Does Zelda Need Any Buffs And If So What?

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#1
i ask because even on the discord they don't really seem keen on talking about zelda the character(despite it being the zelda discord)and yet nobody has any ideas for changes that should be made
 

BJN39

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#2
SH LK

The end


But no really, it would strongly increase the fluidity of her low aerial game and just ive her more options in general by making her lightning kick autocancel slightly earlier. Even with the tiny sweetspot, this would make the move quite a bit more functional in Ulti. Definitely not asking too much. Also, I just hate how she's clearly at the end of the animation and then 'reverts' back to mid kick when she lands in the laggy window because the autocancel timing doesn't visually match the animation that well. It was atrocious in SSB4 and slightly less but still present now.

NAir is also extremely broken (the bad way) and needed hitbox fixes two patches ago. For Zelda regulars, I shouldn't have to even explain this one, lol.
 

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#4
Higher Priority/More Impactful Changes

- SH Kicks would be a godsend. Currently, if you try to Fair/Bair OoS and miss, she's stuck in not only the aerial lag, but the landing lag afterward. If you're playing against someone who knows Zelda you'll get punished for this every single time. I'd like them to buff the AC window and maaaaaybe the FAF by like just a few frames. I understand that they're supposed to be a high risk-high reward type move, but the risk is still too far skewed against faster characters that can just dash attack her on reaction to a whiff (like Fox for example)

- Fix Nair, that is all. When people figure out how to get out of it and punish, she's done for

- Also, the move should have less landing lag. I get that they wanted to remove her drag down combos from 4 since her archetype shifted, but the hitstun reduction (more like removal lol) from the multihits was enough imo. The landing lag is still relatively high, especially for a move of its type

- While we're on the topic of aerials, they *all* should have their FAFs or AC Windows (or both) improved. Her values are some of the worst in the game, and they make her feel clunky to play at times (see BJN's post about the LK animation thing. Uair also suffers from this to some degree). Nothing drastic, maybe 3 or 4 frames or so

- Do...something with Dtilt. It feels like it's lacking purpose in her moveset right now. Either reduce the endlag further, increase the damage, give it better range, or modify the angle...just something please. This move is so sad right now and it shouldn't be so underwhelming when things like Paisy Dtilt exist

- the range is actually lolsobad, I'd prefer this fix over the other adjustments since the balance team doesn't want her to have an easy Dtilt Kick combo outside of a very specific % range

- Smash 4's angle would honestly be a little too good due to the lower Dtilt FAF, shorter jumpsquat, and faster Fair of Ult Zelda, so that's why I say to just adjust the angle inwards only a little bit
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Lower Priority/QoL Changes

- Please make Usmash actually useful OoS. Sometimes it misses even against some dash attacks. Not asking for Brawl's stupid range, but just a liiiittle more horizontal range would be nice

- Revert the random nerfs to Ftilt. That move wasn't even that good in 4, idk why they reverted the buffs in Ult. This is a pretty low priority buff tho. It wouldn't change a whole lot in the long run


Overall I'm generally pretty pleased with how Zelda is right now. However, at *minimum* I want Nair fixed :(

And Please Nintendo/Sakurai/Balance Team don't gut her specials. They are fine how they are now and, contrary to popular belief, can easily be punished if misused
 
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StoicPhantom

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#6
I feel like the only glaring flaw, is her disadvantage. It's bad for balancing reasons of course, but I feel like it is too bad, even taking that into consideration. The overall flow of the various states of Zelda and whatever character I'm fighting, feels good for the most part, until we reach disadvantage for Zelda, and suddenly it is very "one is not like the others." It can be bad enough in certain MUs, that skill won't be able to overcome it and relies on the opponent to make a mistake, often after Zelda takes like 60-70%. It requires Zelda to pretty much play neutral perfect, or she is taking major deficit and will have any lead quickly reversed off of one mistake or loss.

I feel like combining this with her lightweight and high risk, high reward kit, isn't good balance and will put a greater than is necessary burden on the player. I get the feeling that the original idea was an extreme advantage, in exchange for an extreme disadvantage, but they didn't factor in that the opponents likely have a greater weight and better landing tools, to offset Zelda's amazing advantage state a little. It is easier to keep Zelda in disadvantage, than it is for her to keep her opponent in the same. Ultimate's meta being centered around low committal options doesn't help, as some characters can simply dash dance near the ledge and cover every landing option, because even if they guess the wrong option, they're low committal enough to quickly punish after their whiff anyway.

I'm just not sure how you would go about doing that exactly, without affecting the balance in other places. We don't really need Palutena getting 60% off of a Nair string, with the potential of comboing into Up-air, which may KO and if it doesn't, still allows her to press the advantage and have a decent chance of killing with the next option, essentially killing Zelda at 0 from a low committal option. But we also don't need Zelda to become the next Ivysaur and be able to do something like easily ladder Up-airs from an Up-Tilt and kill or combo into a quick, risk free Up-B, either. Not to mention the chaos that would ensue, if you could easily land LKs out of pretty much anything.

One idea I did hear in another topic, was having FW's endlag only happen on successful hit, being lagless like Palutena's if it doesn't. ZSS's Flip Jump works similar, if you don't do the kick. At the very least, it could stand to have the endlag reduced, while still allowing for it to be punished on shield or near the opponent. It's not really cool that you can time it with an opponent's whiff and they can still quickly dash and dash attack or Up-air punish, sending her back in disadvantage.

If they do get that straightened out, then I feel like she would be perfectly balanced and wouldn't really desire any further changes. The only thing I can really think of, is Up-Smash needing to have some sort of use case. Lots of aerials can simply fast fall through the startup and hit Zelda before the active frames or even through the active frames. I can't think of any real uses, other than very specific things, like punishing Shulk's Nair cross ups. Hard reads and other OoS situations are possible, but there is almost always a better option, like LK or Up-B.
 

~?~

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#7
The best way to buff Zelda is to forget about her. She promotes bad strategy and habits heavily. She is a bad player magnet and some. She doesn't teach movement. She doesn't teach neutral. She doesn't teach edge guarding. She doesn't teach disadvantage state escaping methods. In fact, her attacks do everything for the player, the player doesn't have to do much with her to play her. Spam neutral special to escape disadvantage, spam teleport to cover zoners, spam phantom and fire for edge guarding instead of actually getting good at it. To be honest, Zelda is the last type of character that should be buffed in this game. I'd be fine with her bad strategy teaching bad habit breading ways being bottom tier and all the Zelda mains moved to an actual character that requires learning the game engine and utilizing it.

Long story short, there is no buff I want for Zelda. No, I don't want her nurfed, I just want her forgotten. This isn't me flaming either, it's legit my opinion.
 
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StoicPhantom

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#8
The best way to buff Zelda is to forget about her. She promotes bad strategy and habits heavily. She is a bad player magnet and some. She doesn't teach movement. She doesn't teach neutral. She doesn't teach edge guarding. She doesn't teach disadvantage state escaping methods. In fact, her attacks do everything for the player, the player doesn't have to do much with her to play her. Spam neutral special to escape disadvantage, spam teleport to cover zoners, spam phantom and fire for edge guarding instead of actually getting good at it. To be honest, Zelda is the last type of character that should be buffed in this game. I'd be fine with her bad strategy teaching bad habit breading ways being bottom tier and all the Zelda mains moved to an actual character that requires learning the game engine and utilizing it.
You're either trolling or have legit never played Zelda at a higher level or offline at all. Absolutely none of this is true, otherwise all the top players would be playing her.
 

~?~

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#9
You're either trolling or have legit never played Zelda at a higher level or offline at all. Absolutely none of this is true, otherwise all the top players would be playing her.
None of the top players are playing her because of the things I just mentioned that you quoted but potentially didn't read carefully. Top players and high level offline play doesn't see Zelda because Zelda is a bad character that appeals to bad players. Her tools are designed in such a way that the people maining her don't actually learn any valuable fundamentals, especially when it comes to edge guarding and disadvantage state. Everything I said is 100% true, and your reply only emboldens what I said.
 

Venclaire

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#10
Ultimately, I think Zelda should be re-designed to an extent. I can't comment on how, but Sakurai is Sakurai. If he can give Villager a moveset, he can re-design Zelda easily if he desires
 

StoicPhantom

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#11
None of the top players are playing her because of the things I just mentioned that you quoted but potentially didn't read carefully. Top players and high level offline play doesn't see Zelda because Zelda is a bad character that appeals to bad players. Her tools are designed in such a way that the people maining her don't actually learn any valuable fundamentals, especially when it comes to edge guarding and disadvantage state. Everything I said is 100% true, and your reply only emboldens what I said.
You just said that she does all the work for the player. That's like a top players ideal character. I did read your drivel, it still isn't true. Either she is a bad character or she does everything for the player you have to pick one. You still haven't explained WHY she is supposedly all those things either.
 

~?~

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#12
Ultimately, I think Zelda should be re-designed to an extent. I can't comment on how, but Sakurai is Sakurai. If he can give Villager a moveset, he can re-design Zelda easily if he desires
I FAR more agree with this than the foolish prospect of 'buffing' her bad habit teaching toolkits.

You just said that she does all the work for the player. That's like a top players ideal character. I did read your drivel, it still isn't true. Either she is a bad character or she does everything for the player you have to pick one. You still haven't explained WHY she is supposedly all those things either.
SHE DOES do all the work for the player. Phantom covers ledge get up and jump while Zelda sits and waits for the roll. Easiest trap in the game with the least strict timing and least demanding inputs. Fire edge guards for her, so most zeldas suck at extending offstage because half the time they have the option to do so, they just toss a fire off stage. Yes, she does EVERYTHING for the player, which is why the player playing her never gets good at fundamentals, and you can see it when they switch to a different character. They don't practice the fundamentals like most other mains because they don't have to use them as often as other mains do.
 

StoicPhantom

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#13
SHE DOES do all the work for the player. Phantom covers ledge get up and jump while Zelda sits and waits for the roll. Easiest trap in the game with the least strict timing and least demanding inputs. Fire edge guards for her, so most zeldas suck at extending offstage because half the time they have the option to do so, they just toss a fire off stage. Yes, she does EVERYTHING for the player, which is why the player playing her never gets good at fundamentals, and you can see it when they switch to a different character. They don't practice the fundamentals like most other mains because they don't have to use them as often as other mains do.
...Which would then make her a good character that top players would want to play. Fundamentals are called that, because they are the foundation of fighting games and how you play them. If a character bypassed fundamentals that would mean they are so strong, that they basically break the game, like Feral Chaos spamming Via Dolorossa in Dissidia Duodecim. As in, they would be banned from tournament play.
 

~?~

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#14
...Which would then make her a good character that top players would want to play. Fundamentals are called that, because they are the foundation of fighting games and how you play them. If a character bypassed fundamentals that would mean they are so strong, that they basically break the game, like Feral Chaos spamming Via Dolorossa in Dissidia Duodecim. As in, they would be banned from tournament play.
Just because I said that the moves do everything for the player, rather than the player having to do everything with the move, doesn't mean I also think they are GOOD options. Just because they do the work for you doesn't make the option viable. It just makes it less demanding. Hence why I said 'bad habit teaching character'.

It's far more viable to extend offstage, but that Zelda is OBVIOUSLY going to toss a fire instead, because it's 'safer'.

If someone said 'zelda toolkit needs reworked' I would agree. When someone says 'buff zeldas bad toolkit', then I disagree.
 
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StoicPhantom

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#15
Just because I said that the moves do everything for the player, rather than the player having to do everything with the move, doesn't mean I also think they are GOOD options. Just because they do the work for you doesn't make the option viable. It just makes it less demanding. Hence why I said 'bad habit teaching character'.

It's far more viable to extend offstage, but that Zelda is OBVIOUSLY going to toss a fire instead, because it's 'safer'.
Okay, are you actually trolling here? Having the character do all the work for the player, implies winning through all the states and the match. If an option isn't viable, that means it can't win in any situation, meaning the character isn't winning games for the player. Phantom being " the easiest trap in the game" means it is a viable option, which combined with all the other moves you mentioned, that supposedly wins their respective states, would make her a good and apparently easy character that top players would love.

If you just want to rant about getting bodied by a quickplay Zelda, then there are more appropriate topics, but it is pretty clear you haven't played the character much or understand fighting games on a fundamental level, at this point.
 

~?~

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#16
Okay, are you actually trolling here? Having the character do all the work for the player, implies winning through all the states and the match. If an option isn't viable, that means it can't win in any situation, meaning the character isn't winning games for the player. Phantom being " the easiest trap in the game" means it is a viable option, which combined with all the other moves you mentioned, that supposedly wins their respective states, would make her a good and apparently easy character that top players would love.

If you just want to rant about getting bodied by a quickplay Zelda, then there are more appropriate topics, but it is pretty clear you haven't played the character much or understand fighting games on a fundamental level, at this point.
It doesn't imply any such thing. If you keep missing what I continuously repeat, you'd assume that. Just because an option does work for you, doesn't mean the option is good. A chrom player knows how to recover, because his recovery doesn't do it all for him and it's actually bad and they have to work harder than Zelda to get back on stage. A Ganon knows how to get on the opponent in neutral, because they don't have a teleport or neutral special to avoid disadvantage, they have to fight their way out of it. A Lucina knows how to edge guard, because she goes off stage and aims her sword at the right place at the right time, where Zelda just throws out a Fire or sets up a cheese play with Phantom at the ledge while sitting in ledge roll range. A Link knows how to zone other zoners because he doesn't have a Phantom projectile that zones while blocking zoning tools during launch and after launch or a teleport to bypass it all.. If you understood what the word 'fundamental' means, you'd know it doesn't apply to the option itself, but how it can be used by the player piloting the option. Zelda's options are not fundamental friendly and encourage bad habits. THAT is why Zelda sucks the most, not just because her options are bad, but because those bad options also train bad habits and lack fundamentals training overall. You only call it trolling because you're a Zelda main, and I understand it hurts your feelings, but facts are facts.

Don't resort to auto-pilot defensive bias for your character, it wont help your debate.

Fundamentals would be things like movement options, off stage play, disadvantage state and escaping it, pushing extensions for consistent damage output or kill combos etc etc. Zelda teaches none of this and it will always be the one reason why she isn't even worth buffing. If you give an autopilot an inch, it will take a mile. 1 inch on Zelda could be the difference between a bad character VS an insanely over powered abomination that no one has to work for their wins with. That's why I'm for scrapping the character and reworking the toolkit overall rather than buffing a toolkit that encourages bad habits and allowing it to carry bad players.
 
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StoicPhantom

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#17
It doesn't imply any such thing. If you keep missing what I continuously repeat, you'd assume that. Just because an option does work for you, doesn't mean the option is good. A chrom player knows how to recovery, because his recovery doesn't do it all for him. A ganon knows how to get on the opponent in neutral, because they don't have a neutral special as an auto-get off me option like Zelda. A Lucina knows how to edge guard, because she goes off stage and aims her sword at the right place at the right time, where Zelda just throws out a Fire or sets up a cheese play with Phantom at the ledge while sitting in ledge roll range. A Link knows how to zone other zoners because he doesn't have a Phantom projectile that zones while blocking zoning tools during launch and after launch. If you understood what the word 'fundamental' means, you'd know it doesn't apply to the option itself, but how it can be used by the player piloting the option. Zelda's options are not fundamental friendly and encourage bad habits. THAT is why Zelda sucks the most, not just because her options are bad, but because those bad options also train bad habits and lack fundamentals training overall. You only call it trolling because you're a Zelda main, and I understand it hurts your feelings, but facts are facts.

Don't resort to auto-pilot defensive bias for your character, it wont help your debate.
Since it seems you are pretty content in wallowing in your ignorance, I don't really feel like explaining too much, why that is ignorant. You are wrong on such a fundamental level, both about Zelda and fighting games, we would literally have to start from square one and there are plenty of resources you could learn from, this board being one of them. However, since I'm generous, I'll give you a "small" snippet:

Nayru's Love

Can be baited and the copious endlag punished severely. Large disjoints can go through it and hit Zelda safely. Characters with Fox's Nair, can drop straight through the corners on the top and hit Zelda. The intangibility is only at the start, so you need precise timing in order to make effective use of this move.

Farore's WInd

Has a not insignificant startup and a large amount of endlag, making precise timing and reads mandatory or you'll be eating a hard punish. It only has specific distance, so proper spacing is required to hit opponents at various parts of the stage. Not safe on shield, not safe on whiff, not safe using when some characters are on the other side of the stage. The ladder can be DI'd, so requires an angle adjustment and DI read. Also, the obvious startup, means it's easy to time a two frame, which can easily be done, with a sufficiently wide or long lasting hitbox, requiring Zelda to mixup her recovery.

Phantom Knight

If either Phantom or Zelda is hit before the hitbox comes out, it will immediately fall apart. This means projectiles and any attack can easily interrupt requiring Zelda to be smart about how she charges. There is also a fair amount of startup and endlag, so requires proper spacing to safely use. When the hitbox comes out, you have the option to do anything from jumping to parrying, so it requires conditioning and a read, done through observing the opponents habits. It is a projectile, so can be reflected. Ledge trapping still leaves a 50-50 between any of the getup options and one other and some characters can avoid that situation altogether.

Din's Fire

Has a fairly long and obvious path and it requires the full length, in order to do any major knockback. This means forcing the opponent to burn through their resources and reading their path. It also will not cover every angle, so you need to be in specific positions. And of course, like most of Zelda's moves, it has a sweet-spot, so you need to be precise.

And since you seem to be so hung up on going out to edgeguard, here's a video compilation done by yours truly, on a character that can't be hit by Din's Fire or Phantom for free:


As you can see, it's a little more complicated than you're making it out to be. I would suggest closing your mouth and actually taking the time to read the board we are posting on. There is literally all this information that would correct your misconceptions, you don't even have to google.
 

SUDOZELDA

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#18
Since it seems you are pretty content in wallowing in your ignorance, I don't really feel like explaining too much, why that is ignorant. You are wrong on such a fundamental level, both about Zelda and fighting games, we would literally have to start from square one and there are plenty of resources you could learn from, this board being one of them. However, since I'm generous, I'll give you a "small" snippet:

Nayru's Love

Can be baited and the copious endlag punished severely. Large disjoints can go through it and hit Zelda safely. Characters with Fox's Nair, can drop straight through the corners on the top and hit Zelda. The intangibility is only at the start, so you need precise timing in order to make effective use of this move.

Farore's WInd

Has a not insignificant startup and a large amount of endlag, making precise timing and reads mandatory or you'll be eating a hard punish. It only has specific distance, so proper spacing is required to hit opponents at various parts of the stage. Not safe on shield, not safe on whiff, not safe using when some characters are on the other side of the stage. The ladder can be DI'd, so requires an angle adjustment and DI read. Also, the obvious startup, means it's easy to time a two frame, which can easily be done, with a sufficiently wide or long lasting hitbox, requiring Zelda to mixup her recovery.

Phantom Knight

If either Phantom or Zelda is hit before the hitbox comes out, it will immediately fall apart. This means projectiles and any attack can easily interrupt requiring Zelda to be smart about how she charges. There is also a fair amount of startup and endlag, so requires proper spacing to safely use. When the hitbox comes out, you have the option to do anything from jumping to parrying, so it requires conditioning and a read, done through observing the opponents habits. It is a projectile, so can be reflected. Ledge trapping still leaves a 50-50 between any of the getup options and one other and some characters can avoid that situation altogether.

Din's Fire

Has a fairly long and obvious path and it requires the full length, in order to do any major knockback. This means forcing the opponent to burn through their resources and reading their path. It also will not cover every angle, so you need to be in specific positions. And of course, like most of Zelda's moves, it has a sweet-spot, so you need to be precise.

And since you seem to be so hung up on going out to edgeguard, here's a video compilation done by yours truly, on a character that can't be hit by Din's Fire or Phantom for free:


As you can see, it's a little more complicated than you're making it out to be. I would suggest closing your mouth and actually taking the time to read the board we are posting on. There is literally all this information that would correct your misconceptions, you don't even have to google.
I agree with this 100%.
 

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#19
Better overall mobility would be a good start. Why Zelda runs slower than the Belmonts is beyond me, especially considering the weight differences between them.

Also, for the f-air and b-air, buff up the BKB for the sweetspots so that even the heaviest fighters would enter a tumbling state at 0% damage. However, buffing a hitbox's BKB does mean that its KBG has to be reduced along the way; it's basically a balancing measure.
 

~?~

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#20
Since it seems you are pretty content in wallowing in your ignorance, I don't really feel like explaining too much, why that is ignorant. You are wrong on such a fundamental level, both about Zelda and fighting games, we would literally have to start from square one and there are plenty of resources you could learn from, this board being one of them. However, since I'm generous, I'll give you a "small" snippet:

Nayru's Love

Can be baited and the copious endlag punished severely. Large disjoints can go through it and hit Zelda safely. Characters with Fox's Nair, can drop straight through the corners on the top and hit Zelda. The intangibility is only at the start, so you need precise timing in order to make effective use of this move.

Farore's WInd

Has a not insignificant startup and a large amount of endlag, making precise timing and reads mandatory or you'll be eating a hard punish. It only has specific distance, so proper spacing is required to hit opponents at various parts of the stage. Not safe on shield, not safe on whiff, not safe using when some characters are on the other side of the stage. The ladder can be DI'd, so requires an angle adjustment and DI read. Also, the obvious startup, means it's easy to time a two frame, which can easily be done, with a sufficiently wide or long lasting hitbox, requiring Zelda to mixup her recovery.



Phantom Knight

If either Phantom or Zelda is hit before the hitbox comes out, it will immediately fall apart. This means projectiles and any attack can easily interrupt requiring Zelda to be smart about how she charges. There is also a fair amount of startup and endlag, so requires proper spacing to safely use. When the hitbox comes out, you have the option to do anything from jumping to parrying, so it requires conditioning and a read, done through observing the opponents habits. It is a projectile, so can be reflected. Ledge trapping still leaves a 50-50 between any of the getup options and one other and some characters can avoid that situation altogether.

Din's Fire

Has a fairly long and obvious path and it requires the full length, in order to do any major knockback. This means forcing the opponent to burn through their resources and reading their path. It also will not cover every angle, so you need to be in specific positions. And of course, like most of Zelda's moves, it has a sweet-spot, so you need to be precise.

And since you seem to be so hung up on going out to edgeguard, here's a video compilation done by yours truly, on a character that can't be hit by Din's Fire or Phantom for free:


As you can see, it's a little more complicated than you're making it out to be. I would suggest closing your mouth and actually taking the time to read the board we are posting on. There is literally all this information that would correct your misconceptions, you don't even have to google.

Are you joking or intentionally ignoring what I said? I never EVER said that Zelda's options are good. I REPEATEDLY said they are bad. I also repeatedly said that her options encourage BAD HABITS. What part of that do you not wrap your brain around? I'm not misinformed, I played the character before I mained Link. I have FULL understanding of the foolish habits Zelda as a character inherently teaches people, and the general advanced fundamentals she DOES NOT teach as a character. So this idea that wallowing in ignorance is itself, absolute ignorance. You not only ignored everything I said, like 4 times in a row, but you then proceeded to explain the exact reasons why Zeldas end up stuck performing bad habit after bad habit. Just because the option does all the work for you, doesn't mean it's a good option. I've been over this repeatedly. The moves frame data isn't the issue, the moves hitbox sizes are not the issue. The issue is the ENTIRETY of the natures of her moves in her toolkit. That will continue to be the case, and buffing her will either never be enough, or too much, there is no between for her type of toolkit and never will be without redoing the character.

Also, side note. Edge guarding joker isn't exactly a good example to use. Of ALL the characters to edge guard example me with, you give me one of the most straight forward, easy recoveries to edge guard? Ghod was edge guarding Jokers the first day he payed the game. I'm very VERY unimpressed with this example. If you wouldn't mind providing an edge guard compilation against actual recoveries that aren't the easiest in the game to exploit, against notably high skill ceiling holding players, I'll reconsider your edge guard tactics with Zelda. Until then, I'm going to assume your play as I do every zelda I see, ever, that if you have the option to toss a Fire, you'll do that before going off stage, even if that Fire is far more likely to miss.
 
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Haden

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#21
Also, side note. Edge guarding joker isn't exactly a good example to use. Of ALL the characters to edge guard example me with, you give me one of the most straight forward, easy recoveries to edge guard? Ghod was edge guarding Jokers the first day he payed the game. I'm very VERY unimpressed with this example. .
i second this. a casual can edge guard joker. it's like the most bread and butter way to exploit him.
i also don't think zelda should be buffed because she'll just end up being an unbalanced disaster like she was in project m. she needs some type of mechanical change or something done to her ground based movement speed. i strongly disagree with buffing her style of moves.

-edit- i also noticed that zeldas that lose with zelda often lose with their secondaries just as bad. its a common thing i see in the youtube search results for tournament play when i watch zeldas play (because i wanted a joke pocket character to troll competitive players with and was seeing what the competitive zeldas are up to to learn from it). when a zelda switches to their secondary or pocket they usually are too stuck on their zelda habits to bath properly into the glory of a real character. it is true that zelda isnt exactly a character that helps you learn the fundamentals or even really allows you to work with fundumentals even if you do learn them with another character.

also, fight my zelda with your link. i know i have the better end of the matchup but fight me anyway with that broken thumb. i need the handicap while i learn this lol
 
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#22
Are you brain dead or intentionally ignoring what I said? I never EVER said that Zelda's options are good. I REPEATEDLY said they are bad. I also repeatedly said that her options encourage BAD HABITS. What part of that do you not wrap your brain around? I'm not misinformed, I played the character before I mained Link.
You came screeching into the topic, spouting about how Zelda does everything for the player and I gave you that list to prove otherwise. Zelda does NOT carry her players by any stretch of the imagination. I've never heard anyone refer to her as an autopilot character, because that's patently ridiculous, even with a brief amount of time playing her. Zelda doesn't bypass fundamentals, she REQUIRES solid fundamentals to even work at a basic level. All of her moves require precision and naturally, that's going to require a solid base of spacing. You're not going to automatically land sweet-spots without understanding at least that. I don't know where you got the idea that any character could possibly teach bad habits or not teach fundamentals, that's also a completely silly idea. Bad habits get punished, no matter what character you're playing. If you want to do decent at all, you're naturally going to avoid them.

You keep going on about how her moves teach or don't teach, you still have yet to elaborate. What "nature" do you speak of? Why can Zelda players like Ven and Mystearica place top 32 at prestigious tournaments like Pound and Prime, if they have bad habits? What bad habits precisely are we talking about?

You keep going on about Din's Fire and edgeguardiing with it. Yes, that is a valid edgeguard. No, Zeldas aren't going to use it all the time. As an actual Zelda main, who has put over 200 hours in her, I can tell you what is and isn't a viable edgeguard, depends on the situation and character. Some characters can't be edgeguarded with close options or have very exploitable recoveries, so using Din's Fire is a good option. Others, can be easily spiked by Dair or edgeguarded by Nayru, so that might be a better option. If you're going to be hanging near and above the ledge, you bet I'm going to use Phantom to snipe you.

I used the Joker compilation, because that's what I had uploaded and on hand at the time. No, I'm not going to go through the effort to make and upload another one, that would take too much effort and time. Assuming is literally all you've done since you came into this topic. Somehow, the idea that your personal anecdotes don't speak for all Zeldas, hasn't quite crossed your mind. At the end of the day, what works, works. If you're getting edgeguarded by Din's Fire all the time, which by the sounds of things you are, then of course I'm going to keep doing it. That's just common sense.
 

~?~

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#23
You came screeching into the topic, spouting about how Zelda does everything for the player and I gave you that list to prove otherwise. Zelda does NOT carry her players by any stretch of the imagination. I've never heard anyone refer to her as an autopilot character, because that's patently ridiculous, even with a brief amount of time playing her. Zelda doesn't bypass fundamentals, she REQUIRES solid fundamentals to even work at a basic level. All of her moves require precision and naturally, that's going to require a solid base of spacing. You're not going to automatically land sweet-spots without understanding at least that. I don't know where you got the idea that any character could possibly teach bad habits or not teach fundamentals, that's also a completely silly idea. Bad habits get punished, no matter what character you're playing. If you want to do decent at all, you're naturally going to avoid them.

You keep going on about how her moves teach or don't teach, you still have yet to elaborate. What "nature" do you speak of? Why can Zelda players like Ven and Mystearica place top 32 at prestigious tournaments like Pound and Prime, if they have bad habits? What bad habits precisely are we talking about?

You keep going on about Din's Fire and edgeguardiing with it. Yes, that is a valid edgeguard. No, Zeldas aren't going to use it all the time. As an actual Zelda main, who has put over 200 hours in her, I can tell you what is and isn't a viable edgeguard, depends on the situation and character. Some characters can't be edgeguarded with close options or have very exploitable recoveries, so using Din's Fire is a good option. Others, can be easily spiked by Dair or edgeguarded by Nayru, so that might be a better option. If you're going to be hanging near and above the ledge, you bet I'm going to use Phantom to snipe you.

I used the Joker compilation, because that's what I had uploaded and on hand at the time. No, I'm not going to go through the effort to make and upload another one, that would take too much effort and time. Assuming is literally all you've done since you came into this topic. Somehow, the idea that your personal anecdotes don't speak for all Zeldas, hasn't quite crossed your mind. At the end of the day, what works, works. If you're getting edgeguarded by Din's Fire all the time, which by the sounds of things you are, then of course I'm going to keep doing it. That's just common sense.

I didn't say Zelda carried her players, I said that buffing Zelda would make carrying her players a reality. You again ignored what I said. Buffing this type of toolkit has already been done in a smash game, and it was a disaster.
I don't think I've been hit with an offstage Fire since the first month I played and if you go back and reread what I said about Fire, I called it a bad option that often misses more than going off stage with a hitbox does. It's not a viable assumption because it's not only false, but desperate.

The only fundamental objective I learned with the character is keeping a safe distance, and sweetspotting toe and how to trap the ledge with cheese.
Your 200 hours VS my about 180 isn't a huge difference.
There is a reason I dropped the character. Actually, I named multiples.

1- I wasn't learning valuable stage control
2- I wasn't learning viable disadvantage escapes
3- I wasn't learning extension and threatening edge guard setups,
 

Haden

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#24
I didn't say Zelda carried her players, I said that buffing Zelda would make carrying her players a reality. You again ignored what I said. Buffing this type of toolkit has already been done in a smash game, and it was a disaster.
I don't think I've been hit with an offstage Fire since the first month I played and if you go back and reread what I said about Fire, I called it a bad option that often misses more than going off stage with a hitbox does. It's not a viable assumption because it's not only false, but desperate.

The only fundamental objective I learned with the character is keeping a safe distance, and sweetspotting toe and how to trap the ledge with cheese.
Your 200 hours VS my about 180 isn't a huge difference.
There is a reason I dropped the character. Actually, I named multiples.

1- I wasn't learning valuable stage control
2- I wasn't learning viable disadvantage escapes
3- I wasn't learning extension and threatening edge guard setups,
Why don't you two just play on Friday when you do your open arenas?
 
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#25
I didn't say Zelda carried her players, I said that buffing Zelda would make carrying her players a reality. You again ignored what I said.,
...
In fact, her attacks do everything for the player, the player doesn't have to do much with her to play her.
SHE DOES do all the work for the player.
Yes, she does EVERYTHING for the player
Just because I said that the moves do everything for the player, rather than the player having to do everything with the move,
Everything I said is 100% true

I
Buffing this type of toolkit has already been done in a smash game, and it was a disaster.
This has nothing to do with what I was addressing.

The only fundamental objective I learned with the character is keeping a safe distance, and sweetspotting toe and how to trap the ledge with cheese.
So in other words, fundamentals. And you keep referring to Phantom as "cheese", which sounds suspiciously like scrub talk and makes me doubt your motives.

Your 200 hours VS my about 180 isn't a huge difference.
I just checked and it's actually at 237:24.

There is a reason I dropped the character. Actually, I named multiples.

1- I wasn't learning valuable stage control
2- I wasn't learning viable disadvantage escapes
3- I wasn't learning extension and threatening edge guard setups,
That sounds like a you problem, not a character problem, as you need all those explicitly in order to do anything with Zelda.

You still haven't elaborated as to why and what bad habits Zelda teaches.
 

Downshift

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#26
There is a reason I dropped the character. Actually, I named multiples.

1- I wasn't learning valuable stage control
2- I wasn't learning viable disadvantage escapes
3- I wasn't learning extension and threatening edge guard setups,
Sounds like you're just not good at the character.

1 - Zelda has a decent neural, so I'm not sure what your struggle is. She can play very defensively, keeping the opponent out while pressuring them from afar and from the air. She can also switch to offense quickly, especially with Farore OoS. Her threatening moves also condition shields and her grab game is decent as well. Phantom is very good at pressuring in neutral as well and her initial dash being fast enough to mix up her movement and approaches to be able to get in.
If you're trying to play her as a rushdown or pure zoner, she's not designed wrong; you're playing her wrong.

2 - Zelda's weak disadvantage forces me to read and anticipate the opponent's options and habits during their advantage. I've gotten much better at this mental aspect of the game since at least Brawl using Zelda.

3 - Zelda has some of the best edgeguard setups in the game, as well as decent ledge traps. What any pro Zelda player like Stoic mentioned and you'll see. I can pressure opponents safely from the stage, (Like Samus, Wolf, Villager, Link, DHD, Mega Man...), or I can go out and land spikes or throw out Nayru to stuff recoveries. You can even time Phantom to force an airdodge and them nuke them with Din's during their air dodge lag.
No noob is ever going to be able to do this though.

Zelda's not a braindead character, she's a patience and precision character that actually requires quickly planning multiple moves ahead and being able to read and anticipate your opponent. If you can't do any of that, you were definitely right to drop her.

Go play Lucina.
 
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Coolboy

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#27
maaaan someone here really hates Zelda..what have she ever done to you?! making you lose to many matches?! xD
but in all seriousness though it really seems like a personal grudge you have against Zelda only someone who had very bad experiences with a character would talk that way.
it's not weird to just admit you are bad with a character,
i got characters i am bad with, but you don't see me wanting the character to be ''forgotten'' or saying they are for bad payers just to stroke my own ego.
 
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Lacrimosa

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#28
Can we give fair/bair some kind of knockback on the sourspot?
It honestly should be a move that functions similar to how Roy's sweet and sourspots work: The sweetspot is incredibly strong but the sourspot is like swinging a wet noodle in Roy's case but it still has some kind of knockback: Weak, but it's there. But her fair/bair and the sourspot is pretty much negative on hit and that really shouldn't be the case :/.
And I didn't know Palu's teleport has little to no endlag but since she has a hitbox then zero endlag would be kinda eh but I agree that the endlag should be reduced to some degree if she doesn't hit anything. Otherwise spamming teleport would be awful for the opponent:
If you hit then you receive big knockboack and if you don't hit then you can't be really punished for that.

Fixing nair..is that necessary? I haven't had it happened once that my opponent falls out if I go with the attack (Mystearica says the sameabout nair). Trying to drag someone down will result in the opponent falling out (imo you should fall out of Pika's nair while we're at this). If she could drag you down then the resulting tech-chase would be pretty busted.
 

~?~

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#29
Sounds like you're just not good at the character.

1 - Zelda has a decent neural, so I'm not sure what your struggle is.
If you're trying to play her as a rushdown or pure zoner, she's not designed wrong; you're playing her wrong.

2 - Zelda's weak disadvantage forces me to read and anticipate the opponent's options and habits during their advantage.

3 - Zelda has some of the best edgeguard setups in the game,

Go play Lucina.
1 - If zelda had a 'decent neutral', she'd have a viable neutral, but she doesn't. Frame data to cover her neutral weakness is one of the most common buff requests I see from virtually every zelda, because they don't want to be punished so easily. If the neutral she had was decent, Zelda mains common complaints wouldn't be how punishable she is in neutral all the time. Don't contradict yourselves. It's embarrassing.

2- Zeldas weak disadvantage is why virtually every Zelda auto pilots neutral special (a bad habit).

3- If Zelda had some of the best edge guard setups (not even close to the best), I'd see Zelda's use them, both casually and competitively, which I almost never do. I see a lot of cheese traps with phantom and fire tho. Zelda is without a doubt, leagues below better edge guard characters. Don't make me laugh with this.

Addressing Lucina: I have a pocket Lucina. I also have a pocket Zelda (who was my first main). I actually learned a great deal more in this game playing spacers like Lucina than sub-zoners like Zelda.

...

This has nothing to do with what I was addressing.

So in other words, fundamentals. And you keep referring to Phantom as "cheese", which sounds suspiciously like scrub talk and makes me doubt your motives.

I just checked and it's actually at 237:24.

That sounds like a you problem, not a character problem, as you need all those explicitly in order to do anything with Zelda.

You still haven't elaborated as to why and what bad habits Zelda teaches.
Phantom ledge trapping IS cheese. Cheese only works consistently against anyone with little to no matchup experience, thus a not very viable option. You're right, it's a me problem, because I like characters that allow a higher skill ceiling for me to learn, rather than using the rinse and repeat cheese that is the entire Zelda character. So it has nothing to do with being bad with the character and everything to do with character being bad herself, I've already addressed that. I don't play Zelda because I'm not into cheese, and I'm not into buffing cheese because buffed cheese is what creates over powered characters in a platform fighter. I'm more into the idea of reworking her toolkit to not being cheese.

Again, 180 hours over Zelda, so 237 isn't relevant to me or relevant to even bring up. Anyone with over 50 hours on any character has enough experience with the character to say they know what to do with it.

If you want, I'll play you in a favorable matchup for you, on my broken thumb, and beat you. I'll exploit all your bad habits that virtually every Zelda has and punish your whiffs, which will be the majority of your attempts. You'll be missing every Fire, and since I have external methods to recover, I wont be getting cheesed by your phantom. Choice is yours tho. I have open arenas on Friday and Saturday nights, Fridays has long lines but Saturdays is invite open arenas that has a 2 person limit, but you can choose either one, I don't care.
We can go best of 3, best of 5 or first to 5. Your choice also. I'll even let you have first stage pick.

I like how you Zelda mains come in here talking about how amazing her tools are to defend the bad character from the hardline truth you're so hurt about, while at the same time calling her tools bad and asking for frame data buffs. You people contradict yourselves.
 
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Haden

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#30
1 - If zelda had a 'decent neutral', she'd have a viable neutral, but she doesn't. Frame data to cover her neutral weakness is one of the most common buff requests I see from virtually every zelda, because they don't want to be punished so easily. If the neutral she had was decent, Zelda mains common complaints wouldn't be how punishable she is in neutral all the time. Don't contradict yourselves. It's embarrassing.

2- Zeldas weak disadvantage is why virtually every Zelda auto pilots neutral special (a bad habit).

3- If Zelda had some of the best edge guard setups (not even close to the best), I'd see Zelda's use them, both casually and competitively, which I almost never do. I see a lot of cheese traps with phantom and fire tho. Zelda is without a doubt, leagues below better edge guard characters. Don't make me laugh with this.
oh snap go easy on them man xD you're gonna break some bones here. but yeah zeldas neutral sucks and now that i've been playing her the past couple weeks now, i do notice i tend to favor pressing the b button to get out of the shtf moments. and yes her edge guarding tools suck except against really bad recoveries. she has ledge trap setups but she doesnt have anything really viable and practical which is also universal as far as actual off stage edge guarding goes. i think theyre confusing ledge trapping with edge guarding. sound like casuals to me lol

2 things i think are true when you say zelda teaches bad habits are the following.
1: she is a ledge trapper, so she encourages camping the ledge to cover recoveries rather than going off stage to end the stock earlier. this is probably why when i see zelda mains switch to other characters, they strattle the ledge instead of edge guarding.
2: she has a really good get off me tool in neutral special so i dont find myself in situations of having to sdi out of hard punishes as often, and i notice this as well when zeldas switch from their mains to other characters,

i will say this, zelda does force you to work harder to get in on neutral if you can't zone the opponent with her toolkit. thats about the only thing i notice skill wise that she teaches. how to break through rush downs with a slow character with slow options. the rest of the fundamentals isnt even a thought in her head lol.

yalls hatred for eachother is kinda entertaining. im gonna watch from teh sides and eat some popcorn now.
also you didnt respond when i asked you to play against my zelda. open a private arena so i can get some matchup experience.
 
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~?~

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#31
yalls hatred for eachother is kinda entertaining. im gonna watch from teh sides and eat some popcorn now.
also you didnt respond when i asked you to play against my zelda. open a private arena so i can get some matchup experience.
But your Zelda suuuuuucks. I mean, I'll play against it if you want I guess but like... I'd rather you play your main lol. Bro just stick to Ike. I'm far more into neutral engagement than having to out-zone a bad zoner.
 
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#32
And I didn't know Palu's teleport has little to no endlag but since she has a hitbox then zero endlag would be kinda eh but I agree that the endlag should be reduced to some degree if she doesn't hit anything. Otherwise spamming teleport would be awful for the opponent:
If you hit then you receive big knockboack and if you don't hit then you can't be really punished for that.
It's not completely lagless, but it might as well be when used in the proper context. You pretty much have to be standing next to her when she lands, to actually punish. I used Palutena's as an example, because she's not safe in landing next to her opponent and if her opponent gets a read on her landing, they can still punish. That's why Palutena mains often learn how to ledge cancel, to help mixup her landings. If we apply that to Zelda, it would still allow for her opponent to whiff punish and Zelda would have to be careful about spamming it, lest her opponent starts reading her landing habits. Due to that, she wouldn't be able to land on the ground all the time and landing on the platforms, will put her in disadvantage, and unlike Palutena, Zelda doesn't have an omnidirectional Nair to cover her.

Phantom ledge trapping IS cheese. Cheese only works consistently against anyone with little to no matchup experience, thus a not very viable option. You're right, it's a me problem, because I like characters that allow a higher skill ceiling for me to learn, rather than using the rinse and repeat cheese that is the entire Zelda character. So it has nothing to do with being bad with the character and everything to do with character being bad herself, I've already addressed that. I don't play Zelda because I'm not into cheese, and I'm not into buffing cheese because buffed cheese is what creates over powered characters in a platform fighter. I'm more into the idea of reworking her toolkit to not being cheese.
Alright, you are pretty all over the place. Either she does everything for the player or her moves are very easily gotten around, these are contradictory things. Cheese is what we generally refer moves that are both really easy and incredibly powerful or have some janky attributes(Roller, Gordos, etc), as. A move that can apparently be gotten around so easily, despite being the "easiest ledge trap in the game", isn't "cheese".

Given how you swing between autopilot character and a horrible character that isn't viable, I'm starting to feel you're a disgruntled Link main, getting bodied by a character that you couldn't hack. And you still haven't elaborated as to why she teaches bad habits.

If you want, I'll play you in a favorable matchup for you, on my broken thumb, and beat you. I'll exploit all your bad habits that virtually every Zelda has and punish your whiffs, which will be the majority of your attempts. You'll be missing every Fire, and since I have external methods to recover, I wont be getting cheesed by your phantom. Choice is yours tho. I have open arenas on Friday and Saturday nights, Fridays has long lines but Saturdays is invite open arenas that has a 2 person limit, but you can choose either one, I don't care.
...Or you could just elaborate as to what these bad habits Zelda supposedly teaches are. For how full of yourself you are, I would think you could at least articulate that much. All you've been doing is "it is because I say it is", you haven't given any sort of reasoning or details. Look at the posts that precede yours. Notice how the vast majority of them, go into depth as to why they hold those opinions. Your posts in contrast, expect to know this as common sense, despite nobody serious ever referring to Zelda as an autopilot character, that does all the work for her players. Seriously, either put up or shut up.
 

Haden

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#33
Alright, you are pretty all over the place. Either she does everything for the player or her moves are very easily gotten around, these are contradictory things. Cheese is what we generally refer moves that are both really easy and incredibly powerful or have some janky attributes(Roller, Gordos, etc), as. A move that can apparently be gotten around so easily, despite being the "easiest ledge trap in the game", isn't "cheese".
i think you misunderstand what 'does everything for you' means. it means you don't have to high risk or perform any level of difficult inputs. zeldas ledge traps are the easiest to do because they require no in depth inputs or strict scenarios, you can just set it up. cheese and jank originated in melee terminology, where i come from. cheese is merely a bad option that shouldnt work but did. the other term used for it isnt just jank but also gimmick.

...Or you could just elaborate as to what these bad habits Zelda supposedly teaches are. For how full of yourself you are, I would think you could at least articulate that much. All you've been doing is "it is because I say it is", you haven't given any sort of reasoning or details. Look at the posts that precede yours. Notice how the vast majority of them, go into depth as to why they hold those opinions. Your posts in contrast, expect to know this as common sense, despite nobody serious ever referring to Zelda as an autopilot character, that does all the work for her players. Seriously, either put up or shut up.
i think you should play him so he can upload a video about bad zelda habits. he also did explain you just didnt read it. i understood what he is talking about and didn't ignore it because i dont have zelda bias.
 
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~?~

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#34
i think you should play him so he can upload a video about bad zelda habits. he also did explain you just didnt read it. i understood what he is talking about and didn't ignore it because i dont have zelda bias.
I think they pretty much already made it clear that they wont. He doesn't realize that my most common match up is against Zelda and Megaman, nor does he settle with the fact that she used to be my main. Virtually every Zelda I play (except for casuals) have the same bad habits (casuals excluded because their entire core being is a bad habit because they don't know the game yet). He doesn't want to play because he doesn't want me to show him the very same bad habits that I talked about. The same bad habits he keeps asking me to explain but I already have like a dozen times but he ignored them. One of those bad habits was executed regularly in that really bad example he gave me earlier. You know, tossing out fire before going off stage? It's really not viable in almost any scenario, maybe against characters like Little Mac or Yoshi, Falcon or Ganon, but really to be honest, that's about it. Actually, no, you could probably get away with it against casuals and bad players who burn double jumps at the mid point off stage. So I guess you can say it like this, Zelda is more viable the worse the opponent is. There we go. That's perfect description. Zelda is the anti-noob character.
 
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Coolboy

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#36
I think they pretty much already made it clear that they wont. He doesn't realize that my most common match up is against Zelda and Megaman, nor does he settle with the fact that she used to be my main. Virtually every Zelda I play (except for casuals) have the same bad habits (casuals excluded because their entire core being is a bad habit because they don't know the game yet). He doesn't want to play because he doesn't want me to show him the very same bad habits that I talked about. One of those bad habits was executed regularly in that really bad example he gave me earlier. You know, tossing out fire before going off stage? It's really not viable in almost any scenario, maybe against characters like Little Mac or Yoshi, Falcon or Ganon, but really to be honest, that's about it. Actually, no, you could probably get away with it against casuals and bad players who burn double jumps at the mid point off stage. So I guess you can say it like this, Zelda is more viable the worse the opponent is. There we go. That's perfect description. Zelda is the anti-noob character.
i think it's time that you do something about that ego of yours >.>
tbh if you want to talk down on Zelda go make your own thread or something, i don''t see a ''lets talk **** about Zelda'' sentence in the title.
btw you do realize there is alot of bad things that could be said about Link right? but unlike you i don't have such ego ;)
 
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#37
think you misunderstand what 'does everything for you' means. it means you don't have to high risk or perform any level of difficult inputs. zeldas ledge traps are the easiest to do because they require no in depth inputs or strict scenarios, you can just set it up. cheese and jank originated in melee terminology, where i come from. cheese is merely a bad option that shouldnt work but did. the other term used for it isnt just jank but also gimmick.
And as I illustrated above, that is patently untrue. "does everything for you" does not mean simple inputs, it means easily beating your opponent. You need to have timing, otherwise your opponent will get around any Phantom ledge traps fairly easily. Too early and your opponent will just wait it out, with their ledge invincibility. Too late and they will just jump over it. You need to have timing and you need to read the 50-50 that comes after that. Those are on the onus of the Zelda player, not something the character can help with.

i think you should play him so he can upload a video about bad zelda habits. he also did explain you just didnt read it. i understood what he is talking about and didn't ignore it because i dont have zelda bias.
He didn't explain ****, he just kept repeating she teaches bad habits and still refuses to elaborate why. You also just admitted earlier that you are a casual and only picked up Zelda to "troll" competitive players. So you'll have to forgive me if I don't take your opinion even remotely seriously. Here's a hint, if you're getting away with spamming Nayru's Love in disadvantage, you're playing bad players.

I think they pretty much already made it clear that they wont. He doesn't realize that my most common match up is against Zelda and Megaman, nor does he settle with the fact that she used to be my main. Virtually every Zelda I play (except for casuals) have the same bad habits (casuals excluded because their entire core being is a bad habit because they don't know the game yet).
Have you ever considered your personal anecdotes, don't reflect the Zelda player base as a whole? You know what with science and statistics and all. That if you did any sort of poking around, including the players I mention earlier getting top 32 in Pound and Prime, that maybe your a little off base here? You seem to have ignored that little bit, that Ven beat Esam and Mysterica beat Seagull Joe twice, 6WX, and ran a close set with Mr. E. All players that should be able to easily punish bad habits.

He doesn't want to play because he doesn't want me to show him the very same bad habits that I talked about.
This might come as a huge shock to you guys, but not everyone as the same lifestyle or schedule as you do. I'm not about to go out of my way to "prove" something you can damn well research yourself. Not that anything would be proved, given I don't represent the entire Zelda player base or that this has any relevance to the discussion at all. You want to play someone, go play Ven or Mystearica.

One of those bad habits was executed regularly in that really bad example he gave me earlier. You know, tossing out fire before going off stage? It's really not viable in almost any scenario, maybe against characters like Little Mac or Yoshi, Falcon or Ganon, but really to be honest, that's about it
You mean the one that successfully setup the edgeguard? That can be used to burn resources? Or you can use Phantom to burn resources, then follow up with Din's Fire? You know, what works, works? Do you honestly think Din's Fire is an inherent bad habit, even when it works or used in the context where it can work? Like lol, I can see why you couldn't hack Zelda.

Still waiting for any real detail as to why she teaches bad habits, that aren't she uses Up-B or Phantom to beat zoners.
 

~?~

The Strangest Link Main
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#38
He didn't explain ****, he just kept repeating she teaches bad habits and still refuses to elaborate why. You also just admitted earlier that you are a casual and only picked up Zelda to "troll" competitive players. So you'll have to forgive me if I don't take your opinion even remotely seriously. Here's a hint, if you're getting away with spamming Nayru's Love in disadvantage, you're playing bad players.
If you're getting away with edge guarding jokers who burn double jumps at mid point off stage and air dodge 10 miles away from the ledge, you're edge guarding bad jokers, but hey, you can use bad examples.

Also, I did explain, multiple times. Again, you didn't even bother to pay attention to it because you have something known as "cognitive bias" about your character. I challenged what you believe to be true, and you rejected that challenge, but I can physically disprove you in a matter of moments simply by playing a set with you. You didn't want that set tho. It's understandable, you don't want to be the primary example, I don't blame you.

Zelda is, and always will be, a bad habit teaching character, all of which were habits I had to erase by playing characters that teach good habits :)

He does troll competitive players with Zelda by the way. Legit. I've been telling him to upload the replays for like 2 weeks now.
He trolls with Zelda in the same fashion I troll with Wario. We jank people with neutrals that make little to no sense. Like walking away slowly from a shielding opponent. Or standing in place while the opponent whiffs 20 aerials over our heads.

i think it's time that you do something about that ego of yours >.>
tbh if you want to talk down on Zelda go make your own thread or something, i don''t see a ''lets talk **** about Zelda'' sentence in the title.
btw you do realize there is alot of bad things that could be said about Link right? but unlike you i don't have such ego ;)
I'm well aware that there are a number of things to say about Link. I brought them up in other threads. For example, how most Links like to toss a boomerang at ledge and then pull a bomb, instead of pulling a bomb and going off stage. I could name quite a few bad habits a lot of Link players exhibit. Every character exhibits a utility that would exaggerate a bad habit or two, but Zelda's entire character is a bad habit machine. That's the difference here. I actually spent a good week training my muscle memory and mental responses on Link to kick the bad Link habits (one of which I mentioned) so that I wasn't doing them anymore. You don't have to tell me anything new because there isn't anything new that I don't already know about the character. There are times I actually play Link and don't use a single projectile the entire match for the sake of training my hand to hand neutral and edge guarding.

Do you want to be the one putting 'my ego' into check? You can cover that set I offered to stoic since he doesn't want to be the example. I can show you exactly why Zelda doesn't need buffs and needs redesigning all together in a heartbeat, unless you just want a video of my replays, where I am parrying teleports, blocking phantoms on ledge get up and parrying the up smash coverage at roll distance? I say Zelda is a bad habit machine because as time goes by, her cheese setups become more and more inconsistent, which is why those 'top results' that were brought up earlier don't matter, because they aren't consistent results because Zelda habits are Zelda habits and people have pretty much figured them out.

Anyways, if you're down for the set, let me know and we can either schedule it for Friday or Saturday whichever is more convenient for you. My thoughts will however remain the same, that buffing Zelda will either do nothing valuable for her, or break her, and the issue lies with her fundamental lacking toolkits for neutral.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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#39
Okay, after bringing up the f-air and b-air on my last post, here are my inputs on how to improve their hitboxes.

Hitbox Base Damage Knockback Angle BKB KBG Shield Damage
Sweetspot 20 Sakurai Angle 60 80 10
Sourspots 5 Sakurai Angle 20 90 0
The f-air and b-air would be treated equally with their animation length and hitbox attributes. The sweetspot gains a shield damage bonus, and stronger BKB, but as a drawback, its KBG is reduced. Of course, despite the KBG nerf, the sweetspot can KO slightly earlier than before, thanks to the increased knockback dealt (courtesy of the BKB buff) at lower damage percentages.

As for the sourspots, they do receive stronger base damage and BKB (at the cost of lower KBG). Starts to KO middleweights when their current damage goes over 350% (assuming that they're positioned at the center of an Omega form stage).
 

~?~

The Strangest Link Main
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#40
Okay, after bringing up the f-air and b-air on my last post, here are my inputs on how to improve their hitboxes.

Hitbox Base Damage Knockback Angle BKB KBG Shield Damage
Sweetspot 20 Sakurai Angle 60 80 10
Sourspots 5 Sakurai Angle 20 90 0
The f-air and b-air would be treated equally with their animation length and hitbox attributes. The sweetspot gains a shield damage bonus, and stronger BKB, but as a drawback, its KBG is reduced. Of course, despite the KBG nerf, the sweetspot can KO slightly earlier than before, thanks to the increased knockback dealt (courtesy of the BKB buff) at lower damage percentages.

As for the sourspots, they do receive stronger base damage and BKB (at the cost of lower KBG). Starts to KO middleweights when their current damage goes over 350% (assuming that they're positioned at the center of an Omega form stage).

I'm personally in favor of buffing movement options so she doesn't have to sit in shield or roll as much, or press neutral special.
Why favor the 10 points of shield damage? Just curious.
 
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