• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Don’t Park on the Grass 2018: Takeaways?

Pippin (Peregrin Took)

Formerly “ItalianBaptist”
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
949
Switch FC
SW-0542-4021-7641
So our first major is in the books (at least that’s what I’m hearing - people aren’t counting Launch at Xanadu I guess). I have some random musings about the event that I thought I’d get off my chest.

Who is this Konga guy? I don’t remember seeing him in Smash 4 but he looks like a promising up and comer in the Ultimate scene. I really look forward to seeing more of him in 2019.

Another pools set I found personally interesting is available via VGBC’s YouTube channel: Abraman (Ridley) vs. Raf (Dark Pit). Pittoo was my main in Smash 4 and seeing him in action in this game makes me want to pick him up again. And he used my color :)

The secondary stream (PeakGaming) had a fantastic setup for pools that I hadn’t seen before. It was basically a multiscreen so that commentators could switch over to games that were immediately about to start or they saw something interesting in. I really liked it and I hope they do more of that in the future. Dead time being a thing of the past would make me very happy.
 

S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
3,977
Location
NH, Discord: SB#6077
Switch FC
SW 5369-1969-6280
Snake may need a tiny bit of toning down, mainly in his utilt which is super strong, super fast and has a fairly large hitbox.

I've been seeing Snakes winning more than just DPG. He's not Bayo levels, but his kit is a bit overloaded with all of the zoning, stage control, weight, and spiking tools he has.

He either needs to be worse at CQC (ironically) or to have his ranged tools toned down a bit. The Nikita is basically a guaranteed KO against many characters once he has them off the edge and can begin the chase.

He doesn't need sledgehammer nerfs, just tweaks.
 

osby

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
23,460
Snake may need a tiny bit of toning down, mainly in his utilt which is super strong, super fast and has a fairly large hitbox.

I've been seeing Snakes winning more than just DPG. He's not Bayo levels, but his kit is a bit overloaded with all of the zoning, stage control, weight, and spiking tools he has.

He either needs to be worse at CQC (ironically) or to have his ranged tools toned down a bit. The Nikita is basically a guaranteed KO against many characters once he has them off the edge and can begin the chase.

He doesn't need sledgehammer nerfs, just tweaks.
If you think he's too good, you should've seen him in Brawl.
 

Sean²

Smash Capitalist
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,657
Switch FC
SW-7479-8539-5283
Interesting that everyone sleeps on Snake in Ultimate until someone wins a major with him, now people want him nerfed.
 

S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
3,977
Location
NH, Discord: SB#6077
Switch FC
SW 5369-1969-6280
Can we not confuse suggesting they add a few more frames to Snake's utilt startup with calling for him to be nerfed into the ground?

Or we could not nerf anyone and learn to adapt.
No offense, but this is the same thinking that allowed SSB4's meta to burn to the ground while the community stood by and did nothing, with SSB4's final appearance at Evo being a literal embarrassment to the entire SSB community.

Again, I feel from watching more than a few Snake players in tournaments that Snake has a bit too much in his kit. Keyword: bit. And I'm fully willing to admit that I could be wrong, but only because parrying hasn't truly been mastered yet and that mechanic alone will make a huge difference in how many matchups play out.
 
Last edited:

Xebenkeck

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
1,636
Location
My Head
So the game is 17 days old. There are 74 characters which means there are 2701 different match-ups in this game.

Man your perception is godlike if you think you know how balanced a character is already.

The first patch for balance should at the earliest come out after 6-8 months. Not a few weeks.
 

Marmotbro

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
148
Snake may need a tiny bit of toning down, mainly in his utilt which is super strong, super fast and has a fairly large hitbox.

I've been seeing Snakes winning more than just DPG. He's not Bayo levels, but his kit is a bit overloaded with all of the zoning, stage control, weight, and spiking tools he has.

He either needs to be worse at CQC (ironically) or to have his ranged tools toned down a bit. The Nikita is basically a guaranteed KO against many characters once he has them off the edge and can begin the chase.

He doesn't need sledgehammer nerfs, just tweaks.
As a Snake main I can say he is good, likely top tier, but he definitely doesn't need nerfs. He can get out zoned by pretty much any other zoner, he can get juggled very easy, his best kill move has a small hitbox and is easy to play around, and his recovery is easy to counter. The matchup against belmonts is damn near unwinnable too. Really the main thing with him is he requires setting up the board for snake to be good, if you can play around grenades and mind the C4 you can keep him in disadvantage forever.

No offense, but this is the same thinking that allowed SSB4's meta to burn to the ground while the community stood by and did nothing, with SSB4's final appearance at Evo being a literal embarrassment to the entire SSB community.
I definitely agree with the sentiment, but it is apples to oranges. This game is new. The meta has only started to show, when bayo showed up and started wrecking shop the meta was well established, we all knew very well she was too good by just comparing her with the best characters at the time.
 

S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
3,977
Location
NH, Discord: SB#6077
Switch FC
SW 5369-1969-6280
So the game is 17 days old. There are 74 characters which means there are 2701 different match-ups in this game.

Man your perception is godlike if you think you know how balanced a character is already.

The first patch for balance should at the earliest come out after 6-8 months. Not a few weeks.
Yes, and we've labbed a decent number of those matchups and can see where the cracks form when some characters attempt to fight others.

Snake has counters (Fox seems to be a good choice for that), but while D3 had counters in Brawl, it didn't stop him from being the "gatekeeper" to a huge chunk of the roster that was easily destroyed by him.

Again, I'll point to my statement on parrying, which is the true x-factor in all of this. We don't know what a parry-centric gameplay style is going to do for this meta in a few months. No one has truly mastered parrying, and it can and WILL shape how matchups play out.

But that's the only reason I'll say it could yet change.

An overloaded kit is overloaded, and as I mentioned with Brawl D3, it doesn't matter if that character has some counters if they readily destroy most of the roster. They're still going to be problematic to the health of the meta as a whole.

This is about the time I expect people to trot out the old "Don't nerf, but buff others!" argument, and if they want an example of a game where that sort of balancing is put into effect, look no further than Overwatch, a game that's so plagued by power creep that it's not uncommon for them to completely rework a character every 2-3 months because the buffs other characters have been given have all but invalidated some of the other characters.

It's far better to bring a few outlying characters back down to baseline level than it is to attempt to buff everyone up to the echelons of a single overpowered character. For example, Project M nerfed MK right out of the gate. They didn't try to bring the entire rest of the roster up to his level of brokenness because that would've made everything worse.

I'm guessing we won't see our first real balance patch for a while yet, and I'm fine with that, but it's definitely the case that some characters are going to need to be toned down ever so slightly and don't be surprised when balance patches do just that.

And frankly, let's hope Sakurai and co don't borrow the OW team's sledgehammer for doing a job that should've been done with a scalpel.
 

Marmotbro

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
148
An overloaded kit is overloaded, and as I mentioned with Brawl D3, it doesn't matter if that character has some counters if they readily destroy most of the roster. They're still going to be problematic to the health of the meta as a whole.

This is about the time I expect people to trot out the old "Don't nerf, but buff others!" argument, and if they want an example of a game where that sort of balancing is put into effect, look no further than Overwatch, a game that's so plagued by power creep that it's not uncommon for them to completely rework a character every 2-3 months because the buffs other characters have been given have all but invalidated some of the other characters.

It's far better to bring a few outlying characters back down to baseline level than it is to attempt to buff everyone up to the echelons of a single overpowered character. For example, Project M nerfed MK right out of the gate. They didn't try to bring the entire rest of the roster up to his level of brokenness because that would've made everything worse.
Yeah but it is way too early to nerf anyone. We don't know how to fight anyone in this game. You wanna talk about gatekeeping, the Belmonts invalidate half the roster, snake included. You wanna talk about overtuned kits, Inkling has incredible moves and will likely be good even if they get nerfed. I think these characters are the best in the game, but I don't want them to be nerfed yet because who really knows?

This is not the point in time where we can say we know balance enough to call for nerfs. Buffs are a different matter, I can play one round as little mac and tell you what hot garbage he is.
 

Xebenkeck

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
1,636
Location
My Head
D3 was a gate keeper in brawl primarily because he had the lollololol easy chaingrab on the entire cast across the length of the stage with one of the biggest grab ranges to get the grab and could infinate 6 of the cast.

Really game breaking mechanics like that are gone in ultimate. If there were any id agree that they should be patched out. But back to snake nothing he has is as game breaking as that ddd chaingrab was. Yes grenades are annoying yes nikita is a really good edge guarding tool.

But id argue that are exactly that great tools. Not game breaking, match-up breaking, tier list gatekeeping options. There is nothing wrong with a character being good. Someone inevitably will be the best and the worst. So long as the gap is reasonable its the best we can hope for.

Ultimate from all the videos and tourney results so far appears to be remarkably close in its balance. I still probably couldnt give an answer to who the best character is because there are a lot of possible contenders. Most people say inkling right now, but i can see the arguments for many other characters.
 
Last edited:

S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
3,977
Location
NH, Discord: SB#6077
Switch FC
SW 5369-1969-6280
D3 was a gate keeper in brawl primarily because he had the lollololol easy chaingrab on the entire cast across the length of the stage with one of the biggest grab ranges to get the grab and could infinate 6 of the cast.
The reason for it is irrelevant, though. If you tried to play a character that D3 dunked on, you were going to lose to D3.

If we're lucky, sure, 60-40 would be the worst matchup spread we'd ever see. My point, however, is that it doesn't matter if a character has counters (like D3 did) if much of the cast has a losing matchup against them, they still need to be addressed.

Buffs are a different matter, I can play one round as little mac and tell you what hot garbage he is.
I'm sorry, but if we're going to say it's too early to call which characters are in need of nerfs right now (which I agree with), it's also very much too early to be discussing which ones are in need of buffs, either.

I say Snake's kit feels slightly overloaded in the context of an underdeveloped meta. LM's feels underloaded in the same context. It's too soon to act on either one (especially when a LM who lands every single parry could be a literal terror...).
 

Marmotbro

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
148
I'm sorry, but if we're going to say it's too early to call which characters are in need of nerfs right now (which I agree with), it's also very much too early to be discussing which ones are in need of buffs, either.
Fair enough, but it isn't quite the same thing. Some characters are so bad that we know very quickly they have no chance, like Kirby, who has been trash since melee and looks only marginally better then he was in smash 4. I can look at little mac and tell you Chrom and Inceneroar do his gimmick but better, there is no reason to play mac competitively.

People are likely to overreact when they are getting bodied by something they aren't used to, its harder to be clear headed about nerfs then it is buffs.

LM's feels underloaded in the same context. It's too soon to act on either one (especially when a LM who lands every single parry could be a literal terror...).
If anyone lands every single parry they would be a terror regardless of who they played.
 

Superyoshiom

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
4,337
Location
The Basement
NNID
Superyoshiom
Snake is incredibly annoying and frankly unfun for my friends and I to fight against. Ever since one of our friends got good with the Nikita, he's been bodying all of us left and right. Come to watch this tournament and I see that Snake is just as much a threat in the competitive scene as well. To be honest with you, I've never been more scared of fighting a character, and as sad as it is to say, having to play a speedy character like Fox or Pikachu and make close to zero mistakes rushing down Snake just to beat him isn't fun for me, it's just stressful.

That being said, of course, I don't want to see him nerfed. What I really want is for someone to explain a good counterplay so I and many other players can get used to the matchup. If this is still a problem 6 months in, then by all means give him adjustments. But like many others have said, it really is too early to say anything for sure, even if he does look oppressive from what we've seen.
 
Last edited:

Problem2

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
2,318
Location
Crowley/Fort Worth, TX
NNID
Problem0
Snake is incredibly annoying and frankly unfun for my friends and I to fight against. Ever since one of our friends got good with the Nikita, he's been bodying all of us left and right. Come to watch this tournament and I see that Snake is just as much a threat in the competitive scene as well. To be honest with you, I've never been more scared of fighting a character, and as sad as it is to say, having to play a speedy character like Fox or Pikachu and make close to zero mistakes rushing down Snake just to beat him isn't fun for me, it's just stressful.

That being said, of course, I don't want to see him nerfed. What I really want is for someone to explain a good counterplay so I and many other players can get used to the matchup. If this is still a problem 6 months in, then by all means give him adjustments. But like many others have said, it really is too early to say anything for sure, even if he does look oppressive from what we've seen.
A lot of people don’t know yet that if you attack the nikita missile, it can’t hurt you for 60 frames.
 

S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
3,977
Location
NH, Discord: SB#6077
Switch FC
SW 5369-1969-6280
People are likely to overreact when they are getting bodied by something they aren't used to, its harder to be clear headed about nerfs then it is buffs.
True, but my stance comes from observations of tournament players and knowing the SSB4 skill levels of most of these players from back in the day.

I feel Snake's kit is at least slightly overloaded because his only real weakness is his movemenet speed, but given that Snake is built from the ground up to force his opponent to approach, it barely matters.

His frame data is pretty darn good. He has a plethora of kill options, including the Nikita, dthrow>utilt or tech chase, Uair, Bair, Fair spike, anything > C4 stick and probably some things I'm forgetting. He's tied for 16th heaviest character in the game with ROB. Thanks to his up+B not placing him in special fall, he can still mix up his recovery with either an attack or a directional airdodge.

There are characters I feel can beat him, but again, "has characters that can beat them" ≠ balanced, especially not when it limits the viability of other characters, either through Snake being a terrible matchup or for Snake just being a better choice to play as.

Again, all of this may yet add up to be fine some day if players do indeed learn to counter Snake's kit, but I've yet to really see that happen in tournaments thus far in matches between closely-skilled players.

Snake is incredibly annoying and frankly unfun for my friends and I to fight against. Ever since one of our friends got good with the Nikita, he's been bodying all of us left and right. Come to watch this tournament and I see that Snake is just as much a threat in the competitive scene as well. To be honest with you, I've never been more scared of fighting a character, and as sad as it is to say, having to play a speedy character like Fox or Pikachu and make close to zero mistakes rushing down Snake just to beat him isn't fun for me, it's just stressful.

That being said, of course, I don't want to see him nerfed. What I really want is for someone to explain a good counterplay so I and many other players can get used to the matchup. If this is still a problem 6 months in, then by all means give him adjustments. But like many others have said, it really is too early to say anything for sure, even if he does look oppressive from what we've seen.
I feel he either needs to have a bit more startup on his melee attacks or his zoning should be a bit weaker than it is, maybe the Nikita should either be slower or maybe slow down over time as it runs out of fuel.

Again, nothing huge, but characters are balanced around having strengths and weaknesses and Snake's weaknesses don't seem to hinder him all that much. Compare his slower movement speed to Pichu, a character that balances its crazy frame data and kill confirms with being far and away the lightest character in the game and having guaranteed self damage. Snake is slow, but the opponent is going to have to approach him in most cases anyway.

A lot of people don’t know yet that if you attack the nikita missile, it can’t hurt you for 60 frames.
True, but often forcing your opponent to use an aerial offstage equates KOing them anyway, plus any character with a non-hitbox recovery is hosed.
 
Last edited:

Luigifan18

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2015
Messages
3,134
Switch FC
SW-5577-0969-0868
Fair enough, but it isn't quite the same thing. Some characters are so bad that we know very quickly they have no chance, like Kirby, who has been trash since melee and looks only marginally better then he was in smash 4. I can look at little mac and tell you Chrom and Inceneroar do his gimmick but better, there is no reason to play mac competitively.

People are likely to overreact when they are getting bodied by something they aren't used to, its harder to be clear headed about nerfs then it is buffs.
I might come back to this later — right now I'm strapped for time and have nothing to say.

If anyone lands every single parry they would be a terror regardless of who they played.
I am now envisioning a metagame where all blockable attacks (i.e. most moves that aren’t grabs or Final Smashes) are completely useless outside of punishes, juggles, true combos, recoveries, and edgeguards. I do not think I like this metagame.
 

zipzo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
Messages
87
I don't really understand this seemingly popular sentiment as of late to righteously defend not having any patches until months and months after release because of some personal issue of it being "too soon".

This isn't even to mention that plenty of nerfs happen in the game completely unrelated to the competitive scene. Remember little Mac? If you think all the changes you see them make are going to reflect the right direction through the scope of the competitive community, I've got some bad news for you...

Also, the idea that they should only buff characters instead of nerf anyone is also silly. That creates power creep, and power creep is horrific for a game with so many characters that stand to be left in the dust.
 

S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
3,977
Location
NH, Discord: SB#6077
Switch FC
SW 5369-1969-6280
I don't really understand this seemingly popular sentiment as of late to righteously defend not having any patches until months and months after release because of some personal issue of it being "too soon".
I get why people want it: metagames take time to develop and we still don't know where the tierlists are truly going to land.

But yes, the way people righteously defend it is also quite silly. There's a colossal difference between saying, "If no reliable counterplay emerges in future tournaments, this character could prove to be top tier and oppressive to much of the cast." and "OMG!!! SO OP AND UNFAIR!! NERFS PLX!!!"

This isn't even to mention that plenty of nerfs happen in the game completely unrelated to the competitive scene. Remember little Mac? If you think all the changes you see them make are going to reflect the right direction through the scope of the competitive community, I've got some bad news for you...
Yeah, Sakurai said they'd be watching and balancing by elite smash, which means we could very well see nerfs and buffs rolling down the pipeline that absolutely no one asked for or truly needed.

Also, the idea that they should only buff characters instead of nerf anyone is also silly. That creates power creep, and power creep is horrific for a game with so many characters that stand to be left in the dust.
Very, VERY true. If you have one character that's an outlier, it's far safer for the meta as a whole to nerf that character than attempt to buff the other 70 to their level.

If you want to see a game that has utterly succumb to power creep, look no further than Overwatch, where they keep having to go back and rebuff characters out of being entirely obsolete due to buffs that were recently given to a different character.
 
Top Bottom