Does Squirtle need buffs?

[SoulBoundX]

Squirtle, right now, doesn't seem viable enough to place very high at a major. Some characters just seem obviously better than squirtle. What are some realistic buffs that squirtle could use in your opinion? What is he lacking?

 

[Life]

He's fine. We're just bad.

 

[SoulBoundX]

He's fine. We're just bad.

I agree with the last part. I think every squirtle has leveling up to do. But do you really think he's fine? I play falco and squirtle as my secondary and i feel like he holds me back. I feel like I have to work a lot harder for the win. Worse players than me are harder to beat. I love squirtle though. I love his game design. He's really fun to play, but I feel certain things about him could be better. Idk. I know I need to level up but after watching almost every video of squirtle in existence and playing as him myself and analyzing all his tools, i think he could be better . But, maybe he is fine.

 

[Life]

I agree with the last part. I think every squirtle has leveling up to do. But do you really think he's fine? I play falco and squirtle as my secondary and i feel like he holds me back. I feel like I have to work a lot harder for the win. Worse players than me are harder to beat. I love squirtle though. I love his game design. He's really fun to play, but I feel certain things about him could be better. Idk. I know I need to level up but after watching almost every video of squirtle in existence and playing as him myself and analyzing all his tools, i think he could be better . But, maybe he is fine.

Here's the deal. Falco's been around since 2001. We've had over thirteen years to look at the character and figure out how to play him optimally. We're nowhere close to that for Squirtle--we're the equivalent of the kid who thinks spacies' best throw is dthrow right now.

In other words, you know roughly what a good Falco is supposed to look like. Nobody's seen a good Squirtle yet.

 

[SoulBoundX]

Here's the deal. Falco's been around since 2001. We've had over thirteen years to look at the character and figure out how to play him optimally. We're nowhere close to that for Squirtle--we're the equivalent of the kid who thinks spacies' best throw is dthrow right now.

In other words, you know roughly what a good Falco is supposed to look like. Nobody's seen a good Squirtle yet.

I understand this but i think people might be over using that excuse and second guessing themselves too much when it comes to how good this character is. I think the opposite effect might take place when it comes to squirtle. Instead of squirtle winning more games over time and getting better, i think more people might get use to fighting him and expose how not so great he is. Idk. You're right. It's too early right now. I was just asking , if he was going to receive buffs, what might be something he needs. But I guess I asked too soon.

 

[~Dad~]

I told Strong bad to nerf aquajet lol


edit: let's be real though Squirtman needs a gun

 

[hamyojo]

Movement in neutral, really good combo game, reliable kill options, very few high level players with the character... It's simply impossible to realistically say that Squirtle needs buffs or nerfs at this point. It's really hard to discuss this kind of thing.

 

[SoulBoundX]

I told Strong bad to nerf aquajet lol


edit: let's be real though Squirtman needs a gun

If squirtle had falco's laser that'd be tight.

 

[hamyojo]

If squirtle had falco's laser that'd be tight.

oh my god stop and @ ~Dad~ don't like these kinds of posts please

 

[Burnsy]

Lol yes.

Will he get them? Not a popular enough or understood enough character to be properly buffed.

He's fun in friendlies, tho ;0

 

[didds]

Lol yes.

Will he get them? Not a popular enough or understood enough character to be properly buffed.

He's fun in friendlies, tho ;0

outta curiosity, what would you suggest?

 

[PlateProp]

I told Strong bad to nerf aquajet lol


edit: let's be real though Squirtman needs a gun

I'm gonna slap you across the face the next time I see you

 

[SoulBoundX]

I'm gonna slap you across the face the next time I see you

I actually like the new aqua jet better . Pulling off those aqua jet kills feels so awesome.

 

[PlateProp]

I actually like the new aqua jet better . Pulling off those aqua jet kills feels so awesome.

He's talking about making the current one weaker read better pls

 

[SoulBoundX]

He's talking about making the current one weaker read better pls

Ah. In that case then yes, go ahead and smack him. Squirtle needs that aqua jet kill move.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

I think giving him a better down special and neutral special would be just enough to fill the gap between squirtle and the balanced character norm.

 

[slugmax]

I think giving him a better down special and neutral special would be just enough to fill the gap between squirtle and the balanced character norm.

I don't think you want to go back to ridiculous spike bubble. I've been wondering about falco laser style watergun, but I think it would just be spammed all the time instead of used more advantageously. Not really sure what else watergun would want to be better. I mean, we can always ask for less start-up and end lag, but that's no fun for speculation.

 

[PlateProp]

I don't think you want to go back to ridiculous spike bubble. I've been wondering about falco laser style watergun, but I think it would just be spammed all the time instead of used more advantageously. Not really sure what else watergun would want to be better. I mean, we can always ask for less start-up and end lag, but that's no fun for speculation.

Bubble still semi spikes

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

I don't think you want to go back to ridiculous spike bubble. I've been wondering about falco laser style watergun, but I think it would just be spammed all the time instead of used more advantageously. Not really sure what else watergun would want to be better. I mean, we can always ask for less start-up and end lag, but that's no fun for speculation.

Did he ever have a bubble spike? I have only played PM 3.0 and after.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

Did he ever have a bubble spike? I have only played PM 3.0 and after.

It sent at more of a downward angle in 3.0 I believe. Also WG is fine. I might revert bubble's hitboxes and maybe get rid of the stall though. Ultimately, though, I think Squirtle's fine where he is. He's got good tools, you just need to use them properly.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

It sent at more of a downward angle in 3.0 I believe. Also WG is fine. I might revert bubble's hitboxes and maybe get rid of the stall though. Ultimately, though, I think Squirtle's fine where he is. He's got good tools, you just need to use them properly.

Oh ok, yeah I agree that he should get rid the air stall with the down B as make make it ground cancelable a little easier, but I see some players spamming that move now, and buffing it would just make them use it even more. Personally I don't get why they spam it, but they seem to get something off of it. As for WG I don't think it's a horrible move, it just doesn't seem to fit his fast combo based play style. It just seems out of place, and when I use WG, it just slows down the game and provides no progress. I think a new B that fit squirtle's style would be amazing, but that's just my opinion.

 

[PlateProp]

Oh ok, yeah I agree that he should get rid the air stall with the down B as make make it ground cancelable a little easier, but I see some players spamming that move now, and buffing it would just make them use it even more. Personally I don't get why they spam it, but they seem to get something off of it. As for WG I don't think it's a horrible move, it just doesn't seem to fit his fast combo based play style. It just seems out of place, and when I use WG, it just slows down the game and provides no progress. I think a new B that fit squirtle's style would be amazing, but that's just my opinion.

Removing the stall ****s up alot of the neat follow ups you can get because you follow them while bubbling, and makes retreating bubble horrible. Making bubble have any significantly less endlag/ground cancelable would make the move broken as ****. Air to ground bubble is already pretty ****ing dumb.

WG is an amazing stun tool, you probably just havent learned the applications of it. You can super rar watergun and then grab while they're in stun, or other stupid stuff. Of all Squirtle's moves, water gun is probably the second most move that needs to be be slightly buffed, probably to come out 1-2 frames faster.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Removing the stall ****s up alot of the neat follow ups you can get because you follow them while bubbling, and makes retreating bubble horrible. Making bubble have any significantly less endlag/ground cancelable would make the move broken as ****. Air to ground bubble is already pretty ****ing dumb.

WG is an amazing stun tool, you probably just havent learned the applications of it. You can super rar watergun and then grab while they're in stun, or other stupid stuff. Of all Squirtle's moves, water gun is probably the second most move that needs to be be slightly buffed, probably to come out 1-2 frames faster.

I'll try to incorporate WG into my games and see how that turns out. I also just joined smashboards so I don't know what "super rar" is, could you explain that?

 

[TKD]

Squirtle has a bit of a hard time vs cc and downwards DI because the weak hits on dair don't do much and autocancel downb takes like half a second to set up. Any of these changes would help with that (1 of them would probably be enough btw). All of them together would make him top tier but maybe too strong.

1. Much faster start-up on dair
2. More hitstun on dair's weak hits
3. Downb could stop squirtle's rising momentum (this would probably be too campy/broken though)

Note that any of these changes on dair would make it more like Fox's dair which is a great counter to cc.

The gimmicks are fine but they're of course gimmicky. I wouldn't buff them.

 

[PlateProp]

Squirtle has a bit of a hard time vs cc and downwards DI because the weak hits on dair don't do much and autocancel downb takes like half a second to set up. Any of these changes would help with that (1 of them would probably be enough btw). All of them together would make him top tier but maybe too strong.

1. Much faster start-up on dair
2. More hitstun on dair's weak hits
3. Downb could stop squirtle's rising momentum (this would probably be too campy/broken though)

Note that any of these changes on dair would make it more like Fox's dair which is a great counter to cc.

The gimmicks are fine but they're of course gimmicky. I wouldn't buff them.

1:
dair is frame 9, and is already anti cc
2: No
3: Bubble already does this

 

[TKD]

As a Fox player in Melee I just felt Squirtle had problems with cc but I'll test bubble next time I get a chance to play. Dair -is- anti cc but it's slow and you can't start it whenever you want because a late dair will end in those mediocre weak hits or never come out.

 

[PlateProp]

As a Fox player in Melee I just felt Squirtle had problems with cc but I'll test bubble next time I get a chance to play. Dair -is- anti cc but it's slow and you can't start it whenever you want because a late dair will end in those mediocre weak hits or never come out.

You can l cancel dair into grab at anytime before last hit.

SUCH A BAD MOVE NEEDS MORE HITSTUN/BE FASTER

 

[rosutookami]

Dair is fine. Squirtle doesn't really have cc problems imo. His real problems are his lack of range, lack of moves positive on shield, terrible tech roll, and bad players (me included). All of his aerials are great and have their own uses, dair included. You may just need to work on answering cc, TKD

 

[TKD]

I'll do just fine I haven't played enough PM I guess

Does weak dair really dish out that much hitstun? What you guys are saying means there's at least 8 frames of it and it hasn't felt that way when I've played. If that's confirmed, I'm gonna abuse it (I'll take a look at frame data to compare grab with utilt and dtilt)

Bair and uair are ridiculous, RAR is just OBSCENE, autocancel downb lets him regain neutral very safely... Squirtle has a lot going on for him. I definitely need to play more PM (to develop Squirtle) and try him vs top players before making a better assessment, but things are looking good.

 

[turtlesss]

I was playing against a Diddy Kong on Yoshi's Island. The Diddy was at around 200%, and I down threw him. He barely went anywhere, plus when I down-smashed him at around 60% he was still able to Crouch Cancel it and hit me. Is my game buggy, or was there a nerf that I'm unaware of?

 

[PlateProp]

I'll do just fine I haven't played enough PM I guess

Does weak dair really dish out that much hitstun? What you guys are saying means there's at least 8 frames of it and it hasn't felt that way when I've played. If that's confirmed, I'm gonna abuse it (I'll take a look at frame data to compare grab with utilt and dtilt)

Bair and uair are ridiculous, RAR is just OBSCENE, autocancel downb lets him regain neutral very safely... Squirtle has a lot going on for him. I definitely need to play more PM (to develop Squirtle) and try him vs top players before making a better assessment, but things are looking good.

bubble does not autocancel at all.

I was playing against a Diddy Kong on Yoshi's Island. The Diddy was at around 200%, and I down threw him. He barely went anywhere, plus when I down-smashed him at around 60% he was still able to Crouch Cancel it and hit me. Is my game buggy, or was there a nerf that I'm unaware of?

Dthrow sounds bugged, you can cc between hits of dsmash normally and hit squirtle

 

[Daftatt]

bubble does not autocancel at all.

Dthrow sounds bugged, you can cc between hits of dsmash normally and hit squirtle

Bubble is a special so it cannot auto-cancel, it could Land Cancel like falco's blaster but thank god it does not.

CC is only good if you have a good CC option and lots of characters (falcon, dorf) don't

I'm starting to think that waterfall is straight up broken

Dair is fine. Squirtle doesn't really have cc problems imo. His real problems are his lack of range, lack of moves positive on shield, terrible tech roll, and bad players (me included). All of his aerials are great and have their own uses, dair included. You may just need to work on answering cc, TKD

Lack of range is part of his design, you make up for his lack of range with his extreme mobility. And on many moves like bubble, watergun, bair, d-smash, uair, up-B, he has quite a bit of range.

Lack of moves positive on shield? Most characters don't have those, I think you mean safe on shield, and squirtle does have those, Bair and Nair can be safe on shield when landed at the bottom of the shield. D-tilt is -6 and puts you below a lot of grabs (and D-tilt comes out Frame 3!) I would say it's safe on shield a LOT.

Squirtle's tech roll is bad for a reason, if you don't tech and go into knockdown then hold away many times squirtle can slide rapidly across the stage to the ledge and escape. He is also very difficult to hit or grab (if your movement is up to snuff) so tech chasing is supposed to balance how difficult it is to break neutral on him.