Doubles Tier list

King Funk

Int. Croc. Alligator
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
2,972
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
#2
1. Pikachu

2. Kirby

3. Falcon
4. Fox
5. Mario

6. Jigglypuff
7. Donkey Kong

8. Luigi
9. Samus
10. Yoshi

11. Ness
12. Link

We all have extremely different opinions on teams, mostly because of who we play with regularily and other factors.
 

dandan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
1,373
#3
imo mario is way over falcon in teams. he is a great support character, he can keep your teammate safe when he needs to, he can lead the approach with his fireballs and he can edgeguard extremely well.
falcon always feels like the character that dies first in teams.
 

King Funk

Int. Croc. Alligator
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
2,972
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
#4
imo mario is way over falcon in teams. he is a great support character, he can keep your teammate safe when he needs to, he can lead the approach with his fireballs and he can edgeguard extremely well.
falcon always feels like the character that dies first in teams.
Any character can die first if the player is dumb.

Mario is a great teams character though.
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
#7
I was wondering if we would get around to this. My opinion is:

Pikachu
Kirby

Mario
Fox
Donkey Kong

Falcon
Luigi
Jigglypuff

Yoshi
Samus

Ness
Link
Holy hell why is DK so high? TBH I think he's garbage in teams.

Pikachu
Kirby

Fox
Mario
Falcon

Jigglypuff
Yoshi
Luigi
Samus

DK
Ness
Link

...A doubles tier list strikes me as a silly idea, but I can't really justify why.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
9,343
Location
Sayonara Memories
#8
DK's up-b is hugely useful in teams for edgeguarding and gtfo when being ganged up on, his grab range is a massive advantage, down-B is surprisingly good and giant punch hurts: a lot.

Definitely better than Samus and probably Jiggs too.

Also, a doubles tier list using only single characters is silly. Double Link is an awful team, but Pika + Link is passable and would probably beat Double Ness. You'd have to write up each pairing, to be honest.
 
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
#9
Not necessarily. It's kind of obvious that Pika/Link will be better than double Ness. Marvel vs Capcom 2 has an individual character tier list despite being able to pick 3 characters.

Also I've never really played doubles so I won't be able to give much of an opinion here.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
9,343
Location
Sayonara Memories
#11
Not necessarily. It's kind of obvious that Pika/Link will be better than double Ness. Marvel vs Capcom 2 has an individual character tier list despite being able to pick 3 characters.

Also I've never really played doubles so I won't be able to give much of an opinion here.
MvC2 is always 1v1, even if the ability to switch characters exists. You have to take into account what can possibly be on the screen at the time.
 

dandan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
1,373
#12
i know this is not really the place for this, but just thought some of you might be interested.
to celebrate mcv3 release, they made the "final" mvc2 important match.
a money match for 15000$ and including side bets, it got to 42000$.
needless to say, there was hype.
it is also commentated by some of the best us fighting games players.

have fun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVTdAOb54xI
 
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
#13
Yeah I watched that.

Was kind of disappointing after all the hype because once the guy picked his actual team he won almost all the matches.

asianaussie,

What does that have to do with anything? (note also in marvel you can call in your other characters and stuff)

By your logic, we should have to rank every single possible team in MvC2 as well, but this just isn't the case. Even if, say, Mario/Ness is a really great team due to some synergy, if Ness sucks with all other partners we can still put him fairly low on the list. It's just like how in the normal tier list we factor in all matchups. For a team tier list, just factor in all partners as well.
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
#14
Also, a doubles tier list using only single characters is silly. Double Link is an awful team, but Pika + Link is passable and would probably beat Double Ness. You'd have to write up each pairing, to be honest.
I agree completely. You have to factor in how two characters specifically pair with each other. You can't just make a generic tier list looking at the aspects of individual characters, when it's a team game.

By your logic, we should have to rank every single possible team in MvC2 as well, but this just isn't the case.
The difference is that in Smash teams, you have both characters on the screen at once, while in MvC2 it's a single match-up if I'm not mistaken (not counting assists).

And I still am hella weirded out by Koro thinking Ness and Puff are worse than Link.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
9,343
Location
Sayonara Memories
#15
What does that have to do with anything? (note also in marvel you can call in your other characters and stuff)

By your logic, we should have to rank every single possible team in MvC2 as well, but this just isn't the case. Even if, say, Mario/Ness is a really great team due to some synergy, if Ness sucks with all other partners we can still put him fairly low on the list. It's just like how in the normal tier list we factor in all matchups. For a team tier list, just factor in all partners as well.
First of all, games where you can call in other characters to support do not have an overall effect on dual play. In a game like Jump Ultimate Stars, supports are an enormous part of combo play, yet are not considered in tier listing because they are available to essentially every character. I haven't played MvC to any significant degree, but I sincerely doubt that there is a scenario where you are able to control two of the characters you chose and give them separate inputs, because assists are just basically another special move your character has access to. MvC is, in the end, a 1v1 game where you can pick a couple characters for your team and tag them in and out. In Smash there is no tag system, it's just 2 versus 2. The synergy two characters have with one another is very important in doubles.

You *could* take every pairing into consideration, see how each character does in that pairing, and average it out to rank each character individually, but even then there would be significant discrepencies you could only address by incorporating teams.
 
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
#16
Maybe I'm not being clear enough.

It DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER THE OTHER CHARACTERS ARE CALLED IN AS ASSISTS OR ALWAYS ON THE SCREEN.

EITHER WAY THERE WILL BE SYNERGIES THAT YOU HAVE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.

For example, maybe in MvC2 Rogue is a terrible character, but Rogue/Storm is a really good combination of characters. EXACTLY LIKE IN SMASH BROS TEAMS.

A 1 character difference on a team in MvC2 makes your strategy different. That's why they have team names like MSS (Magneto Storm Sentinel) and MSP (Magneto Storm Psylocke). Assists are an extremely big part of the game (my uneducated opinion would be to think that there are actually more synergies in MvC2 than Smash).


You guys have to explain what the difference is that makes it so MvC2 can have a single character tier list for a team game and not Smash Bros, when the same argument about synergies applies.


Of course a tier list of all teams would be better, it's just that it will take too long to make and be too difficult to debate, because there are too many team combinations.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

Smash Hero
Writing Team
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
5,950
Location
Northern NJ, 15 minutes from the GW or Manhattan
#17
it is since in MVC2, there is a single character out, it comes down to how they play. Also, if I remember right, they also make the list by how useful their assists are (or there might be a different list, I haven't looked at it enough).

Also, no one cares about tier lists in MVC2 past the first
10 characters and how GOOD servbot is.

In smash, there has to be more synergy as there are 2 players playing. Yes, you require there to be sync between the characters you are using but it is your brain working alone.

my issue with Jigglypuff btw is how light she is. She also has low range and is way too floaty to assist. She just dies way too quickly. I do find Ness to be the worst though due to his terrible range.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
9,343
Location
Sayonara Memories
#18
Can we please focus more on the Pika matchups for now? I'm fine with this topic running as a side-topic, and I'm sure meaningful discussion will arise, but I would appreciate working on matchups until we've covered at least Pika's. If anyone else has a subject of interest they'd like to explore - netplay, promoting the game, etc - please go ahead and make a new thread - I don't want too much formality here.

While I dislike the idea of a single character tier list when 2 characters are working at a time, I am not entirely opposed to it for practical reasons. It would take far too long to write up matchups for every team and then a tier list for them.

As far as I'm concerned, MvC2 is a game where you can change up the characters in your team and change up their assists, which basically qualify as special moves. If you could tag in and out in Smash I wouldn't bother sorting teams, but when two characters are on one screen they are a team, not individual characters, and should be ranked as such. It might be practical to do it one character at a time, and most likely will be how the discussion goes, but I'm just saying it's not as comprehensive as a tier list of all combinations.
 
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
#19
I said I agree that a ranking of all teams would be "better", but it's not feasible to do that.

By the way, they are much more individual characters in smash, since, you know, they actually are individual characters. In MvC2 a character might be terrible in fighting but have a great assist, or an assist that synergizes well with a certain other character, so it would seem that you would have to factor in teams MORE in MvC2. In Smash, it's pretty clear that a double Pika team is going to be really good, since Pika is the best character and you're now going to have 2 of them on the screen.
 

King Funk

Int. Croc. Alligator
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
2,972
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
#20
I just played a lot of team matches with Bear, Fays and Dandan. Bear and me played Kirby and Falcon and all games were on Dreamland. And I honestly think that if we're gonna do a tier list for teams, there has to be one list for Dreamland and one for Hyrule, because it's such a different experience.

Actually now that I think about it, a full ranking of teams is not impossible. There's "only" 78 teams possible in smash 64.
 
Top