

 

[chrome12345]

And I can't wait until someone posts how completely unviable this tactic is LOL

 

[ted dorosheff]

i dont think its unviable, actually i do this too sometimes. you can also down b to the side, away from the stage, and do a pretty solid ledge re-grab. Its similar to ledge dropping and then jumping up to grab the ledge again.

 

[ph00tbag]

I posted about this almost a year ago. The benefits are more than just getting a free-jump--that just adds to the mix-up. You also can vary the height of the Flip Jump to make the ledge-grab timing ambiguous, and even make it ambiguous whether you'll land on stage.

But no one ever took my post to heart. I think until someone who wins really tries it and applies it, it won't really catch on.

 

[Foo]

I posted about this almost a year ago. The benefits are more than just getting a free-jump--that just adds to the mix-up. You also can vary the height of the Flip Jump to make the ledge-grab timing ambiguous, and even make it ambiguous whether you'll land on stage.

But no one ever took my post to heart. I think until someone who wins really tries it and applies it, it won't really catch on.

I've tried it and see no reason to do it over regular ledge jump. However, it is really worth noting that you can instantly wall jump out of down-b letting you wall jump straight from ledge in the blink of an eye. This is potentially really good for edgeguards. Best part is that you keep your double jump. I haven't toyed around with it to much, but you can b-reverse off the wall jump with anything but down-b or instantly double jump out of the wall jump and bair ledge.

 

[ph00tbag]

I've tried it and see no reason to do it over regular ledge jump. However, it is really worth noting that you can instantly wall jump out of down-b letting you wall jump straight from ledge in the blink of an eye. This is potentially really good for edgeguards. Best part is that you keep your double jump. I haven't toyed around with it to much, but you can b-reverse off the wall jump with anything but down-b or instantly double jump out of the wall jump and bair ledge.

Everything I said is literally something you can't do with a regular jump, thus, reasons to use this over jump. The only thing you can't do with it is aerials, but this lends extra power to ledgehop aerials by giving your opponent something else to worry about.

It's not superior to a regular jump. But I never said that. I'm saying I can't think of a reason not to develop it.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

While I would say that the particular use for down-b that you're talking about is very niche, the general sentiment of using down-b from ledge makes for a huge array of useful options. Essentially, you have two jumps from ledge. And if you refresh your invincibility correctly, you can get more vertical reach from ledge than most other characters while invincible. And you also have the flexibility to attack out of it much faster than your typical ledge jump (Meaning pressing jump while holding onto ledge).

Down-b can also make for incredibly quick wall jumps from ledge, like Foo said. You can jump out of this and bair, which is, imo, her safest and most effective ledge attack. You can also do quick, slick perfect platform wavelands and instantly take center stage from ledge on stages like Yoshi's Story, WarioWare, and even Battlefield. If you simply down-b jump, you have the height and invincibility in order to waveland and take center stage on Dreamland, as well. With her down-b, your opponent has to defend both the corner ground as well as the platform above it. You always have two entry points on every stage, so your opponent can't effectively choke you out of the stage like most characters. Not to mention that if they get too close, you can down-b into them and flipstool off of their head, pushing them into the corner and taking center stage.

Down-b is the backbone of ZSS's movement game from ledge. Keep testing out stuff with it. She has so many options with it.

Bonus fact: On Skyworld, you can down-b away and double jump perfect waveland off of the side platforms in either direction because of their strange positioning. I'm beginning to think that Skyworld may be ZSS's best friend for recovery because the two options your opponent has to cover are so far away from one another.

 

[Foo]

Everything I said is literally something you can't do with a regular jump, thus, reasons to use this over jump. The only thing you can't do with it is aerials, but this lends extra power to ledgehop aerials by giving your opponent something else to worry about.

It's not superior to a regular jump. But I never said that. I'm saying I can't think of a reason not to develop it.

I was talking specifically about regrab ledge. Besides, nothing you said was unique to down-b. You can mix all that stuff up with regular jump too. Mixing up regrab timings and mixup whether you land on stage or not isn't unique to down-b, that can be done with jump. What is unique to down-b is the stuff you can do by down-bing straight off ledge, rather than falling and down-bing.

@ Myst007_teh_newb 's bonus note. That stage is illegal in most stage lists, and the problem with recovering on skyworld is no walls (but yeah, it's easy to recover on overall for basically everyone). Biggest problem is that big blast zones and non-combo friendly platforms means her combo/kill power is weakened as well as platform tech chases. Skyworld is ban worthy for zss if legal imo.

 

[ted dorosheff]

do you guys ever use her dive kick out of down b off the ledge grab onto the stage? Ive used it a couple times when the usual fair and uair ledge-to-stage attack was getting predictable.

 

[ph00tbag]

I was talking specifically about regrab ledge. Besides, nothing you said was unique to down-b. You can mix all that stuff up with regular jump too. Mixing up regrab timings and mixup whether you land on stage or not isn't unique to down-b, that can be done with jump. What is unique to down-b is the stuff you can do by down-bing straight off ledge, rather than falling and down-bing.

Mixing up the timing with a jump has a trade-off, because delaying the grab usually puts your head over the ledge, opening you up to ledge pokes. This is not a factor in Flip Jump, where you can change the height the jump itself actually travels. Not to mention the huge range of heights from which regrab is possible. The point is, the opponent can't guess based on drop distance whether they can successfully poke you. Every other character can only access this mix-up from a certain range of heights. ZSS can do it from any distance. You can't tell me that's not unique or worth development.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

do you guys ever use her dive kick out of down b off the ledge grab onto the stage? Ive used it a couple times when the usual fair and uair ledge-to-stage attack was getting predictable.

I'm a very low-risk player, so I typically don't go for that option because of the highly punishable endlag. It has its uses, though. If you fade in and out properly and bait your opponent into a high lag move, you can get the divekick off. It has pretty massive knockback right at the beginning, so especially if you reverse it and get it off, you can send your opponent offstage into an edge guard situation.

Something to consider doing in order to mitigate the risk is to incorporate platform cancelling your divekick off of the ledge. This compromises the angles that you're able to get off of it, but it's worth thinking about.

What's better than all of those options, though, is bair from ledge. All you have to do is down-b into the wall, wall jump, then double jump bair. It's stronger, has more range, can't be SDI'd out of, and is generally her best attack from ledge. It's a tad slower than fair, but get it into your muscle memory that bair from ledge is a VEREY GOOD option.

 

[Foo]

Mixing up the timing with a jump has a trade-off, because delaying the grab usually puts your head over the ledge, opening you up to ledge pokes. This is not a factor in Flip Jump, where you can change the height the jump itself actually travels. Not to mention the huge range of heights from which regrab is possible. The point is, the opponent can't guess based on drop distance whether they can successfully poke you. Every other character can only access this mix-up from a certain range of heights. ZSS can do it from any distance. You can't tell me that's not unique or worth development.

You can no longer change the height of down-b. For everything else, just sweetspot with double jump.

I'm a very low-risk player, so I typically don't go for that option because of the highly punishable endlag. It has its uses, though. If you fade in and out properly and bait your opponent into a high lag move, you can get the divekick off. It has pretty massive knockback right at the beginning, so especially if you reverse it and get it off, you can send your opponent offstage into an edge guard situation.

Something to consider doing in order to mitigate the risk is to incorporate platform cancelling your divekick off of the ledge. This compromises the angles that you're able to get off of it, but it's worth thinking about.

What's better than all of those options, though, is bair from ledge. All you have to do is down-b into the wall, wall jump, then double jump bair. It's stronger, has more range, can't be SDI'd out of, and is generally her best attack from ledge. It's a tad slower than fair, but get it into your muscle memory that bair from ledge is a VEREY GOOD option.

I want a gif of this. From my testing, you could only do that onto a platform, do it very slowly, or do it without double jumping with frame perfect inputs, but you can't do invincible bair without doing it before starting your fall, making it less safe on shield than fair. I still like fair from ledge more (because you can do both hits invincibly, and it only really loses to shield grab), but you can use this to get platforms or catch your opponent sleeping if they don't see it coming.

 

[ph00tbag]

You can no longer change the height of down-b. For everything else, just sweetspot with double jump.

Wait, really?

Did they just want to take out everything that was remotely unique about the character?

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

I want a gif of this. From my testing, you could only do that onto a platform, do it very slowly, or do it without double jumping with frame perfect inputs, but you can't do invincible bair without doing it before starting your fall, making it less safe on shield than fair. I still like fair from ledge more (because you can do both hits invincibly, and it only really loses to shield grab), but you can use this to get platforms or catch your opponent sleeping if they don't see it coming.

It's probably not invincible, but it's still pretty quick. I just have an issue with fair because the people I play against usually SDI the first hit of fair and essentially nullify its use.

 

[Foo]

Wait, really?

Did they just want to take out everything that was remotely unique about the character?

Max angle down-b in 3.02 was the only way to have lower height, and they removed max angle down-b.

 

[chrome12345]

Great discussion. I'm glad to see many of you find it as useful as I think it is.

For the argument that all the same things can be done as the regular jump, not necessarily. The difference is that from the ledge, once you falldown and short hop you have to regrab the ledge, which means this is also what your opponent is expecting. With down b, you mess with their expectations because the moment they believe you are going to regrab the ledge again, you can jump up and do something useful.


I didn't know about the down B wall jump thing; I'll definitely mess around with it as I play friendlies!

 

[chrome12345]

Just to Add, I don't think one approach substitutes for the other. It is just great that ZSS can do either, giving her plenty of versatility on the ledge.