Don't Drop the Ball! A Comprehensive (70% complete) Guide to D-throw

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
12,542
Location
RPV, California
NNID
A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
#1
Don't Drop the Ball!

But you probably did if you ever tried G&W's D-throw. All is not lost yet though!

Table of Contents:
Introduction [INTD]
Conditioning [CNDG]
Options [OPTN]
*Opponent's Options [OPOP]
*G&W's Options [GWOP]
**Buffering Options [BFFO]
Character Specific Data [CRSD]

Introduction [INTD]:

G&W's D-throw is a notable throw. Loved, hated, criticized, underrated, abused, and misused by many, the facts are that G&W's D-throw is a valuable move in its ability to put G&W in an advantageous position where his opponent has only four options, which are not teching, teching in place, techroll away, and techroll in. All of these can be punished through smart techchasing. While in normal situations, G&W *usually* can't cover every option at once, a good guess or read on his part if done right is generally significantly rewarding while a bad guess on G&W's part generally should be low risk as long as he didn't over-commit to a poor techchase option. Granted, people may be cautious about the guessing game involved with G&W's D-throw, but that brings me to my next topic.

Conditioning [CNDG]:

"A2! Why a topic on conditioning?" Because conditioning is exactly how you make G&W's D-throw work in normal situations. Now many people are going to criticize G&W's D-throw for the fact that you can tech(roll) it. What is understated is how those options are ultimately unsafe. You just have to understand how to punish people if they insist on teching all the time. To cut to a helpful point, every techroll in the game can be punished by a regrab or techchase F-air. This is a HUGE deal, and smart opponents will quickly understand that getting techchased into regrab or F-air, especially if you do it with some level of consistency is in fact not something to brush off lightly, especially when the latter is good for KOs. If you teach them that techrolling isn't always the best option, opponents will start to either not tech at all, or tech in place to try to trick you. Free tilts, instant Dash Attack (hugely underrated option), or in some cases D-smash/F-smash once they start doing that. Keep in mind that it is pretty much always safe for G&W to commit to punishing a techroll. If they techroll in the direction you commit to, punish it. If they don't, you're back in neutral position as long as you didn't over-commit to whiffing a laggy move. Don't let your opponent pull bull**** on you just because you weren't expecting them to do something.

It gets even better when you grab someone near the edge, where if your opponent decides to land on the side closest to the edge, you can cover THREE OUT OF FOUR OF THEIR OPTIONS with D-tilt, Dash Attack, or sometimes even F-smash (which regardless of character can hit every techroll that is cut short by an edge). Of course, an opponent who is aware of this will understand that techrolling towards center stage is theoretically logical due to the implied threat of getting 3 out of 4 options screwed over by the edge, though he might also realize that it would be too easy for you to cover the option of simply techchasing their roll inward towards center stage. The value of knowing your opponent, which habits you can condition, and capitalizing effectively is rather obvious here.

I haven't even touched what happens when you D-throw someone on a small platform, but I will let this guide speak for itself. Read on!

Options [OPTN]

Before I get to your options, I will restate that the opponent has 4 options.

*Opponent's Options [OPOP]:

Not teching: I guess you could count this as two options technically given they can choose which side to land on by DIing, but the frame advantage and time you get to react to this is pretty significant. If they try to land behind you, just react to it and proceed with instant Dash attack, F/D-tilt, or Jab. Furthermore a lot of silly people who try to land behind G&W will also end up rolling in that direction, which is VERY easy to techchase regrab or U-smash on reaction.[collapse=Universal frame data for not teching]Total: 26
Vulnerable: all frames (26)[/collapse]Teching in place: An option that is somewhat better for the opponent if you commit to punishing an anticipated techroll. However this option is equally punishable as not teching at all, and in pretty much all situations, anything you can do to an opponent who does not tech, you can do to an opponent who techs in place. Do not worry about your opponent teching in place behind you. This is impossibly difficult to do.[collapse=Universal frame data for teching in place]Total: 26
Invulnerable: 1-20 (20)
Vulnerable: 20-26 (6)[/collapse]Techrolling away or towards you: Generally considered together to be the best two options for getting out of G&W's techchase traps. It sorta is given that in most cases, G&W can't really cover both techrolls on reaction. However a read techroll can be easily punished with regrab or F-air in all matchups, so it's not all bad if they techroll. Keep in mind on small platforms, especially like those on BF, buffered D-smash will always sweetspot on techroll in EITHER direction.[collapse=Universal frame data for techrolling]Total: 40
Invulnerable: 1-20 (20)
Vulnerable: 21-40 (20)[/collapse]
By now you may have noticed that the frame advantage G&W has on opponents who either don't tech or tech in place is completely identical. Also what you may have noticed is that the difference in frame advantage between the opponent techrolling and (not) teching in place is 14 frames. While you get a massive frame advantage for your opponent techrolling, it's the distance the techroll travels that will determine how the folowups work on it.

So while I don't really feel like doing this individually for each character, the general formula for G&W's D-throw advantage is like this:[collapse="formula for D-throw advantage"]{Opponent Airtime} + {total frames of option} - {G&W's D-throw recovery (weight dependent)} = frame advantage[/collapse]Everything except Opponent Airtime has been explained. To keep it short, depending on opponent's height, physics, and how much damage they have, as well as how stale D-throw is, they could be in the air for around 1-3 frames before hitting the ground (teching however can be buffered before that). NORMALLY this does not affect ANY followups significantly, though there are a few character specific examples that will be covered in this guide.

Now the fun part about techchasing begins when we realize that G&W has many, many, many options for techchasing.

*G&W's Options [GWOP]:

Please reference the Frame Data thread for more details. If you're having trouble finding a move, simply copy the names of the moves I have listed and Ctrl+F them in the frame data thread.

Oil Panic: 2 frames startup. Why did I even mention this? There's actually a few matchups where you can get a full Bucket, and Oil Panic as a techchase option is brilliant both in terms of speed and reward. Oil Panic can also be amazing at covering 3 out of 4 options given that the huge lingering hitbox is capable of sometimes catching slower techrolls, while teching in place or not teching in front of G&W gets destroyed.

Neutral A: 4 frames startup. Jab is a pretty decent option given its speed. You can generally react to people not teching pretty easily with this. Keep in mind that buffering Jab will generally whiff on people who tech in place. What's especially great about Jab is how it sets up into a (mostly) free regrab. Beware that people can spotdodge, or sometimes interrupt the grab though.

Down tilt: 6 frames startup. Great option. Damage is low, but the move is quick, and it sends people out at a nice angle. If you land this at high percents and get someone offstage, it's usually easy to finish their stock with a F-air edgeguard, especially against predictable recoveries. In a select number of matchups, D-tilt's range can actually allow it to cover techrolls as well, making it useful for covering multiple options at once.

Dash Attack: 6 frames startup. One of G&W's better options for techchasing, yet one of his least used by many players. I personally don't understand why this isn't used more. The damage is nice, the positional setup is also very nice, and it's easy to cover both your opponent's missed tech and tech in place with this option. A word of caution though, as some characters who techroll away can punish a whiffed DA meant to cover a tech in place.

Footstool: 5+1 (variable) frames startup. The footstool is tricky and situational, but it’s a powerful option for techchasing. You can footstool and stun an opponent during any vulnerable frames of their tech in place or techroll as long as you can reach their head quickly enough during their vulnerable period, which from experimentation seems to simply require you to be jumping for around 2-5 frames (average 3) after inputting a short hop, slightly fewer frames if you can input the footstool after a fullhop (read the section on buffering for more information on this). This combos into D-air, and I recommend reading the comments on D-air I have in this guide which are a little further down this section.

Forward Tilt: 10 frames startup. F-tilt is a fairly unimpressive option, but what it can do is get guaranteed punishes on every tech in place and every missed tech in the game. Given that F-tilt sorta can be used as a KO move at high percents, it's definitely an option, though normally the options you should consider over it are D-tilt and Dash Attack. D-tilt is easier to land and has superior trajectory, while DA does more damage and is both easier to land and has setup potential.

Neutral aerial: 5+7 frames startup (5+22 for the final hit). Credits to God-is-my-Rock here for what I’m going to be calling GIMR’s N-air option select (<-Click the link to see the original post!). Neutral aerial at first glance is very situational because only ROB, Jigglypuff, G&W, and Kirby get hit by it for not teching. However many more characters not only get hit by N-air for teching in place, many of those characters will also get hit by the same N-air’s last hit for techrolling (away from G&W, as far as I can see). Whether you have to buffer a dash or simply drift while N-airing is still remains to be seen through experimentation, but if you land the last hit of N-air at low percents, you can get a combo into sweetspot D-air to spike them back into the ground for another grab. For more documentation on techchasing with Neutral aerial, please read this wonderful Metagame Minute article written by God-is-my-Rock.

Up tilt: 13 frames startup. Another situational option. It's probably best on ROB, maybe okay on other not too skinny lightweights like Kirby. U-tilt can score consecutive hits at low percents...and I guess it could be used as a KO move (one that is stronger than F-tilt for that matter), though its uses are limited by its high hitbox, which causes it to whiff on a lot of missed techs.

Foward aerial: 5+10 frames startup. GREAT option, one of G&W's most important techchase options by far. The damage and knockback are excellent, and the beauty of this move is the fact that it's a consistent option on every techroll in the game (except for perhaps one...) You could also buffer F-airs on missed techs or techs in place on the same characters you can D-smash. You might want to consider it given that it does more damage than D-smash anyway.

Down Smash: 15 frames startup. A decent option on lightweights who get comboed by it for (not) teching in place. You don't need to react at all to people who don't tech, just buffering the D-smash will work. Given that it sends people at a low trajectory and has rather high knockback, it's a well known option for KOs and gimp setups. Your opponents will be expecting this, and given that, try to be creative in exploitation of this fact. Furthermore, against anyone unlucky enough to get grabbed on a small platform like on Battlefield, and even moreso if they suffer from a 15 frame or greater disadvantage for (not) teching in place, D-smash will hit them out of ALL options. ;)

Judgement: 16 frames startup. An overall decent if somewhat unreliable option. There's a number of lightweights who can be comboed into this move for not teching or teching in place. More interesting is probably the fact that Judgement is a techchase option on a number of techrolls. It's worth knowing that due to the fact the 9 has a smaller hitbox than the other numbers, it's harder to techchase into a 9 than it is to techchase into other Judgement numbers, but regardless the option does exist. Techchasing into a 6, a 2, or an 8 can also be pretty profitable, so don't cry immediately if you don't get the 9s you want.

Down aerial: 5+12 frames startup. Buffered D-air only hits a few characters for (not) teching in place, but oh boy it's extremely worth it on those few characters. Credits to Vinnie for discovering the Viva combo, where on such characters, you can land both hits of D-air for 20% AND a regrab. This is one of G&W's most damaging options after D-throw, and it's great to know that it works on Metaknight and Olimar. It’s even better to know that D-air can be used as an option to chase techrolls on those characters and more, and you can thank God-is-my-Rock for pointing that out.

Foward smash: 17 frames startup. Hits basically the same characters D-air can hit. You kinda have to predict which side they land on, given that you have to buffer F-smash for it to consistently hit. The HUGE knockback of F-smash makes D-throw F-smash an amazing kill setup, especially against people who both don't tech, and always DI towards center stage to avoid getting gimped by D-smash. There's even a few characters you can punish techrolls with F-smash by simply walking a few steps before F-smashing, though this is rare.

Chef: 18 frames startup. I mean...this is technically an option on anyone you have a 18 or higher frame advantage for (not) teching in place, but I would pretty much never recommend this given that D-air, F-smash, and practically everything else that takes less time to do is just better. Furthermore buffering this is liable to make you automatically commit to shooting 5 pieces whether you want it or not, ignoring the fact you're already at a sizable frame disadvantage against anyone who techrolls to avoid this on top of the fact the projectile is unlikely to hit them anyway. I'm not saying Chef is useless, but for techchasing it essentially is. There are better situations to be using Chef in than techchasing.

Up smash: 24 frames startup on back, 25 frames startup on front. Generally this is the most powerful option in the game for punishing a missed tech AND a roll in the anticipated direction, though I wouldn't count on this given how relatively easy this is to avoid. There ARE a few techrolls you can punish with running U-smash though, and of course the reward for this is simply incredible.


**Buffering Options [BFFO]:

You’ll see me throw around the term “buffering” a bit in this guide, which is inputting commands within 10 frames before you’re actually allowed to move. Buffering makes a difference especially when punishing people who do (not) tech in place, though buffering Dashes also helps, and may be essential when punishing techrolls. Here is a brief synopsis on how to buffer inputs for everything that matters on a GCN controller with standard settings:

[collapse=Dash:] Input a sideways Smash input on the control stick and make sure the control stick is neutral before your first actionable frame. This will likely not be an issue in actual play, but to buffer a dash in the direction you are not facing, you must hold the control stick full sideways for more than one frame, and keep in mind you spend a frame turning around. The tricky part about buffering a dash is to make sure the control stick is in neutral during activation, but quickly holding the control stick forwards once you actually are running.[/collapse][collapse=Turnaround:] If you want to buffer a turnaround D-tilt or Jab, you must first input a light control stick press before doing anything else. You do not lose a frame for buffering turnaround tilts, Jabs, or Smashes, though I’m certain it takes an extra frame to turnaround DA under all circumstances.[/collapse][collapse=Jab:] Simple. Just mash the A button if you want this. You don’t really need to buffer this though given timing is lenient due to how fast this move is, so if you want to Jab on reaction to which side your opponent lands on without teching, you can feasibly do this. Be wary about whiffing Jab when buffering it on techs.[/collapse][collapse=D-tilt:] Similar to Jab, usually you DON’T need to buffer this given that the timing to combo into this off D-throw is usually lenient. But if you want to buffer this just to be sure, LIGHTLY hold the control stick downwards and mash the A button. Alternatively read the section on F-tilt.[/collapse][collapse=F-tilt/Judgement:] This one will be tricky if you don’t understand it, because the buffer system mostly only allows you to buffer an action if the control stick is in neutral position before your first actionable frame. To buffer this, hold the control stick in the desired direction, input the attack within the 10 frame window, and release the control stick quickly.[/collapse][collapse=U-tilt:] If you want to buffer this, all you need to do is hold Up and spam the A button.[/collapse][collapse=Dash Attack:] Again as with D-tilt, and Jab, you don’t really need to buffer this at all given that you could simply just try reacting to which side they landed and still have plenty of time to land this move. You should all know that the proper way to instant Dash Attack is inputting the Dash and immediately hitting C-stick down. Trying to input a turnaround DA too quickly will result in a turnaround D-smash instead.[/collapse][collapse=D-smash/F-smash:] Spam the C-stick in the desired direction. You do not lose a frame for doing a reverse F-smash, which is nice to know against Olimar especially.[/collapse][collapse=Aerials (and footstool)] There’s more than one way to do this, but there is one rule you must obey here. The Attack input has to always be inputted within 5 frames of your first actionable frame, due to your jump startup having 5 frames of duration. Furthermore buffering a U-air, should you want one requires you to hold the control stick lightly upwards otherwise you will buffer a U-smash instead. You can for example either input Jump+Direction+Attack or Jump+C-stick (no U-air for this one) within 5 frames before your first actionable frame (make sure control stick is neutral before the actionable frame!). Or you can input the jump within the normal 10 frame window, and then input your direction and your attack during your 5 frame jump startup. Keep in mind that buffering a dash before aerial does not cost a frame, but gives you some forward momentum before doing your aerial.

Keep in mind, footstools generally cannot be buffered. They have to be timed to meet two conditions, one that the opponent actually is vulnerable after teching (minor issue to keep track of if they tech in place), and two that you’re able to reach their head during a vulnerable frame (given that footstool stun is blockable). Fullhopping can make you footstool faster than short hopping, but it’s incredibly difficult to reasonably do given that you have to basically hold the jump button until the end of your jump startup to fulllhop and you are not allowed to use another button for jumping while holding your jump button. Tap Jump is a workaround that can let you footstool while holding a jump button, although you might find it difficult to D-air after footstooling with Tap Jump.[/collapse]
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
12,542
Location
RPV, California
NNID
A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
#2
Character Specific Data [CRSD]:

[collapse=Random unrelated detail:]You have an exact 8 frame window to do a ledgehop autocancel F-air. Jump+F-air has to be frame perfect. Ledgedrop does not. And like I suspected, G&W's midair jump beep is active on frame 2 of his jump. It does NOT happen when you do a frame perfect aerial before it.[/collapse]Keep in mind that all the followups on techroll listed are in reference to techroll away unless otherwise mentioned. It takes one frame longer to followup on an opponent who techrolls behind you. Followups may change slightly in some special cases, and if they in fact land closer to you as a result, like DDD for example, followups may actually be easier.

Something interesting to note is that I'll often mention that various techchases work after dashing for at least 9 frames. Note that starting frame 9, G&W leans forward on his dash animation, and I believe he also has slightly more momentum on this point of his dash.

Furthermore, this is a work in progress. More information will come as I complete testing.

Credits:
Vinnie, for being the first documented G&W to use D-air after D-throw
God-is-my-Rock, for helping research various things including other D-air and N-air techchases
DMG, who may or may not remember saying something about F-smashing certain characters for techrolling.
Omegablackmage, cool guy who also happened to collect approximate techroll lengths.
You, all the other G&W players for inspiring me to make this guide for the sake of improving us as players

[collapse=Omegablackmage's approximate techroll length data]Some recent testing I did on get up rolls and tech roll lengths. I was unable to find any other testing data on this on the rest of smashboards so i decided to do a crude test myself. Heres what I found:

...............roll...............tech
gw..........1.5...............1.1
lucario...1.95............1.2
ganon....1.75............1.4
rob.........1.75............1.4
jiggz.......1.3..............1.45
kirby......1.5..............1.5
pikachu.1.2..............1.5
ness.......2.................1.5
sonic......1.75............1.5
bowser..1.1..............1.5
wario.....1.65............1.5
olimar...1.5...............1.5
icies.......1.65............1.55
lucas......2.................1.55
diddy.....2..................1.6
meta k..1.75............1.6
t link......1.7..............1.7
mario....2..................1.75
samus...1.85............1.75
zss.........2..................1.75
sheik.....1.75............1.75
lizardon.1.4.............1.75
captain..1.85...........1.75
pit...........1.5.............1.8
snake....2.4..............1.8
dk...........1.75...........1.85
fox.........1.9..............1.85
luigi........2.5.............1.9
ike..........2.1.............1.9
marth....2.1.............1.95
yoshi......1.7.............1.95
ddd.........1.7.............1.95
falco.......1.95...........2
ivysaur..2.25...........2
peach.....2................2
wolf........1.9..............2
link.........2.1..............2.1
zelda.....2.25............2.25
squirtle.1.75............2.25

(i apologize for the terrible formatting, thank vbulletin for that)[/collapse]

Jiggs:
Tech in place: 19 (DA, D-tilt, D-air and F-smash covers both tech in place and no tech)
Techroll: 33 (frame perfect dash F-smash barely reaches in time, walk -> F-smash seems to work, techchase U- smash also works in about a 2-3ish frame window)

G&W:
Tech in place: 19
Techroll: 33 (walk -> F-smash works. Think for yourself to know what that means. =P)

Squirtle:
Tech in place: 18
Techroll: 32 (techchase D-air on away roll only gets ground hit after dashing for at least 8 frames. On towards roll, dashing for 10 frames gets the ground hit. Dashing for 12 gets the non-spike hit. Dashing for exactly 14 after the turnaround is required for the spike, which means it has to be absolutely frame perfect, and most likely at low percents anyway.)

Kirby:
Tech in place: 17
Techroll: 31 (techchase Judgement works. Dash for at least 10 frames before inputting Judgement. Techchase into D-air also works. Dash for at least 8 frames (plus an extra frame for turning around) to get the ground hit, 11 frames for sweetspot)

Metaknight:
Tech in place: 18
Techroll: 32 (techchase Judgement works. Getting a 9 requires Judgement from frame 14-16 assuming you buffer dash after throw. Confirmed by God-is-my-rock, chasing the techroll with both hits of D-air is evidently possible. Dashing for at least 11 frames gets the ground hit only. Dashing for at least 14 frames gets the sweetspot. D-tilt can cover techrolls, but away techroll may require you to delay it and/or take a step forward before doing it.)
Blocked getup attack: 31 front (has deceptive range behind him), 21 back

Pikachu:
Tech in place: 16
Techroll: 30 (techchase U-smash works, so does techchase Judgement. Coincidentally you can land any number of Judgement after dashing for 9 frames so long as you are initiating Judgement within 14 frames after soonest IASA)

Fox:
Tech in place: 15 (U-tilt and N-air whiff if he does not tech)
Techroll: 29 (techchase Judgement works, but cannot lead to a 9 normally. Timing is extremely tight anyway. GIMR’s N-air option select works.)

Zero Suit Samus:
Tech in place: 16
Techroll: 30 (Buffered D-tilt and Oil Panic cover techroll, you have to walk a tad backwards for D-tilt to cover inwards techroll)

Falco:
Tech in place: 16 (U-tilt and N-air whiff if he does not tech.)
Techroll: 30 (GIMR’s N-air option select works.)

Olimar:
Tech in place: 17 (Keep in mind that if he does not tech, and if he thinks he still knows the matchup, he will often DI towards center stage to avoid getting gimped by D-smash. F-smash him instead for the KO. Try to condition him into realizing that techrolling is not always the best option for him. ;) )
Techroll: 31 (techchase U-smash works, but timing is tight, to time dash within first 2 actionable frames dash and must time U-smash on frames 5-6 after first IASA. Oh and techchase Judgement works.)

Zelda:
Tech in place: 15 (U-tilt and N-air whiff if she does not tech. No GIMR option select)
Techroll: 29

Sheik:
Tech in place: 15 (U-tilt and N-air whiff if she does not tech.)
Techroll: 29 (GIMR’s N-air option select works.)

Marth:
Tech in place: 14 (U-tilt and N-air whiff if he does not tech. No GIMR option select)
Techroll: 28

Peach:
Tech in place: 14 (U-tilt and N-air whiff if she does not tech. No GIMR option select)
Techroll: 28

Ice Climbers:
Tech in place: 15 (frame advantage drops to 14 at around…dunno, guessing 200%. Assuming you grab a single Ice Climber at 160% or less though, D-smash should work)
Techroll: 29 (D-tilt and Oil Panic cover EVERYTHING provided you pick the correct side, so if Popo for example techrolls away and you simply buffer D-tilt or Oil Panic, it will hit him. Essentially guaranteed if you grab the lone Ice Climber next to the edge, given that getting D-throw spiked in that position would essentially be death anyway. Techchase Judgement does work but for the 9 needs to be completely frame perfect.)

Toon Link:
Tech in place: 14-15 (When TL lands on the ground depends on percent and D-throw staleness; very iffy. Frame advantage for fresh D-throw is always 15 at 0-7% on flat terrain. Totally stale D-throw stops comboing into D-smash at around...~21%)
Techroll: 28-29

Diddy Kong:
Tech in place: 14 (U-tilt and N-air whiff if he does not tech)
Techtroll: (GIMR’s N-air option select works. Techchase 9 works after dashing for 9 frames on away techroll, has to be frame perfect on inward roll.)

Ness:
Tech in place: 15-16 (doesn’t really matter. At low percents frame advantage is 16. Tested at like 200%, fresh D-throw still maintains a 15 frame advantage anyway, so D-smash is always fine here)
Techroll: 29-30 (techchase Judgement works, has to be initiated at least after frame 10 of dashing to land a 9)

Lucas:
Tech in place: 15-16 (see Ness)
Techroll: 29-30 (techchase into 9 works after dashing for 11 frames. Techchase D-air works, easiest at low percents, and spiking with D-air requires dashing for at least 12 frames. You will only get the ground hit at low percents if you dash for 10-11 frames)

Pit:
Tech in place: 14 (U-tilt and N-air whiff if he does not tech)
Techroll: 28 (GIMR’s N-air option select works. Buffered D-tilt and Oil Panic cover techrolls.

Sonic:
Tech in place: 14 (U-tilt and N-air whiff if he does not tech)
Techroll: 28 (buffered turnaround D-tilt covers inward techroll. Dash for at least 10 frames to land 9 on away techroll. Dash for 9 frames after turning around to land a 9 on inward techroll. GIMR’s N-air option select works. Sourspot D-air if frame perfect can hit techroll away.)

Luigi:
Tech in place: 14 (U-tilt and N-air whiff if he does not tech)
Techroll: 28 (GIMR’s N-air option select works.)

Mario:
Tech in place: 13 (U-tilt and N-air whiff if he does not tech)
Techroll: 27 (GIMR’s N-air option select works.)

Ivysaur:
Tech in place: 14 (N-air only hits tech in place, no GIMR option select.)
Techroll: 28

Lucario:
Tech in place: 13 (U-tilt and N-air whiff if he does not tech)
Techroll: 27 (buffered D-tilt and Oil Panic covers techroll, GIMR’s N-air option select works)

Wolf:
Tech in place: 13 (U-tilt and N-air whiff if he does not tech.)
Techroll: 27

Captain Falcon:
Tech in place: 13 (U-tilt and N-air whiff if he does not tech.)
Techroll: 27 (GIMR’s N-air option select works. Buffered D-tilt can cover techrolls)

Link:
Tech in place: 13 (U-tilt and N-air whiff if he does not tech, no GIMR option select)
Techroll: 27 (Link is boring. Just techchase F-air or grab if you read the roll)

Ike:
Tech in place: 12 (N-air only hits tech in place, no GIMR option select)
Techroll: 26

ROB:
Tech in place: 14
Techroll: 28 (techchase Judgement works, if you want a 9, buffer dash and initiate Judgement after frames 10-12, timing is slightly more lenient for other Judgements)

Wario:
Tech in place: 13
Techroll: 27 (techchase Judgement works, but does not lead to 9. Timing is tight anyway, 2 frame window at best)

Yoshi:
Tech in place: 13 (U-tilt and N-air whiff if he does not tech)
Techroll: 27 (GIMR’s N-air option select works.)

Samus:
Tech in place: 12 (N-air only hits tech in place, no GIMR option select)
Techroll: 26

Ganondorf:
Tech in place: 11 (it’s exceedingly difficult to footstool Ganondorf for teching in place)
Techroll: 25

Charizard:
Tech in place: 12-13 (frame advantage for fresh D-throw drops to 12 starting at 52%)
Techroll: 26-27

King Dedede:
Tech in place: 11 (Buffering Jab covers both tech in place and no tech, and if he techs, you will meaty him with the 3rd active frame of G&W’s Jab)
Techroll: 25 (techchasing into F-air is very tight on this one because of how far he rolls, especially if he chooses to techroll away. This requires you to buffer the dash perfectly AND to time the F-air on frame 10. If you feel he’s going to techroll away, you pretty much should just stick to techchase grabbing unless his space is limited. Or just get him offstage/above you, which generally is good enough in this matchup due to his bad mobility. If he techrolls towards you however then assuming a buffered dash, you can actually techchase F-air him after dashing for 8-10 frames)

Snake:
No tech: 12
Tech in place: 12 (so contrary to what I thought, you can actually D-smash him before he U-tilts you, but his Jab might clank, and he can block of course, which you don't want given that you're around -14 on block not factoring shield drop, potential powershield (which will probably happen if you both buffer your actions), and of course Snake's giant tilt range)
Techroll: 26

DK:
Tech in place: 10
Techroll: 24

Bowser:
Tech in place: 11 (see DDD)
Techroll: 25
 

A2ZOMG

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#4
I dunno how long it took me to come up with all this. I spent most of this morning making this topic, and then I spent all of last weekend getting data...which still isn't close to being complete.

And then if you count all the months I've been generally brooding over how amazing D-throw is...it's something I've put quite a bit of energy into.
 

GimR

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#9
Gewd Stuff A2ZOMG. gonna do some testing my self

Edit: BTW, you can tech chase MK left or right and D-air him out of it to regrab
 

A2ZOMG

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#11
Gewd Stuff A2ZOMG. gonna do some testing my self

Edit: BTW, you can tech chase MK left or right and D-air him out of it to regrab
Very interesting. Keep the details coming if you can. Try to explain frame windows for techchases if possible so that we have an idea how difficult a techchase option is to do. For example even though you can techchase DDD into F-air no matter which way he techrolls, it's extremely difficult to do it to his back roll because it requires hitting a 1 frame window that cannot be buffered.

More things I have to eventually figure out:

*When and where and if N-air or U-tilt work on techchases
*Frame advantage on block against getup attacks on both sides. I just watched overgamer commit to punishing anticipated techrolls and then shielding when he reacted to the fact his opponent in fact didn't tech. So I mean this situation can happen. =P
 

GimR

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#12
okay so I figured out something pretty broken. If you buffer dash N-air it will catch a lot of peoples tech in place.

But if some of them tech roll away and you react to it, you can move the n-air over and hit them with the last hit. At low percent you can combo this into double jump d-air(Hit em with the spike hit box) and combo that into regrab or buffered dash f-air
 

A2ZOMG

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#13
I like the sound of that. Hearing about which characters this works on would be even better.

Updated: Few things from GIMR, added Lucas and Lucario (who you will both love grabbing even more after you read their sections)

Update 2: more stuff under options including footstools, other tweaks under character specific.
 

GimR

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#14
okay so against ROB buffered dash n-air covers 4 OPTIONS!

  1. If they don't tech
  2. if they DI away and don't tech
  3. if they tech in place
  4. if they tech roll away



If you delay a d-tilt it covers 4 options against MK

  1. no tech
  2. DI away no tech
  3. tech in place
  4. tech roll away

this is good since at 60% MK will start hitting the ground after d-tilt which can lead to usmash or badly DI'd fair


one last thing: if you buffer jab against a D3 it will cover two options

  1. tech in place
  2. no tech

usually a buffered jab won't hit a person who techs in place because of their invincibility but since D3's advantage is so bad it hits him. Also. Our jab has a +7 advantage against D3 if he lands on the ground so that's a guaranteed grab


@A2ZOMG: good stuff, I think I'll make a vid of some good options our of D-throw
 

A2ZOMG

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#15
You're probably going to have to show me how delayed D-tilt works on Metaknight. I don't feel creative enough to find out myself what exactly you mean.

Also I don't really get the difference between DIing away with no tech and not teching, which to me is essentially the same option. The four main options are going behind G&W (USUALLY with a techroll), not teching at all (which G&W can cover on reaction if he's expecting it), teching in place, or techrolling away. But I'm just nitpicking.

And hmmm, the fact that you can cover both DDD's tech in place and no tech with Jab means that our frame data has a slight error. Against DDD, G&W has to wait for exactly 15 frames before his first actionable frame after DDD hits the ground, and a Jab that is active from frames 4-5 would hit on frames 19-20 of DDD's tech, which would not overlap a vulnerable frame. HOWEVER because of what you found, it turns out our Jab is actually active from frames 4-6, which is a total of not 2, but 3 frames! I knew that you could do something similar to Donkey Kong with the 2nd active frame of G&W's Jab. But it seems if your frame advantage is exactly 11 for tech in place, you can meaty them with the 3rd frame of Jab consistently every time!

Also the frame advantage on hit for meaty Jab on DDD is +6, but you have 7 frames to grab him, one of them being his first actionable frame where he has no fast enough options to stop your grab or avoid it.
 

GimR

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#16
there are 6 options out of d-throw:

  1. tech in place
  2. no tech
  3. DI away no tech
  4. tech away
  5. tech behind
  6. DI behind no tech



this is important because u-tilt will hit mk if he misses a tech in place but will not hit mk if he misses a tech roll away from GW. See what I'm saying?

The delayed d-tilt is just not buffering your d-tilt, if you wait 5 or 6 frames and then d-tilt it will connect
 

A2ZOMG

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#17
there are 6 options out of d-throw:

  1. tech in place
  2. no tech
  3. DI away no tech
  4. tech away
  5. tech behind
  6. DI behind no tech



this is important because u-tilt will hit mk if he misses a tech in place but will not hit mk if he misses a tech roll away from GW. See what I'm saying?

The delayed d-tilt is just not buffering your d-tilt, if you wait 5 or 6 frames and then d-tilt it will connect
I'm probably giving bias to D-tilt, Jab, and Dash attack given I consider them the bread and butter tools for covering options near G&W, and the way G&W users can alter their decisions based on those moves. Point taken though.

I checked a little more carefully. D-tilt connecting on Metaknight's away roll has some weird hitbox issues. Sometimes doing it at high percents helps. Ultimately taking a step forward is the best way to guarantee it works.

UPDATE: Anyhow, I have frame advantage numbers and a few followup details for every character. I'm probably like...70% done with this guide if my estimations are correct. Regardless enjoy. I'll see if I can figure out where the remaining 30% is (mostly a result of being lazy, cutting small corners in testing for options, though everything listed here at the moment is completely accurate, and there are no instances of landing techchase F-air that are nearly as difficult as DDD's away roll afaik). Ideally in the process of finding everything that matters that would would want to know...I'll find a way to clean up that data and make it into a nice chart of some sort that is easy to understand.
 

A2ZOMG

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#20
Remaining 30% of what I think would make this guide extra amazing:

*Cleaning up data and converting it into some kind of easy to read table or chart
*Actually double checking options on all characters who techroll in
*Not cutting corners in general (ugh, look at that list of options G&W has to techchase) and getting real frame data on how easy or difficult everything is to do.
*Fun stuff involving Snake's Mine (use your imagination!)
*Pictures and videos giving visual demonstration of everything awesome.
 

9-BiT

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#21
This guide is pretty handy, thanks a lot. Any estimates on finishing, don't rush, just want to know if your still planning to finish it. Not trying to be greedy :D.
~8-BiT
 

A2ZOMG

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#22
The remaining 30% is not super important. It's just going to make the guide look more awesome. For the most part though everything I have at the moment is pretty much everything and more that you would want to know about G&W's options for techchasing.

It's probably going to take me at least two uninterrupted days of research and agonizing over formats to come up with something that I can call 100% complete in my book. I probably don't really have that time at the moment...
 

9-BiT

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#23
Ok, thanks.
Yah, that was the only knock I had against it, it was a tad unreadable, by that I mean it's a block of text, not everyone is going to read it.
~8-BiT (SOOOO ANNOYING LOL)
 
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#24
Hey A2, I have problems regrabing after a succesful Dthrow > techroll read (esp against peach).
She usually dodge (but then eat a charged Usmash) or Roll behind, thus making harder to connect, or simply jab (so I should shield grab). So basically I think I would prefer to simply dash attack when she tries to attack me, and Usmash if my opponent spotdodge right after.
 

A2ZOMG

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#25
Peach is a slightly harder character to techchase after techroll because her techroll goes a bit far. I recommend F-airing her on a read. You don't really have too many other great options against her.
 

A2ZOMG

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#29
To be honest, I'm not sure how to quantify necessary frame advantage for techchasing into Judgement. What I would need first is a way of quantifying techroll distances. Techroll distance above anything else determines the ease of followups for most of G&W's techchase options.

If I wanted to waste a lot of time, I could try to get images of how far G&W can reach with techchase options if he buffers everything correctly. But it's not going to mean a whole lot when I'm not capable of concisely representing techroll distances at the moment. I know the old D-throw topic does have approximations for techroll distances, but I'm not sure how yet how to plug it into my data.

Also slightly off topic, if you want to do GIMR's N-air option select, then you must have at minimum a 27 frame advantage on techroll, but characters like Zelda, Marth, Peach, and Link techroll too far for the final hit to reach them in time (you can F-air all of them just fine. Nobody is nearly as hard to catch on techroll away as DDD). Ivysaur is one of those cases where she is too short for the N-air to properly connect if I recall.
 

Cubone

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#30
A buddy of mine that mains sonic was saying that GW can dthrow sonic, take 1 step forward and fsmash and it will always hit him regardless of what he does. Haven't had a chance to test it though.
 
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#31
A buddy of mine that mains sonic was saying that GW can dthrow sonic, take 1 step forward and fsmash and it will always hit him regardless of what he does. Haven't had a chance to test it though.
I play with Josh, and it doesn't work if he techs or does get up attack. It covers all of his non-tech options though (aside from get-up attack).
 

A2ZOMG

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#32
I'm extremely doubtful that works on techroll. I mean, Pikachu is one of the best examples of a character who gets ***** on techchase by G&W, and I'm pretty sure I could not get it to work on him.

When I have some time on my hands, I will doublecheck options, and I will have everything organized into a chart of some sort that is much easier to read than the mess of data that I currently have.
 

iamjason8

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#33
Amazing... Good thing I don't have to read too much of it though since I only use GaW to fight a few characters.

But sincerely, thank you A2ZOMG for such an amazing and I'd assume time consuming service for all your fellow Game and Watchers and GaWers to come! =^_^=
 

-Ominous-

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#34
These are going to be amazingly useful. I totally see what you mean by how abusive we can be with Dthrow.
 

GimR

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#35
I feel like such an idiot for not thinking about footstool to D-air for big characters, uuuuuuughghghghgh. Good stuff A2ZOMG
 

A2ZOMG

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#39
Yes, footstool is completely legit on people who tech in place or techroll.

I'm not certain it works on say...DDD's techroll away. But it is an option on every tech in place in the game and I've definitely gotten it to work after testing it on a few techrolls.

A warning though, it is substantially more difficult to techchase with footstool than it is to techchase with anything else. Like on Ganondorf in specific, the frame window for footstooling him for teching in place is very tight, and also requires you to fullhop, which means you basically HAVE to have Tap jump on if you want to try that combo on him.

Also just for your convenience, footstools do in fact have 1 frame startup provided the positional requirements are met upon inputting Jump.
 
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#40
A2, so basically 5+1 frames for footstooling? Looks pretty good imo.

Also yeah I agree you must somehow include roll and tech roll lengh into your data, because they directly affect what options you can chose from.
 
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