Does Zelda Need Any Buffs And If So What?

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Why favor the 10 points of shield damage? Just curious.

A bonus for landing the sweetspot on an active shield. It might not break a full shield, but it would make fighters think twice about using their shields too much.

 

[StoicPhantom]

If you're getting away with edge guarding jokers who burn double jumps at mid point off stage and air dodge 10 miles away from the ledge, you're edge guarding bad jokers, but hey, you can use bad examples.

If you honestly can't understand the spacing that would lead to those, you really shouldn't be talking on these matters. And there wasn't any of those examples, that weren't forced.

Also, I did explain, multiple times. Again, you didn't even bother to pay attention to it because you have something known as "cognitive bias" about your character. I challenged what you believe to be true, and you rejected that challenge, but I can physically disprove you in a matter of moments simply by playing a set with you. You didn't want that set tho. It's understandable, you don't want to be the primary example, I don't blame you.

Point to where you did this. I've looked back through your posts, and all you're saying is she can spam B to win. And because of that, she doesn't let you learn the "correct way". That is incredibly ridiculous from a fighting game fundamental standpoint, as fundamentals aren't something you can bypass, they are integral to the game. Just like a house wouldn't be able to stand without a foundation, you cannot play a fighting without utilizing fundamentals in some way, unless you are literally standing in one place, spamming the same attack over and over, which will lead you to getting bodied.

Not only did I point out why that was untrue, but you are still ignoring the top Zelda players that I mentioned, placing high in super majors. My "bias" isn't cognitive, it's observable reality.

And since you had difficulty understanding, I'll reiterate, not everyone can sit in an arena for hours on a friday or saturday night. Not to mention, I'm still not representative of the entire Zelda player base. Again, go play Ven or Mystearica.

And yes, some characters have specific tools to deal with things, that others do not. Does Villager's Pocket, make Villager mains not be able to handle projectiles the "correct way"? How about Wolf's reflector? Does Inkling's Splat Bomb, make it so that they can't ledge trap the "correct way", like Zelda's Phantom? Does dealing with specific character tools, like Monado Arts, mean you can't handle other characters?

He does troll competitive players with Zelda by the way. Legit. I've been telling him to upload the replays for like 2 weeks now.
He trolls with Zelda in the same fashion I troll with Wario. We jank people with neutrals that make little to no sense. Like walking away slowly from a shielding opponent. Or standing in place while the opponent whiffs 20 aerials over our heads.

Ok, he still hasn't played her or the game seriously and doesn't really have the knowledge to comment.

Do you want to be the one putting 'my ego' into check? You can cover that set I offered to stoic since he doesn't want to be the example. I can show you exactly why Zelda doesn't need buffs and needs redesigning all together in a heartbeat, unless you just want a video of my replays, where I am parrying teleports, blocking phantoms on ledge get up and parrying the up smash coverage at roll distance?

Alternatively, you could just stop playing bad Zeldas.

 

[~?~]

more nonsense
Alternatively, you could just stop playing bad Zeldas.

There is no sense in you replying at this point unless you are going to play the best of 5 set. Put up or shut up about it. Pretty straight forward. I'm not going to repeat myself about what is obviously observable because of your cognitive bias about your character.

Oh and for the record, you didn't force those jokers to do bad options off stage. I watched. They were already doing the bad options like jumping INTO the fire you tossed at midpoint off stage and forcing THEMSELVES to have to air dodge. It wasn't by your hand, it was by their lack of ability to escape disadvantage and recover effectively. No half decent player just burns double jumps off stage, in fact, that's a bad habit 101. Rule of thumb in high level play, don't double jump off stage unless you have to. End of story. Done replying to you unless you accept the set so I can physically display to you the common bad habits you share with almost every Zelda I play against.

PS. I stress again, Zelda is my most common matchup both online and offline (and megaman tho that's not relevant)

 

[StoicPhantom]

There is no sense in you replying at this point unless you are going to play the best of 5 set. Put up or shut up about it. Pretty straight forward. I'm not going to repeat myself about what is obviously observable because of your cognitive bias about your character.

Oh and for the record, you didn't force those jokers to do bad options off stage. I watched. They were already doing the bad options like jumping INTO the fire you tossed at midpoint off stage and forcing THEMSELVES to have to air dodge. It wasn't by your hand, it was by their lack of ability to escape disadvantage and recover effectively. No half decent player just burns double jumps off stage, in fact, that's a bad habit 101. Rule of thumb in high level play, don't double jump off stage unless you have to. End of story. Done replying to you unless you accept the set so I can physically display to you the common bad habits you share with almost every Zelda I play against.

Resorting to outright lying and trying to win the debate, through an entirely different metric, huh? I guess I can consider this your way of conceding.

To make things absolutely clear, there are two points that have been repeatedly ignored, that would have put things to rest, a long time ago. They can be sufficiently summed with these quotes:

Point to where you did this.

and

top Zelda players that I mentioned, placing high in super majors.

It seems to me, these have been deliberately been ignored, because they are objective proof. So yeah, until these are adequately answered, we're probably done here.

 

[~?~]

Resorting to outright lying and trying to win the debate, through an entirely different metric, huh? I guess I can consider this your way of conceding.

To make things absolutely clear, there are two points that have been repeatedly ignored, that would have put things to rest, a long time ago. They can be sufficiently summed with these quotes:

and

It seems to me, these have been deliberately been ignored, because they are objective proof. So yeah, until these are adequately answered, we're probably done here.

You've given me 0 reasons to change my mind. The inconsistent results with Zelda at events don't matter to me, why? They are inconsistent and becoming less and LESS frequent, and for the reasons I already mentioned.

I never conceded. I offered you a chance to physically prove me wrong yourself. You conceded by running away from that offer. Put up or shut up. You say "don't play bad Zeldas", well, if you're such a well versed Zelda, come prove me wrong. I don't think you will. You're afraid of me being correct that Zelda's neutral tool-kit forces her players to perform bad options and habits. You're afraid to get beat in a match up that's recognized as 6-4 in your favor by a guy with a broken thumb.

I'll say this once more, and once more only. If I'm wrong, prove it. Otherwise, your talk is empty. I'm willing to back my claims up, but it appears you're not. Pretty suspicious for a guy who thinks he's correct.

 

[Haden]

I'll say this once more, and once more only. If I'm wrong, prove it. Otherwise, your talk is empty. I'm willing to back my claims up, but it appears you're not. Pretty suspicious for a guy who thinks he's correct.

thats not fair hey man what about my zelda? i offered to take the L for him i dont mind getting stomped on a couple games for some matchup experience lol

 

[~?~]

thats not fair hey man what about my zelda? i offered to take the L for him i dont mind getting stomped on a couple games for some matchup experience lol

Just come around back to my place. Rather play offline than online tbh. Not sure why you're still playing Zelda lol you were complaining about her lack of neutral options and all of a sudden it's practically your new main. Did you ever perfect the dragdown nair into dair reset combo yet?

 

[Haden]

Just come around back to my place. Rather play offline than online tbh. Not sure why you're still playing Zelda lol you were complaining about her lack of neutral options and all of a sudden it's practically your new main. Did you ever perfect the dragdown nair into dair reset combo yet?

nah i found out the hard way that its really only something you want to do on heavies because for some reason thin characters escape that crap super fast. might just be miss timing the second rising nair but i just dont think its too useful outside of bowser/dk/ddd/krool matchup.

 

[StoicPhantom]

You've given me 0 reasons to change my mind. The inconsistent results with Zelda at events don't matter to me, why? They are inconsistent and becoming less and LESS frequent, and for the reasons I already mentioned.

How can they be inconsistent, when the two in question, don't travel often? Not that frequency was why I brought that up, in the first place. Your original claim was Zelda teaches bad habits and does all the work for the player. I provided those examples, because a super major, stacked with the best players in the world, is the ultimate fraud buster, no? If they are riddled with bad habits, due to Zelda, then they really shouldn't have gotten that far, right?

I never conceded. I offered you a chance to physically prove me wrong yourself. You conceded by running away from that offer. Put up or shut up. You say "don't play bad Zeldas", well, if you're such a well versed Zelda, come prove me wrong. I don't think you will. You're afraid of me being correct that Zelda's neutral tool-kit forces her players to perform bad options and habits. You're afraid to get beat in a match up that's recognized as 6-4 in your favor by a guy with a broken thumb.

I won't no, I'm not really one to go out of my way to do things I'm not interested and certainly not petty vanity fights. I didn't claim to be well versed or even a good player, I took issue with the claim that Zelda bypasses fundamentals and promotes bad habits. Something objectively untrue. If you are so keen on trying to prove all Zeldas are bad, by beating one, then you really should play the best. So again, go fight Ven or Mystearica.

I'm willing to back my claims up, but it appears you're not. Pretty suspicious for a guy who thinks he's correct.

You can't even point out, where you did this nor have you given anything sufficient or that hasn't already been addressed.

So to reiterate:

Point to where you did this.

and

the top Zelda players that I mentioned, placing high in super majors.

 

[Haden]

How can they be inconsistent, when the two in question, don't travel often? Not that frequency was why I brought that up, in the first place. Your original claim was Zelda teaches bad habits and does all the work for the player. I provided those examples, because a super major, stacked with the best players in the world, is the ultimate fraud buster, no? If they are riddled with bad habits, due to Zelda, then they really shouldn't have gotten that far, right?

you are also forgetting 2 factors in these scenarios. who they played in both pools and brack matter as well as the actual character match up itself. while zelda as a standalone character is a bad character and i agree that she teaches a lot of bad habits that ive personally noticed playing with and against her, she also is a very powerful counter pick to any zoner and sub zone because she is a zone breaker character with zoning tools.

I won't no, I'm not really one to go out of my way to do things I'm not interested and certainly not petty vanity fights. I didn't claim to be well versed or even a good player, I took issue with the claim that Zelda bypasses fundamentals and promotes bad habits. Something objectively untrue. If you are so keen on trying to prove all Zeldas are bad, by beating one, then you really should play the best. So again, go fight Ven or Mystearica.

that looks like a deflection to excuse your conceding
zelda does teach bad habits because she kinda forces you to do them as a character. its not the players fault its the characters fault. her toolkit sucks for fundamentals growth.
i also believe he said multiple times 'almost every zelda' with the word 'almost' being very important to note, which you seem to ignore because as he said you have a bias for your character.

let me say it this way. ive seen 7 zeldas in this mans arena stacked back to back no joke, multiple times. i watched him thrash them almost effortlessly because they were all doing the same predictabl;e jazz over and over again and he was exploiting the same predictable habits over and over again. this man is really good against your character and ive not only witnessed it on youtube but in person on a regular basis. people counter pick zelda and megaman on him so much that its a diet for him.

 

[~?~]

i also believe he said multiple times 'almost every zelda' with the word 'almost' being very important to note, which you seem to ignore because as he said you have a bias for your character.
.

THANK YOU! Someone ACTUALLY READ what I said.

I won't no, I'm not really one to go out of my way to do things I'm not interested and certainly not petty vanity fights. I didn't claim to be well versed or even a good player, I took issue with the claim that Zelda bypasses fundamentals and promotes bad habits. Something objectively untrue. If you are so keen on trying to prove all Zeldas are bad, by beating one, then you really should play the best. So again, go fight Ven or Mystearica.

Oh my. Didn't you say that Haden had no business talking about the character because they don't know enough about it, or are not well versed with the character? You should apply that same logic to yourself if you're going to say stuff like this as an excuse to avoid the challenge.

For the record; I never once said ALL Zeldas are bad players or that ALL Zeldas players exhibit each bad habit she exaggerates. I am speaking about the VAST majority of mid and high level Zeldas. This does not imply each and every single individual, just the broad spectrum. I am aware that there are Zeldas who do it better than other Zeldas, I've played against them. That's why I use the words 'almost every', but even those Zeldas were exhibiting those bad habits because the character forced them to in the situations that I can force a Zelda into being in. Zeldas neutral toolkit is butt sauce and encourages those bad habits. By encouraging, and players constantly doing them, that is them LEARNING bad habits. It's not exactly the players fault as he said earlier, it's Zelda's fault. I could make a 10 hour long compilation of forcing Zeldas into these situations. A zelda Tbagged my day 1 wario and beat it, he came back in my Arena and I was playing Link, a character match up in his favor. I CRAPPED on him, HARD, I literally t bagged him in the middle of combo extensions, t bagged him just before edge guarding him, ran up to hiim in shield and made him roll by t bagging in his face, it was a wreck my friend. His habits are trained by his character, and were the same habits I see, again, MOST Zeldas doing, both mid and high level.

 

[StoicPhantom]

you are also forgetting 2 factors in these scenarios. who they played in both pools and brack matter as well as the actual character match up itself. while zelda as a standalone character is a bad character and i agree that she teaches a lot of bad habits that ive personally noticed playing with and against her, she also is a very powerful counter pick to any zoner and sub zone because she is a zone breaker character with zoning tools.

I already listed the notable players, you can look the rest up yourself. As for characters, off the top of my head: were the ones Ven beat and: were the only ones I recall Mystearica beating, but there was definitely more, again you can look them up yourself.

that looks like a deflection to excuse your conceding to me
zelda does teach bad habits because she kinda forces you to do them as a character. its not the players fault its the characters fault. her toolkit sucks for fundamentals growth.
i also believe he said multiple times 'almost every zelda' with the word 'almost' being very important to note, which you seem to ignore because as he said you have a bias for your character.

And again, neither of you have explained WHY that is. Yeah I get that you think her kit promotes bad habits, you still haven't explained WHY you think that is. It's bad because it's bad, isn't useful. Almost every Zelda, is still an incredible sweeping generalization. Neither of you have seen almost every Zelda, that's what we call assumption.

let me say it this way. ive seen 7 zeldas in this mans arena stacked back to back no joke, multiple times. i watched him thrash them almost effortlessly because they were all doing the same predictabl;e jazz over and over again and he was exploiting the same predictable habits over and over again. this man is really good against your character and ive not only witnessed it on youtube but in person on a regular basis. people counter pick zelda and megaman on him so much that its a diet for him.

Beating random Zeldas online, is what we call personal anecdotes, which have no place in objective discussion or discussing something in its entirety. Do you have any idea how many characters I've trashed on a daily basis, that did the exact same things? Including both of your mains, which are some of the worst offenders in regards to flow charts. Almost like that is what the majority of online players do, period. Am I going to go to your respective mains boards and make sweeping generalizations, about your skill and character? And pretend Izaw or Mkleo don't exist. No I'm not, because I'm not that far up my own ass.

Oh my. Didn't you say that Haden had no business talking about the character because they don't know enough about it, or are not well versed with the character? You should apply that same logic to yourself if you're going to say stuff like this as an excuse to avoid the challenge.

Well no, because I consider myself a competitive player, good or not, and I don't go to tournaments to troll people seriously trying to play. That's something a child would do or someone with the mentality of one.

am speaking about the VAST majority of mid and high level Zeldas.

Yeah, and on what basis do you have of this. I highly doubt you routinely play or watch high level Zeldas and no arenas or online, aren't indicative. I would personally take the higher levels of Elite over all of the bad players I see in arenas.

Zeldas neutral toolkit is butt sauce and encourages those bad habits. By encouraging, and players constantly doing them, that is them LEARNING bad habits.

And again, you have failed to explain why this is the case. What specifically promotes bad habits? Which thing in particular that's exclusive to Zelda, bypasses fundamentals? You haven't provided details, you just keep saying it promotes bad habits, because they are inherently bad. That's not helpful.

I could make a 10 hour long compilation of forcing Zeldas into these situations. A zelda Tbagged my day 1 wario and beat it, he came back in my Arena and I was playing Link, a character match up in his favor. I CRAPPED on him, HARD, I literally t bagged him in the middle of combo extensions, t bagged him just before edge guarding him, ran up to hiim in shield and made him roll by t bagging in his face, it was a wreck my friend. His habits are trained by his character, and were the same habits I see, again, MOST Zeldas doing, both mid and high level.

This highly masturbatory post, has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Again, personal anecdotes have no place here, and all this is really telling me, is that online success, is inflating the egos of both you and that Zelda player.

 

[Haden]

And again, you have failed to explain why this is the case. What specifically promotes bad habits? Which thing in particular that's exclusive to Zelda, bypasses fundamentals? You haven't provided details, you just keep saying it promotes bad habits, because they are inherently bad. That's not helpful.


.

he did explain when he brought up chrom players, ganon players, lucina players, link players, etc. its on page one. you just ignored it in your salty cognitive bias.

This highly masturbatory post, has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Again, personal anecdotes have no place here, and all this is really telling me, is that online success, is inflating the egos of both you and that Zelda player

i mean were talking about a player who does sub battles with top players on their twitch streams and takes games. id have an ego to flex too if i was that guy.

you also mentioned elite smash, where the worst players are. he has a near 4.7 mil GSP with multiple characters so im not sure why you'd bring that up anyway. the best players ive ever played against were always in private arenas or in sub battles. im pretty sure that goes for him as well considering im usually playing with him. elite smash and gsp is the LAST thing to use to gage a players skill level, as most people in elite smash only rematch people they know they'll beat to stack their gsps higher than it should be or they lag more than a line at the DMV

side note: elite smash has FD and BF, 2 stages, thus trash.

come to think about it, the worst zeldas ive ever played are from elite smash and the best are from arenas.

i dont want to play with this man offline because he bomb loops me with link and i hate it. i much rather nurf his autism on wifi.

so why wont you play a set with him? i mean you even have 2 advantages in the forms of match up and he has a broken thumb. this is a golden apple to bite into if you want to prove him wrong.

 

[~?~]

i dont want to play with this man offline because he bomb loops me with link and i hate it. i much rather nurf his autism on wifi.

Did you just call me autistic? lol you A$$

For real tho Stoic, if you want to continue this, continue it in a PM. I think this thread has been stacked more than enough with our back and forths and it should be left to the lost mains who should just pick a new character. I'll be waiting for you to back up your talk any time you want in a best to 5 set. Don't bother @ me because I'm not going to reply at this point unless you bring it up in DMs. Till then, I have OFFLINE zeldas to slaughter today, peace.

 

[BJN39]

Okay, after bringing up the f-air and b-air on my last post, here are my inputs on how to improve their hitboxes.

Hitbox | Base Damage | Knockback Angle | BKB | KBG | Shield Damage
Sweetspot | 20 | Sakurai Angle| 60 | 80 | 10
Sourspots | 5 | Sakurai Angle | 20 | 90 | 0

The f-air and b-air would be treated equally with their animation length and hitbox attributes. The sweetspot gains a shield damage bonus, and stronger BKB, but as a drawback, its KBG is reduced. Of course, despite the KBG nerf, the sweetspot can KO slightly earlier than before, thanks to the increased knockback dealt (courtesy of the BKB buff) at lower damage percentages.

As for the sourspots, they do receive stronger base damage and BKB (at the cost of lower KBG). Starts to KO middleweights when their current damage goes over 350% (assuming that they're positioned at the center of an Omega form stage).

Quick question, were these KB numbers calc'ed? 60/80 with 20% seems like it might accidentally be broken for KOing. I would guess of the top of my head it needs a little less KBG to compensate that BKB. ^^


Also ladies, reminder this thread was meant to talk about ways for Zelda to be changed. Someone can think that she should or shouldn't be altered but like, y'all are way off topic and getting heated. Stating a [potentially unpopular] opinion in an overtly provocative way is only opening yourself up to getting dragged on the internet though, so don't get stuck up at inevitable pushback, k?



Personal opinion, every character promotes bad behaviors in some way and i don't think Zelda is some 'special case.' Her situation is really different than it used to be, and it seems we're still still figuring out if this means she's good or bad. I've come to terms with the fact that she at least isn't terrible despite a slew of poor attributes remaining unchanged from SSB4 or being WORSE, as the game's mechanics and Phantom seem to be helping her alleviate some of those problems. That said I'd like to see some things that are practically design bugs be fixed, like NAir's really bad aerial target hitboxes, or Usmash's poorly matched animation-to-hitboxes, or aforementioned LK autocancel timing. Yes, these end up buffing Zelda but only just enough to make moves do what they should be doing.

 

[StoicPhantom]

he did explain when he brought up chrom players, ganon players, lucina players, link players, etc. its on page one. you just ignored it in your salty cognitive bias.

How can I have ignored something I quoted and went into detail about why it was bull****? All that post did was go on about how these characters teach fundamentals and give flimsy reasons as to why, and then go back to saying Zelda doesn't, because she can press B to win. There wasn't any real detail or solid reasoning, so I just went going into detail, why that isn't true and how those things could be exploited and what the Zelda player would need to do, to successfully land those things. In other words, point out why those moves need player input. Something he has failed to adequately do to prove the opposite.

I would like details, not Chrom has a bad recovery, Zelda does not, so Chrom teaches good fundamentals and Zelda doesn't. I don't remember Farore's Wind saving me from getting two framed by a G&W's Bair or Ven from Ike's Neutral B, early on in the meta. I don't remember Nayru's Love stopping a Fox Nair or Ike dash attack. I sure as hell don't remember Phantom letting me ledge trap for free, without taking in consideration things like ledge invincibility, character jump, reflectors, and recoveries with hitboxs. None of what he said was even remotely true, to the point that if he honestly put that much time in Zelda, which I'm starting to doubt, then sinking all that time into a character, only to still not understand the first thing about them, is the most impressive thing he's done.

mean were talking about a player who does sub battles with top players on their twitch streams and takes games. id have an ego to flex too if i was that guy.

Random scrubs online, have been taking games off of top players, since online Smash became a thing. Call me when he can do the same in an actual tournament.

you also mentioned elite smash, where the worst players are. he has a near 4.7 mil GSP with multiple characters so im not sure why you'd bring that up anyway. the best players ive ever played against were always in private arenas or in sub battles. im pretty sure that goes for him as well considering im usually playing with him. elite smash and gsp is the LAST thing to use to gage a players skill level, as most people in elite smash only rematch people they know they'll beat to stack their gsps higher than it should be or they lag more than a line at the DMV

I brought it up, because even as absolute trash as it is, it still features better players on average, than arenas. Arenas aren't really that great, even if I like the king of the hill aspect, and after getting lobby after lobby closed on me, because I trashed everyone in them, I just kind of gave up. Online isn't really a good indicator of anything.

so why wont you play a set with him? i mean you even have 2 advantages in the forms of match up and he has a broken thumb. this is a golden apple to bite into if you want to prove him wrong.

There really isn't anything in it for me nor is it interesting. You may idolize him, but he's just some random dude I didn't even know or remember existed, until he randomly barged in the topic, spouting the most lol opinions I've heard on this subject. I've entertained him all this time, because he is the only person I've ever heard have these opinions and I wanted to see how you could even come to this conclusion, that would have you laughed out of any serious topic, but it has become pretty clear, he doesn't have a well put together idea. I only go out of my way to play with people I know and I'm not changing that for someone this far up their own ass.

For real tho Stoic, if you want to continue this, continue it in a PM. I think this thread has been stacked more than enough with our back and forths and it should be left to the lost mains who should just pick a new character. I'll be waiting for you to back up your talk any time you want in a best to 5 set. Don't bother @ me because I'm not going to reply at this point unless you bring it up in DMs. Till then, I have OFFLINE zeldas to slaughter today, peace.

Have fun.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Quick question, were these KB numbers calc'ed? 60/80 with 20% seems like it might accidentally be broken for KOing. I would guess of the top of my head it needs a little less KBG to compensate that BKB. ^^

I did do a good amount of calculations to make sure that the BKB and KBG balance was made just right. From the information that I've gathered, if you increase the BKB by 2 units, the KBG would have to be decreased by 1 unit (that would subtract 2 KB units from the knockback balancing threshold) if you want to keep the knockback balance the same.

Now, in Smash 3DS / Wii U, Zelda's b-air sweetspot dealt 20% damage, has 28 BKB, and 96 KBG. That would KO Mario at 81% damage if he's on an Omega form stage's center, but he won't tumble at 0% damage. If the BKB is increased to 60, while the KBG is decreased to 80, the b-air sweetspot would KO Mario at 78% damage (3 damage units sooner than 28 BKB + 96 KBG), and he would tumble at 0% damage.

It is worth noting however, that 28 BKB + 96 KBG ((96 * 2) + 28 = 220) would start dealing more knockback than 60 BKB + 80 KBG ((80 * 2) + 60 = 220), once the total knockback dealt goes above 220 units (under normal circumstances anyway). In other words, below 220 units would favor higher BKB, while above 220 units would favor higher KBG.

 

[Lil Puddin]

One or more of these buffs pls:

• Give her Sm4sh Nair hitboxes. -3f to the landing lag so it can follow up into Utilt/Jab easier. Lower the KB angle by 15 degrees.
• While minimal, make Bair match the same landing lag/etc as Fair.
• Make Usmash/Fsmash/Naryu's Love multi-hitboxes slightly bigger, just a smidge below the final hitbox's size (it'd help fix USmash's size problem). Usmash might need additional hitbox size for the sides of her tho... It's currently so small that Giant-tized enemies can't get hit by it thanks to the new push-mechanic lmao.
• Increase Dtilt's hitbox size to hit downward, so it can hit people hanging on the ledge without invincibility.
• -2f from the start of Ftilt, increase KBG by 5, lower KB angle by 10 degrees.
• Allow her to fall through platforms ONCE while charging Phantom Knight or Din's Fire. The Phantom Knight does not follow her through the platform, though.
• -1f to all her grabs' startups at the very least (same for poor Greninja tbh since they share the same grab). Basically put her on par with M2.
• Increase Uthrow's KBG by 5.
• Lower Bthrow's KBG by 5 and lower the angle by KB 10 degrees. Increase
• Fthrow's KBG by 5 and lower the KB angle by 10 degrees.
• -1f to jab's startup since it doesn't have a safe endlag anyway.
• Increase run to 1.475 and walk to 0.9175, which doesn't change her position but still helps her out a little ofc.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Ok, I didn't want to make a post about the discussion, but it's not Zelda that is teaching you bad habits but it's more the Online mode and neutral b is super-super safe there. So you end up spamming that.
Other spammable moves online are: Arrows of any Link, Ike's nair, Snake's grenades, Wolf's blaster, Ness's PK-fire, Yoshi's egg toss, every command grab, Lucina's aerials, Sonic's whatever-his-attacks-do....
That's a lot of character that have attributes that work perfect online. But does Wolf teeach you a bad habit because you can spam his blaster? No, of course not. And that's the same for Zelda.
As a Zelda player, you probably have to use the space you have to its full extent, meaning you need to have a very good grasp at 1. where your opponent is going and 2. when to use that free space. Those are two very important thing to learn if you want to be good. She basically teaches you how to space things from a distance and how to defend space to work in. So, basically your typical zoner but with a less aggressive playstyle like for example the Belmonts. That's probably also why she's rather hard to pick up because you can't just throw out phantoms and Nayrus willy-nilly.

So I don't agree that she teaches bad habits. Otherwise you have to say that Link, Wolf or Lucina do the same thing because these characters are busted online. Anyway, that's from and I hope this topic can go back to where it started but I already mentioned what I'd buff.

 

[Sean²]

Maybe a little subjective, but I've always strongly disliked how they handled Zelda in Smash. They missed a big opportunity to finally rescue this character from her bottom tier badness design (though she's much better now, just still boasts most of the same moves) by way of BOTW designs, but I'm assuming this may have been due to Ultimate's development being well underway while BOTW's wasn't fully off the ground yet. They say it's because "BOTW Zelda isn't the fighting type" but I'm feeling that's a bit of a cop out.

Rework the character so she can fight better at close range and doesn't have an near-universal requirement of campiness. The zoner/trapper archetype is pulled off best when you can handle your own in both areas, but not to a point of being godlike in both. They did a good job at that in theory with the onstage presence of Link and the Belmonts. I feel like Zelda is just too reliant on the runaway game due to her slow speed and laggy normals. I would like to see her be able to do a bit more. She's more like fighting a Megaman boss than a Smash character half the time.

And I kind of have to agree that she does attract bad players at a higher rate than some of the other common "Wifi" characters like Wolf, Link, Ganondorf, and even Ness at this point. Newbies run into oppressive close range fighters like Little Mac and Chrom online and can't beat them with normal tactics, so their best counter to that is to load the screen with hitboxes for them to bullet hell around for 7-8 minutes. Basically any character without a good reflector or counter to her projectiles can struggle against her at lower levels. It doesn't work quite as well against higher level players, but it's still obnoxious to keep dodging stuff that takes up half the stage.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Maybe a little subjective, but I've always strongly disliked how they handled Zelda in Smash. They missed a big opportunity to finally rescue this character from her bottom tier badness design (though she's much better now, just still boasts most of the same moves) by way of BOTW designs, but I'm assuming this may have been due to Ultimate's development being well underway while BOTW's wasn't fully off the ground yet. They say it's because "BOTW Zelda isn't the fighting type" but I'm feeling that's a bit of a cop out.

Rework the character so she can fight better at close range and doesn't have an near-universal requirement of campiness. The zoner/trapper archetype is pulled off best when you can handle your own in both areas, but not to a point of being godlike in both. They did a good job at that in theory with the onstage presence of Link and the Belmonts. I feel like Zelda is just too reliant on the runaway game due to her slow speed and laggy normals. I would like to see her be able to do a bit more. She's more like fighting a Megaman boss than a Smash character half the time.

And I kind of have to agree that she does attract bad players at a higher rate than some of the other common "Wifi" characters like Wolf, Link, Ganondorf, and even Ness at this point. Newbies run into oppressive close range fighters like Little Mac and Chrom online and can't beat them with normal tactics, so their best counter to that is to load the screen with hitboxes for them to bullet hell around for 7-8 minutes. Basically any character without a good reflector or counter to her projectiles can struggle against her at lower levels. It doesn't work quite as well against higher level players, but it's still obnoxious to keep dodging stuff that takes up half the stage.

Mac is one of her worst MUs, though. He can simply run into you and it just works for him (on Final Destination). No amount of phantom or Nayru can help you there, at least on BF. Chrom is a little bit better in that regard because he doesn't have superarmor on his moves, except the start-up on upB, i.e. a move you don't throw out normally when being on-stage. If you want to load the screen with hitboxes, then any of the Links or Samus is your go-to character, but definitely not Zelda (she's way too slow to do that effectively).
I think that statement "character XY" attracts bad player is way too superficial. You could say that about every character if you really, really dislike how they play and are therefore somewhat salty. I also say to myself that this Belmont mostly had luck with their projectile spam but in the end, you should overcome this if the player is "bad". I tend to agree that Nayru is very safe online, though.

Just my three cents on that matter. I can agree with the rest of your post but be aware that she's meant to play defensively. Nayru is a very good "get-off-me"-tool and it can reset neutral. Upb OoS doles also help if the opponent is too aggressive. But at lower percent you shouldn't try to punish but teleport instead to the left or right, depending on stage position. She can also teleport ledge-cancel but that's something I don't see the player maining her do that. But it'd give her much more mobility when they can pull it off consistently Then the opponent is in the air and Zelda can set up Din or a phantom, maybe even both.

 

[Sean²]

Bad players may have been the wrong terminology to use. Newbies would be a better term. Lots of newbies run through all the characters and pick up Zelda because she can camp and throw out huge hitboxes get damage, over other characters who may have to play with more precision. Crazy enough, two of my friends who have always played Smash recently got Ultimate, and each decided they either wanted to main Zelda, or use her in some way. Chances are if I'm teaching someone to play, they're gonna get more hits on me with a zoner than other characters can. Because I'm probably gonna get hit by a phantom or a dash back fsmash at least once in a match, where maybe a character with less multihits or projectiles wouldn't be able to get in on me as well. I just don't think she's a good character to learn the game with, since she creates habits with her projectiles that don't quite translate very well to other characters. She isn't the only one like this, there are quite a few others, she's just the most notable one IMO.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Bad players may have been the wrong terminology to use. Newbies would be a better term. Lots of newbies run through all the characters and pick up Zelda because she can camp and throw out huge hitboxes get damage, over other characters who may have to play with more precision. Crazy enough, two of my friends who have always played Smash recently got Ultimate, and each decided they either wanted to main Zelda, or use her in some way. Chances are if I'm teaching someone to play, they're gonna get more hits on me with a zoner than other characters can. Because I'm probably gonna get hit by a phantom or a dash back fsmash at least once in a match, where maybe a character with less multihits or projectiles wouldn't be able to get in on me as well. I just don't think she's a good character to learn the game with, since she creates habits with her projectiles that don't quite translate very well to other characters. She isn't the only one like this, there are quite a few others, she's just the most notable one IMO.

Yeah, that is something I can understand much better because I also started like this in Sm4sh (I had Brawl but didn't really play it and Sm4sh only for a few months). So I can understsnd well what you are saying here and I actually fully agree with this.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Bad players may have been the wrong terminology to use. Newbies would be a better term. Lots of newbies run through all the characters and pick up Zelda because she can camp and throw out huge hitboxes get damage, over other characters who may have to play with more precision. Crazy enough, two of my friends who have always played Smash recently got Ultimate, and each decided they either wanted to main Zelda, or use her in some way. Chances are if I'm teaching someone to play, they're gonna get more hits on me with a zoner than other characters can. Because I'm probably gonna get hit by a phantom or a dash back fsmash at least once in a match, where maybe a character with less multihits or projectiles wouldn't be able to get in on me as well. I just don't think she's a good character to learn the game with, since she creates habits with her projectiles that don't quite translate very well to other characters. She isn't the only one like this, there are quite a few others, she's just the most notable one IMO.

I feel like the word you're looking for isn't "habits", but "overspecialization." Habits are things like repeatedly choosing the same option for the same situation or doing options too late or early. Those are universal to all characters and an issue with the player, not something that can be caused by the character, except in rare cases(needing to use Up-Smash, instead of Up-Tilt as a juggle/anti-air).

Overspecialization will happen with the majority of the cast, though. Even so called fundamental based or "all-around" characters, will still have certain aspects be a little shallow. Variances in character styles, naturally create gaps in style knowledge, so if you want to be a well rounded player, you need to play with multiple characters. Lots of aspects of Zelda will transfer to other characters, there just might be some things the Zelda player takes for granted, like recovery or zone breaking, that other characters may struggle with. As a day one Zelda main, I can still hold my own with other characters, even if I hadn't played them before.

I think Zelda is a perfectly fine character to learn the game with, if that's what someone wants to do, just that it will be similar to Smash 4 Sheik, in that it will be a much more difficult path at the start, than if you first played an "easy" character, then jumped to the more advanced ones. It's not like she is Snake, who has such a radically different play style, that your ability with other characters could suffer without sufficient practice with them, at least according to my friend who mains him.

And I kind of have to agree that she does attract bad players at a higher rate than some of the other common "Wifi" characters like Wolf, Link, Ganondorf, and even Ness at this point. Newbies run into oppressive close range fighters like Little Mac and Chrom online and can't beat them with normal tactics, so their best counter to that is to load the screen with hitboxes for them to bullet hell around for 7-8 minutes. Basically any character without a good reflector or counter to her projectiles can struggle against her at lower levels. It doesn't work quite as well against higher level players, but it's still obnoxious to keep dodging stuff that takes up half the stage.

I know you already answered for this, but I'd like to offer a bit of a different take. I think the reason why she seems to attract "bad" players, isn't some sort of "easy button" character desire or people thinking about MUs competitively like you mention in this quote, but more an aesthetic appeal. There was a lot of hype around her aesthetic redesign, not really her Phantom redesign, at the beginning. Basically, people were in it for the "waifu factor" and that kind of died after they found out she was difficult to use. That's not really a "bad" or "incorrect" reason to want to play a character, but I think these people tend to lean more on the casual side of things and use more casual player tactics, like spamming specials and the like.

So my guess as to why she attracts more "bad" players, than Link, Wolf, or Ganondorf, is because she's a bigger casual magnet than them. You won't see them at tournaments, but they will be littered all over WiFi, which I'm guessing is where you're basing this off of.

 

[Codebox]

-Faster Grab
-Act out of Dins sooner
-More invincibility on Nayru's
-Increase AC window on LKs
-All Aerial lag decrease
-Phantom Blind Spot fix
-U-Smash loop fix
-Mobility increase
-Fix Nair
-Smash 4 D-Tilt

That's about it. I'd be satisfied if any of these areas got touched.

 

[Lacrimosa]

-Faster Grab
-Act out of Dins sooner
-More invincibility on Nayru's
-Increase AC window on LKs
-All Aerial lag decrease
-Phantom Blind Spot fix
-U-Smash loop fix
-Mobility increase
-Fix Nair
-Smash 4 D-Tilt

That's about it. I'd be satisfied if any of these areas got touched.

Bruh, you serious?
Although I'd be happy if we get an invincibilty shift.
Right now it's f4-15 to my knowledge.
I'd favor f3-14 and one frame less endlag because then you could put parry< to good use with that move.

 

[stingywizard]

Here's what I would change:

- make grab faster and reduce endlag; this would make it easier for Zelda to punish people staying too close to her with poor spacing.
- increase knockback on sourspot lightning kicks; these do a tiny amount of damage, and with the massive endlag even if you connect, if you don't get the sweet spot you get punished hard. This change would be to make it so that if she does connect you don't get a free punish, but still leaves the endlag so if you block and her spacing isn't great you can punish.
- allow shield, roll, air-dodge cancelling a phantom charge; all other large projectiles that charge can be cancelled. This would allow you to try to use phantom in more situations where you are not in advantage.
- reduce minimum travel distance for Din's fire; this move can really only be used in advantage because it is slow, and travels too far away from her to be used in most situations. It would do reduced damage the closer it is, but could explode much closer to her. Again, the idea is to enable it's use outside of the advantage state.
- make dtilt more akin to Peach/Daisy's; slightly longer range, and knock people more straight up - this would give Zelda a good chance to get smaller characters with a lightning kick if she catches them with a dtilt.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I'd pretty much just buff her grab. Standing and Dash Grab, to be extact. Give it a mix of more range and speed, but I'm really in favour of more speed. There's just many times a guy is sitting and shield and it's hardly ever "just grab bro" like other characters.

That's basically it. I think we're really good as we are, and people really need to work with it better (or switch their playstyle altogether).

 

[Lacrimosa]

Just looked up her framedata on Kuroganehammer.
Grabs Hitbox Active FAF
Standing Grab 10-11 40
Dash Grab 13-14 48
Pivot Grab 14-15 43

Bruh, wtf is this. There's no reason her grabs have this much cooldown after being extremely slow in start-up, too.
No other character I just looked up has such awful framedata on all three grabs. I heard Greninja shares the same grabs, though.
Don't really get why. The only real follow-ups she has are dThrow -> fAir/nAir/bAir at lower percents, depending on DI.
I think the FAF is fine, other charas aren't that much different there, but the active hitbox frames are...horrible.I wish she can get a faster grab by maybe two-three frames

 

[Rickster]

In Smash 4 I also complained about her grab but I can...tolerate it this time around now that almost every grab got big FAF nerfs (ours did too but not as bad because it already sucked lmao)

The range was also buffed, and it becomes pretty crazy when you do the smash attack cancelled pivot grab. We also have a reliable combo throw (that can kill confirm...), two kill throws, and in general highly damaging throws. So I can see now why it's as slow as it is tbh

But yeah if they gave us faster startup anyway I would definitely not complain. Frame 14 shieldgrab sucks right now

 

[Codebox]

Even if the slow speed is meant as compensation for what we get off of it Zelda would be more threatening on shield with faster grab frame data. It would also give Zelda an extra neutral tool as well. Us having a 3-4 frame faster grab would allow us to easily net B-throw/U-Throw KOs and D-throw follow ups. The most solid thing I can say about her grab is pivot grab is pretty good at catching people.

 

[daddypeach]

I was not expecting such a heated debate in this thread.

I would love for Zelda to have better spacing ability in neutral. Longer range on f & d tilts and faster walk speed would be top on my list. I think her neutral would be more interesting if level 1 phantom were less laggy, such that it was safe on shield. She's already pretty vulnerable because of its start-up, but I don't see the harm if this move were safer on shield.

I think the Zelda/Sheik concept was right in Brawl. Zelda did better in certain matchups than Sheik, but for the most part Sheik was the superior character but lacked kill moves if you couldn't gimp or set-up an ftilt to usmash at the right ratio of staled ftilt and % for an usmash KO. To be able to land a kill-move with Zelda, you still needed to be able to play as her. And she was useful in many of the matchups Sheik was bad at. However, there was a huge gap in matchup discussion and technology between the Sheik & Zelda boards.

Phantom is a pretty fair move (not as good as a Sheik, though). At the ledge, Zelda has to commit to it a second ahead of time and most people can vary the timing of their recovery so that it doesn't always force them to get up at a predictable time. Phantom usually complicates the situation in Zelda's favor but doesn't create a ceiling in Zelda's development as a player (??) she still needs to solve how to deal with her opponent's workarounds. It's a good option, especially if Zelda doesn't have enough advantage to chase off-stage.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

In Smash 4 I also complained about her grab but I can...tolerate it this time around now that almost every grab got big FAF nerfs (ours did too but not as bad because it already sucked lmao)

The range was also buffed, and it becomes pretty crazy when you do the smash attack cancelled pivot grab. We also have a reliable combo throw (that can kill confirm...), two kill throws, and in general highly damaging throws. So I can see now why it's as slow as it is tbh

But yeah if they gave us faster startup anyway I would definitely not complain. Frame 14 shieldgrab sucks right now

It's pretty bad unless you're always expecting them to land on your shield. Standing Grab is Frame 10. It's frame data isn't horrid, but the lack of range doesn't make up for it. Dash Grab is absolutely dreadful, and I pretty much only ever using it by accident. You're going to realistically """"""""want""""""" to be using it more than the former, considering smart people just sit in their shield or avoid Phantom altogether. 80% of the time I just use Pivot Grab, and it's not like I can rely on Frame 14 move (+running over and turning around, etc.) and expect my opponent to just sit there.

I've been playing Corrin last week and before, and you won't believe how relieving it felt to have a real grab. Their range is lackluster, but at least a Frame 8 grab is miles better. Not to mention how well they play with it with their aerials and fast falls.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Since her dTilt is also a weakpoint to most people:

Dtilit can lead into uptilit if you connect with the middle hitbox, also fsmash is a great way to catch your opponent’s landing aerials if they try to aggressively escape strings#SSBU_Zelda pic.twitter.com/2OVrtr1ICw

— JP53 (@_JP53) June 21, 2019

Looks interesting. Kinda interesting how reliable this hitbox is, though.

 

[stixie]

Since it seems you are pretty content in wallowing in your ignorance, I don't really feel like explaining too much, why that is ignorant. You are wrong on such a fundamental level, both about Zelda and fighting games, we would literally have to start from square one and there are plenty of resources you could learn from, this board being one of them. However, since I'm generous, I'll give you a "small" snippet:

Nayru's Love

Can be baited and the copious endlag punished severely. Large disjoints can go through it and hit Zelda safely. Characters with Fox's Nair, can drop straight through the corners on the top and hit Zelda. The intangibility is only at the start, so you need precise timing in order to make effective use of this move.

Farore's WInd

Has a not insignificant startup and a large amount of endlag, making precise timing and reads mandatory or you'll be eating a hard punish. It only has specific distance, so proper spacing is required to hit opponents at various parts of the stage. Not safe on shield, not safe on whiff, not safe using when some characters are on the other side of the stage. The ladder can be DI'd, so requires an angle adjustment and DI read. Also, the obvious startup, means it's easy to time a two frame, which can easily be done, with a sufficiently wide or long lasting hitbox, requiring Zelda to mixup her recovery.

Phantom Knight

If either Phantom or Zelda is hit before the hitbox comes out, it will immediately fall apart. This means projectiles and any attack can easily interrupt requiring Zelda to be smart about how she charges. There is also a fair amount of startup and endlag, so requires proper spacing to safely use. When the hitbox comes out, you have the option to do anything from jumping to parrying, so it requires conditioning and a read, done through observing the opponents habits. It is a projectile, so can be reflected. Ledge trapping still leaves a 50-50 between any of the getup options and one other and some characters can avoid that situation altogether.

Din's Fire

Has a fairly long and obvious path and it requires the full length, in order to do any major knockback. This means forcing the opponent to burn through their resources and reading their path. It also will not cover every angle, so you need to be in specific positions. And of course, like most of Zelda's moves, it has a sweet-spot, so you need to be precise.

And since you seem to be so hung up on going out to edgeguard, here's a video compilation done by yours truly, on a character that can't be hit by Din's Fire or Phantom for free:

Spoiler

As you can see, it's a little more complicated than you're making it out to be. I would suggest closing your mouth and actually taking the time to read the board we are posting on. There is literally all this information that would correct your misconceptions, you don't even have to google.

Battlefield

I know this is an OLD thread but HOLY SMOKES your edge guarding is saucy!! I love it! And I COMPLETELY agree with everything you said here. Zelda requires JUST as much skill as any other character. In fact I'd say she requires MORE than a lot of top tiers. Her lag makes everything she does VERY punishable. 5.6M GSP and over 7K games played with her so truuuuuust me I know LOL. It's taken SO MUCH WORK to get good with her.

And honestly I think that other guy was just salty he kept getting teleported into while charging arrow as link or something... get good.

 

[Codebox]

As much as I love Zelda in this game compared to previously she does need some buffs. Honestly I feel just any buff to frame data would suffice. because unlike previously I feel other characters are just better, as oppose to Zelda feeling worse than them. As for any one's I would feel would solidify her as of now

Less landing lag on aerials (at least make them end 4 frames earlier)
F-Tilt decreased end lag
Connecting Nair
Grab 5 frames less lag
Fair/bair increased hitbox size
D-tilt angle adjustment (Smash 4 D-tilt angle preferably)
Act sooner out of Dins
Horizontal hitbox on U-Smash

Might seem like much and I'm not saying they should all be at once, but any of these would be nice.

 

[stixie]

As much as I love Zelda in this game compared to previously she does need some buffs. Honestly I feel just any buff to frame data would suffice. because unlike previously I feel other characters are just better, as oppose to Zelda feeling worse than them. As for any one's I would feel would solidify her as of now

Less landing lag on aerials (at least make them end 4 frames earlier)
F-Tilt decreased end lag
Connecting Nair
Grab 5 frames less lag
Fair/bair increased hitbox size
D-tilt angle adjustment (Smash 4 D-tilt angle preferably)
Act sooner out of Dins
Horizontal hitbox on U-Smash

Might seem like much and I'm not saying they should all be at once, but any of these would be nice.

So I've put a LOT of thought into Zelda buffs and so here are mine and why.

Oh... one real quick thing, I do NOT think her fair/bair needs buffed (frame data or otherwise). The reason is because if you're jumping and throwing these out randomly you're using them wrong. These are PUNISH moves, NOT hitboxes to throw out and connect. They just aren't made that way. Fair/bair in neutral are NOT how these are used. Although I WILL concede one thing. Sometimes at low percents I punish an unsafe on shield option with bair and then get hit EVEN AFTER A SWEET SPOT because there wasn't enough knockback and the landing lag kept me from doing anything.

My buffs for Zelda:

Grabs/Throws
Zelda's grabs (all of them) come out on like frame a frillion which is complete garbage. I honestly think she has the worst grabs in the ENTIRE GAME. Her grab speed needs cut in half or maybe even more than half, and I'm talking ALL her grabs. Her grabs are the way she gets kills and a lot of damage... WHY are they the worst in the game?? Super handicap if you ask me. Her down throw needs to be a TRUE combo (at least into nair) below 50% PERIOD... not a 1/3 guess as to which why the opponent is going to DI.

Phantom
This should be the MAIN neutral tool for Zelda (not fair/bair). Phantom needs something adjusted about it.... Either more damage and knockback or make it cancelable like (literally) every single other charging projectile in the game.

Down Tilt
This move is her worst move by FAR for no reason whatsoever. With True combos like Terry has that do 25+ damage from pressing 3 buttons WHY did they remove the utility from this move? Literally makes ZERO sense. This move's range needs a buff and the knockback angle adjusted to be more like Peach/Daisy.

I think these adjustments would make her a much more viable character. I totally get the hate of her online N-B spammers but those are noobs and if you are patient can easily be beaten.

 

[daddypeach]

I really think that nair and maybe also dair need to be safer on block. Her aerial approaches are so predictable and unsafe. Dair is safe-ish on cross-up but she literally has no pressure. She has to dodge or block an oos option and it's predictable as hell. If you've ever watched a Zelda try to dair you it is so telegraphed it's not even funny.

I really think landing frames of Nair need to be adjusted to give her more frame advantage so she has a real option for landing aggressively and at least get in a jab mix-up on someone's shield.

I completely agree with the above. Terry's pokes are so safe!! Wtf. Can I have a safe poke that leads into a combo too???