Meta Donkey Kong Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[DK-RULES]

I agree. I faced a robin the other day. Same experience. I won a few matches but it was super hard. Of course, I wish dk had a bit more running speed to get around it. I don't know the name of the moves, but one of them you cannot do a running up-b to armor past it. Patience is the only thing that worked for me. But that usually meant robin can just charge in peace which sucks too.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

I agree. I faced a robin the other day. Same experience. I won a few matches but it was super hard. Of course, I wish dk had a bit more running speed to get around it. I don't know the name of the moves, but one of them you cannot do a running up-b to armor past it. Patience is the only thing that worked for me. But that usually meant robin can just charge in peace which sucks too.

His Neutral B charges as follows:
Thunder, Elthunder, Arcthunder and Thoron.
Arcthunder is the most threatening to DK because it travels slow-ish, has a huge hitbox and traps us so Robin can get combos.

FD is a bad stage for DK regardless, but this matchup really shows DK's weakness.

 

[Flamemaster96]

Is someone able to name all the characters that counters DK, is even with DK and characters that DK can counter? I'll start you off for whoever can help since I don't have the game yet.

-4:

-3:

-2:

-1:

+0-:

+1:

+2:

+3:

+4:

 

[Big O]

Is someone able to name all the characters that counters DK, is even with DK and characters that DK can counter? I'll start you off for whoever can help since I don't have the game yet.

-4:

-3:

-2:

-1:

+0-:

+1:

+2:

+3:

+4:

Moved your post here since the other thread is outdated. I think this is probably something worth making and discussing. I'll probably get around to making a preliminary list later tonight. That said, I think it's easier for people to understand what you mean when you say like Hard Counter, Soft Counter, Slight Advantage, etc. instead of +/-1.

Customs Off

Spoiler

Hard Countered By:

Soft Countered By:

Slight Disadvantage:

Evenish:

Slight Advantage:

Soft Counters:

Hard Counters:

Customs On

Spoiler

Hard Countered By:

Soft Countered By:

Slight Disadvantage:

Evenish:

Slight Advantage:

Soft Counters:

Hard Counters:

 

[Flamemaster96]

Moved your post here since the other thread is outdated. I think this is probably something worth making and discussing. I'll probably get around to making a preliminary list later tonight. That said, I think it's easier for people to understand what you mean when you say like Hard Counter, Soft Counter, Slight Advantage, etc. instead of +/-1.

Customs Off

Spoiler

Hard Countered By:

Soft Countered By:

Slight Disadvantage:

Evenish:

Slight Advantage:

Soft Counters:

Hard Counters:

Customs On

Spoiler

Hard Countered By:

Soft Countered By:

Slight Disadvantage:

Evenish:

Slight Advantage:

Soft Counters:

Hard Counters:

Omg dude, thank you soo much!

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Moved your post here since the other thread is outdated. I think this is probably something worth making and discussing. I'll probably get around to making a preliminary list later tonight. That said, I think it's easier for people to understand what you mean when you say like Hard Counter, Soft Counter, Slight Advantage, etc. instead of +/-1.

Customs Off

Spoiler

Hard Countered By:

Soft Countered By:

Slight Disadvantage:

Evenish:

Slight Advantage:

Soft Counters:

Hard Counters:

Dedede might even be a soft counter, while I feel Mario is a slight disadvantage for Dk. Megaman I would put evenish maybe, while I would put marth, Lucina, and Ike into somewhere between slight advantage to soft counter (ie Dk is strong vs them), shulk in soft counter as well (if they don't know how to use shulks vision, which many to most shulks don't know how to do, then thy have no chance vs Dk). All of the soft counters you listed that Dk is strong against I'm unsure about, I think a good little Mac is not easy to deal with, while a good falco and game and watch could only be at a slight disadvantage, but I'm not sure. And I can't say that I've ever actually fought a great bowser jr. So I really have no idea what to say about him.

But I can tell we play the same character lol, you've got a good list.

 

[Flamemaster96]

Dedede might even be a soft counter, while I feel Mario is a slight disadvantage for Dk. Megaman I would put evenish maybe, while I would put marth, Lucina, and Ike into somewhere between slight advantage to soft counter (ie Dk is strong vs them), shulk in soft counter as well (if they don't know how to use shulks vision, which many to most shulks don't know how to do, then thy have no chance vs Dk). All of the soft counters you listed that Dk is strong against I'm unsure about, I think a good little Mac is not easy to deal with, while a good falco and game and watch could only be at a slight disadvantage, but I'm not sure. And I can't say that I've ever actually fought a great bowser jr. So I really have no idea what to say about him.

But I can tell we play the same character lol, you've got a good list.

All 3 of us play DK lol DK is awesome.

 

[Big O]

Dedede might even be a soft counter, while I feel Mario is a slight disadvantage for Dk. Megaman I would put evenish maybe, while I would put marth, Lucina, and Ike into somewhere between slight advantage to soft counter (ie Dk is strong vs them), shulk in soft counter as well (if they don't know how to use shulks vision, which many to most shulks don't know how to do, then thy have no chance vs Dk). All of the soft counters you listed that Dk is strong against I'm unsure about, I think a good little Mac is not easy to deal with, while a good falco and game and watch could only be at a slight disadvantage, but I'm not sure. And I can't say that I've ever actually fought a great bowser jr. So I really have no idea what to say about him.

But I can tell we play the same character lol, you've got a good list.

While I'm not entirely sure on Little Mac since the MU can be very unstable and facing good ones is so rare, I just had to go with what my experience so far tells me.

I would've put Ike as a good MU for DK if it wasn't for his Eruption edgeguard being very effective at catching us for free.

Shulk Vision Counter (and Lucina/Marth Counter) are just too scary to make me think we full on soft counter them. Shulk's Buster combos and shield damage/kb are pretty nuts and can just blow you up out of nowhere.

I used to think D3 was a really bad MU, but after playing a lot of games vs really good japanesse D3's I've learned how to deal with his jank. Like the way a pro D3 uses Gordos is like an ocean apart from how non-pro D3's use it. Once you get used to the spacings/timings for optimal and unpunishable Gordo spam two things happen. Anything but optimal Gordo spam becomes a lot easier to punish and optimal Gordo usage starts becoming predictable, which helps you deal with it. D3 is also extremely susceptible to jump > Cargo Utoss > DJ Uair and Cargo Utoss > Jump Uair. If he gets grabbed at like 90+ he's dead unless you have crazy rage, which then makes it a 50-50 KO setup instead. He is also bad getting out of juggles anyway, so at lower %'s grabs = 20+% plus a good chance of followup damage.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Share some replays of you vs some great (not good, but great) d3s so I can learn the matchup. Because I've learned how to beat the really good ones, but the great ones are really hard for me. I'm also a little hesitant about fox, I think a great fox can give Dk a little too much trouble, somewhere between a 6-7 to 4-3 advantage.
I've faced many great Ike's and only one could beat me more than once. Ike simply has no chance.

 

[A.D.]

Once you get used to the spacings/timings for optimal and unpunishable Gordo spam two things happen. Anything but optimal Gordo spam becomes a lot easier to punish and optimal Gordo usage starts becoming predictable, which helps you deal with it.

Could I press you for further insight on this? Are you reflecting gordo, or just shielding/avoiding and following up with a punish?

I haven't yet found anything that feels reliable for reflecting-- is there anything you could recommend? I can't seem to use jab, UpB, nair, or bair to reliably reflect gordo... is this just me?

jab 1's hitbox doesn't seem to catch gordo at the apex of its bounce. UpB lasts long enough that you'd think it could be easily thrown out, but after superarmor, gordo seems to frequently bounce over DK's fists and land a hit on his head. I cannot seem to use nair with any degree of success. Bair seems all right except when gordo goes underneath DK. Up-angled Ftilt seems ok if timed properly.

Would greatly appreciate if you've found an option that's been working for you.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Up tilt is what you use to reflect Gordos, as a primary option, preferably facing away from the dedede. It's the dededes that don't spam it and know how to use it that are the real dangers.

 

[Big O]

Could I press you for further insight on this? Are you reflecting gordo, or just shielding/avoiding and following up with a punish?

I haven't yet found anything that feels reliable for reflecting-- is there anything you could recommend? I can't seem to use jab, UpB, nair, or bair to reliably reflect gordo... is this just me?

jab 1's hitbox doesn't seem to catch gordo at the apex of its bounce. UpB lasts long enough that you'd think it could be easily thrown out, but after superarmor, gordo seems to frequently bounce over DK's fists and land a hit on his head. I cannot seem to use nair with any degree of success. Bair seems all right except when gordo goes underneath DK. Up-angled Ftilt seems ok if timed properly.

Would greatly appreciate if you've found an option that's been working for you.

If you want to reflect it with 0% risk of trading with the Gordo, you have to use Utilt just before it reaches you. You don't have to face backwards, but it is easier to time it properly if you do. You can use Jab, Ftilt, Dtilt, Dsmash, Dash Attack, etc. but they require strict spacing and/or are a little slower than you'd like. Unless you were pretty close to him, you should be prepared for D3 to reflect it back with Dtilt or catch it with his Side B. Also, the stronger the move you use to reflect the Gordo, the stronger it gets. I think it goes faster too, but I'm not 100% sure on that since I don't reflect it with big moves very often.

In the air you have to time Up B properly to reflect it without trading. Uair/Bair work too but you need a bit of space and the right angle to work without trading. In a pinch your Side B's large aerial disjoint can work (mostly useful when falling near a ledge). The sourspot hitbox on Nair also works more often than you think it would (still a little risky). In general I try to avoid the Gordo when in the air. If you ever find yourself diagonally above D3, that's when you are screwed and his Gordo is scary. Just jump away and/or air dodge in that situation.

When he uses a slow Gordo like a Sonic Boom or ledge trap, it's usually better to just block it or wait it out unless he is moving with it. If you knock it away it takes a little longer for him to spawn another one than if you block it, but you generally don't want to challenge him in a game of Gordo Pong.

Share some replays of you vs some great (not good, but great) d3s so I can learn the matchup. Because I've learned how to beat the really good ones, but the great ones are really hard for me. I'm also a little hesitant about fox, I think a great fox can give Dk a little too much trouble, somewhere between a 6-7 to 4-3 advantage.
I've faced many great Ike's and only one could beat me more than once. Ike simply has no chance.

I probably should have saved those replays lol. In the future I'll try to remember to start collecting some good matches.

 

[itsaxelol]

i would put fox, luigi, pikachu, mega man and shiek up a few to the "***** DK" tier

 

[Ulevo]

What are your thoughts on the Meta Knight match up.

 

[Big O]

i would put fox, luigi, pikachu, mega man and shiek up a few to the "***** DK" tier

Out of the ones you listed I find Pikachu to be the hardest, but he dies to random stuff and won't really outright KO you before 120%.

Fox definitely has the advantage against DK, but I've never really been beaten to the point where I feel the MU is terrible.

Shiek is really dumb, but the disparity in damage per hit and KO power is too great for her to really be a terrible MU.

Megaman is honestly not that bad. I don't really see it as a bad MU, just annoying.

Luigi boils down to don't get grabbed and don't clank with his Fireball. Anything not terribly mispaced is safe on his shield and you can beat any non-Fireball approach he does cleanly. His Fireball is just ********, but all you really need to do is powershield it and/or just run away. I have a feeling that if you really played the lame game with him at any point after you have a lead, that he just falls apart.

What are your thoughts on the Meta Knight match up.

That's probably one of my least played MU's since I hardly ever see him. My guess is he has a slight advantage against DK, but I haven't really played against him. MK's combos keep looking scarier every time I see a video featuring him and DK is combo food. The nerfs to his damage/hitboxes/kb and nado not being uber are probably the what keeps it from being as terrible as it was in Brawl. The hitbox nerfs in particular allow for DK to more comfortably stuff MK's approaches and play the footsie game.

It'd be cool to go up against some good MK players and see how it plays out.

 

[DrRiceBoy]

What are your thoughts on the Meta Knight match up.

Speaking from my own experience, I think Meta Knight is at an advantage. Main advantage is the fact that MK is able to combo DK. Hard. Especially since DK is already vulnerable as heck to combos, and how one of MK's biggest strength is his ability to combo.

MK can also take advantage of DK's poor vertical recovery. Edgeguarding and gimping is rather easy for MK to do because of DK's predictable recovery. Another point is that edgeguarding is kinda hard for DK to do because of MK's ridiculous recovery.

Main thing for DK in this matchup is his range imo. MK has terrible range and most of DK's moves are pretty long. Space bair and tilts. MK's moves also have less priority I believe.

MK's arguable best killing is his up-b (which dash attack and down-throw usually combos into) which kills off the ceiling. DK survives to this longer than most of the cast, so take advantage of rage. If you're at a high enough percent, dash attack and down-throw won't be able to combo into it anymore. MK is rather light so killing shouldn't be hard.

 

[Ulevo]

On my initial assessment of playing against DK, I'd say you're wrong about the recovery. Meta Knight has no tools to deal with Donkey Kong's cyclone because the hitbox horizontally is too big to intercept and you're never going to be in a situation where you're above Donkey Kong unless he's too low to grab the ledge.

Donkey Kong is combo food, however on the ground he seems pretty solid. Up tilt in particular make it very difficult to try and approach from the air. Something else worth noting is that it can sometimes be difficult to cross up against him with dash attack thanks to his big size, and this can result in Meta Knight getting grabbed.

One thing I will say is Mach Tornado can turn the tables pretty quickly, especially on stages with platforms, since Donkey Kong has no reliable way to prevent Meta Knight from poking through the shield from below. Even if DK reliably shields it the first time, which is difficult, Meta Knight does it again shortly after for free damage.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

@ itsaxelol and @ Big O don't forget to post replays, I posted some earlier when the patch first came out vs some average players, some scrubs, and one dedede who was very good but not great. If you don't want all of your friends to see them you can just send them directly to me if you want, and I can give my "rebuttal" ie my own method (with a replay sent to you) vs a similarly skilled player with the same character to see how our approaches work out.

i would put fox, luigi, pikachu, mega man and shiek up a few to the "***** DK" tier

I think the fact that my brother played sheik in melee and pikachu in 64 prevents me from viewing those characters as ones Dk can't beat...I actually get excited facing them. In many ways those characters haven't changed much from those games, Dk has changed since 64 much more than they did from 64 and melee respectively, but even with the changed mechanics in addition to that I don't view them any differently. If I don't win it's not because they are too strong for Dk but because I did not play correctly vs them. Though realistically pikachu has a good advantage, sheik probably a lesser one now.

Fox and luigi are tough to deal with, and Mario can be too...mega man is annoying but I think I haven't faced many elite ones either to give a solid opinion on him.

 

[itsaxelol]

are either of you on? @ Big O @ DaRkJaWs

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Oops I was but I was trying ness out for the first time. Was so much fun compared to Dk lol, I'm kinda burned out on him for the moment. Haven't used ness since 64, like Dk he was terrible in melee and not sure how I viewed him in brawl.

 

[Big O]

are either of you on? @ Big O @ DaRkJaWs

I won't really be available to play until Monday night or Tuesday. Did you have something in mind like new ideas to try out or MU's to practice?

 

[DomBadZZZ]

WHO'S LOW TIER NOW?! http://www.twitch.tv/dkwill/v/4878284

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Actually you can do that at various percentages given the character you're facing with a tech on up+b will doesn't know how to do.

 

[DomBadZZZ]

Actually you can do that at various percentages given the character you're facing with a tech on up+b will doesn't know how to do.

What is it? Also do you know how reliable it is?

 

[DaRkJaWs]

What is it? Also do you know how reliable it is?

If they aren't expecting it then it's reliable, but like with all things in smash 4 you can DI out of it so less damage is done. You can momentum reverse your up b when in the air to get them at the right angle to do the multihit attack. How you momentum reverse I won't reveal until a later date, however. This makes his regular up throw somewhat useful now as well, and actually even his down throw is useful with momentum reversing special attacks that Dk can do.

 

[Hokuwokk]

So i have a questions regarding DK's nair. Whenever i hit someone with it and they block i always get grabbed for free. Is there anyway to avoid this? Im aware that I can cross them up with it so it'd be hard for them to grab me but i sometimes have trouble doing that or if i do hit them while they block they sometimes react fast enough and i just eat a bair. Is there any other ways I can make nair safe and not get punished for it?

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Talking about on stage only. You only do a neutral air if you are approaching them (preferably always facing backward) and they have tightened the space such that a back air would no longer hit (be sure to fast fall when appropriate). You don't approach in the air facing forward except in special circumstances, and my guess is this is why they are grabbing you so easily.

 

[DomBadZZZ]

So i have a questions regarding DK's nair. Whenever i hit someone with it and they block i always get grabbed for free. Is there anyway to avoid this? Im aware that I can cross them up with it so it'd be hard for them to grab me but i sometimes have trouble doing that or if i do hit them while they block they sometimes react fast enough and i just eat a bair. Is there any other ways I can make nair safe and not get punished for it?

Your best bet if that happening to you alot is to just mix it up and empty hop > grab them instead, also only use nair when you can space it well to help you land so a retreating nair that they will have to run into if they are trying the shield grab, definiely dont use it as an approach tool or youll just keep getting grabbed, approach with run-up shield or bairs if anything. I usually think nair is used best in the air maybe after popping them up with a jab combo for a quick follow up, or running off the stage and nairing to try and gimp their recovery (obviously situational, but good)

PS if they are shield grabbing your aerials a lot use side B on that shield of theirs and pop it like a balloon and proceed to taunt

Hope this helps!

 

[DK-RULES]

Hey everyone. with today's update, cargo air side and down throw have a better follow up option. Before when you did a cargo side/down throw, you would kind of get "stuck" in an air before you can jump. NOW the follow up jump is fast making it more similar to brawl/PM options.

 

[A.D.]

Hey everyone. with today's update, cargo air side and down throw have a better follow up option. Before when you did a cargo side/down throw, you would kind of get "stuck" in an air before you can jump. NOW the follow up jump is fast making it more similar to brawl/PM options.

It's almost like his vertical momentum completely stops/freezes as he makes the aerial d-throw. This is really awesome.

It changes the timing of the cargo d-throw against the stage, since you have to drop a little lower before you execute. They will have a little extra time to break out. However, it is now really hard to kill yourself if you mess up, so you have no excuse not to go for it imo

At high percents, it seems like you can legitimately cargo grab, fall off the stage, get some distance, and cargo dthrow if the opponent doesn't mash out in time. There are a couple of characters who cannot seem to recover from this (in training mode, at least) while you will make it back to the stage with ease

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Can't wait to test this!

Ok first of all now we can do cargo forward or back throw against the stage without dying, so this is a HUGE buff to dk, one where you may see cargo downthrow against the stage cease because cargo throwing forward or backward is now faster and doesn't require one turn around per say. The second thing i wanted to mention is that at very low percents dk can combo cargo downthrow to forward air to spike! Of course they have to di incorrectly and not air dodge in order to hit it.

 

[Luigi player]

I think DK will really like Dreamland 64!

Cargo jump Utoss -> Uair from the lower platforms KOs at like 70 % with DI and can true combo against some fast fallers (Captain Falcon for example).
And don't get me started on the top platform... you can KO Sheik as low as 30-35 (if she DIs the direction DK looks at she'll survive at 30, but will die at 35, didn't test exact KO-% though, just tested 30 and 35.
So if you ever manage to grab someone up there you know what to do.

The lower platforms are also a little higher than on BF, which means you can sh fair off of them without getting the huge landinglag from it (or having to do a special move upon landing to cancel that). It also gives more room and space. The platforms are also smaller in general which helps that case even more.

Since the side blastzones of the stage are pretty far away you can also make use of your weight a little more than on some other stages.

 

[Donkeykong98123]

It's kind of character specific, but vs Lightweights(most notably Rosalina) we can tipper Jab into turnaround Utilt for a kill at around 110. It doesn't count as a true combo in training, but by testing with a friend, they cannot jump out if you get the correct timing, and airdodging gets them killed anyways.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Hi, guys! How's it going?

I ask of you to make an input on the Kirby MU thread about the matchup with your character, Donkey Kong. Here is the link, and I heavily encourage you to give us your feedback to the MU, so that we may both learn and know what to look out for. Thank you very much guys, and protect those bananas!

 

[Neon!]

This is probably one of the better matches I've played recently.

Emery (DK) vs Denti (Yoshi) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2G2jsRGp3M

 

[Luigi player]

Do all DKs use cargo jump utoss -> doublejump fair yet? I've seen Will do it, but just in case some don't know about it I wanted to mention it.
It works at low % and you have to hit with the back part (behind DK, maybe above too) of the fair for it to be a true combo. If you have too much rage or the opponent too much % he'll be hit too far up. But it did work twice in a row for me against Diddy Kong, doing like 52 %. It should work if you and your opponent are at like <=26 % or so. Character/fallspeed dependant of course.

It does hella damage, and while it doesn't set up for more uairs like an uair, it can set up for bairs, which is a more favorable position for DK, imo (I often got hit out of trying to uair people twice out of a cargo, sometimes I have to airdodge after the first uair to not get hit, which is kinda stupid).

 

[NachoOfCheese]

If we're talking about DK's worst matchups, lets talk about Fox.
His double jab combo thing works at nearly all percents. The Fox in my region (his name is Ksev, he gets top 8 at our weekly every single time) has mastered it and it's not escapable at most percents. This is huge. And Jab Jab Down Smash gives him a reliable 2-frame kill confirm against us. We don't have a good disadvantage state. Fox has one of the best advantage states in the game. It ain't a fun matchup. And not to mention Fox's fair spikes killing us at nearly any percent. He has amazing approach options, and with his mobility and frame data, he outbuttons us. Thanks to his speed, our ftilt and dtilt aren't exactly safe.
We do have some tools to make it winnable, however. We edgeguard him really well, and Cargo Up throw -> Fair works at many %s thanks to his ludicrous fall speed. And rage is a thing. But that's about it.

This is probably one of the better matches I've played recently.

Emery (DK) vs Denti (Yoshi) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2G2jsRGp3M

May I ask why you chose the lightning punch? I prefer the default but I've never really used that one.

 

[Luigi player]

Yeah Fox is pretty bad. Sheik too... actually, many MUs are really bad for DK. Played him mostly today at our friendly sessions, and it's just terrible. Please let me land back onstage. Please let me hit a hit in. Somehow it seems every other character has safe pokes and everything they do beats everything DK has to offer. The sideB isn't scary at all since their shield will always hit one of them. And after one hit they won't shield again. Think you can take advantage of that? Not really. DK has a hard time, really. He feels completely terrible most of the time. Though sometimes when he does get reads and manages to go in it's super fun. I've found his grounded upB to be really useful. Beats most things except for shielding, after which you'll get punished.

I've also played with customs today... His jump sideB would help him sooo much at landing, it's ridicuouls. Too bad he doesn't have that as a normal tool (without customs). With customs DK is a pretty good character...

 

[Big O]

I know the timing of this is probably off considering EVO is this week (and we could've really used this before EVO), but starting this week I will be putting into motion something I think we can all get behind.

I was thinking of starting a community guide that centralizes all of our competitive knowledge and insights in the OP and the first few posts after that. This in itself will be a pretty big undertaking because of the scale for such a thread. Basically it will be in 2 main parts. The first part will be a hub that links to or contains all AT's, combos, KO%'s, character attributes, and mechanics that are applicable to DK as well as an in-depth moveset analysis (data driven knowledge). The second part will be a collection of player tips, insights, and strategies (metagame driven knowledge).

You guys can freely contribute to the thread for either field and be given credit if you care about being given credit. I know data wise there are a lot of things that could be determined and compiled. Even something as simple as a complete list of characters too short for SH Bair would be helpful and good to know (hint hint). The metagame portion will be pretty free form, but the entries would be organized logically and over time may just evolve into something really cool. Even if you don't have anything to add directly, you can still shed some light on anything that needs to be done or make suggestions to improve the thread.

The details of how it will all be structured is still in the works and will probably change a bit over time, but I think something like this will help us to reach the next level. There is a lot of room for growth and untapped potential in this game, in our players, and in our character (despite some of the doom and gloom cropping up every now and then). Be on the lookout, winter the metapocalypse is coming. Maybe even get a little hype, the DK boards could certainly use a little lol.

 

[DomBadZZZ]

I've been thinking long and hard about how to optimize his play style in terms of approaches, punishes, landing options and other situations. I'll see if I can come up with something comprehensive to help. It'll help me get my game in the right direction in the process.