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Does Pac-Man Need Buffs?

Almand

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 20, 2018
Messages
216
I'm biased and want my dude to be good, so I'm obviously gonna say yes.

Personally, I think he needs some speed, safety, combo utility, the usual suspects, but I'd give that all up if one thing was met: mostly kill power. He's a slow guy, his moves are decently quick on startup, but not endlag, and his combos are pretty situational or not exactly true. Lots of strings, sure, but they're usually just setups. And, of course, he lacks lots and lots of strength... None of his aerials are reliable kill moves, and even Key (his #1 kill tool in Smash 4) was nerfed pretty bad. I've had middleweights live a Key past 130% with good DI. All the Fruits' knockback seem to have been nerfed, actually.

Lots of his nerfs, I've gotten used to. I don't particularly miss Fruit Cancel or Z-Drop Regrabbing, since I think Fruit Recycle and the faster charge more than makes up for the loss. Fruits are still great, as expected, but like his other moves, they're a bit slow.

Other things, like Pac having even lower kill power... They hurt, dude. Heavies oftentimes survive till about 200% if I can't get a good hit in, and with how laggy Pac's kill moves are, it's very difficult in a last-stock situation unless you get a cheesy Bell or Key.

I've made a little write-up for what I want changed, but keep in mind that one, it's silly, and two, it's wish-fulfillment. Not gonna happen at all, but hey, a man can dream. The changes to Jab and Down Throw, for example, are just me ranting and raving about stuff I think would be cool to see. Here it is!

Now that we know Patch Notes are live and... Still need work, but exist, what would you guys want to see?
 
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MamaLuigi123456

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,400
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Realm 75731
Right now :ultpacman:'s biggest weakness is a lack of ways to reliably KO. He has no problem with racking up the damage, but aside from Key, smash attacks, and a knocked-away Fire Hydrant, none of his moves deal sufficient knockback. Because of this, he usually needs to edgeguard opponents to score a KO... which is risky since he doesn't have a lot of reliable options. Fire Hydrant sends opponents upward, his aerials are weak except for arguably back aerial, and while some Bonus Fruits are good tools, they're situational since it requires PAC-MAN to have one in store. His smash attacks are really the only reliable means of KOing opponents, but they're slow on startup and easily punishable on whiff, especially forward smash. And the aforementioned Key and Fire Hydrant are situational.

Other weaknesses of his include his pretty sluggish mobility overall, which spells trouble against faster characters. His combo game isn't exactly reliable either; he can get a few strings here or there, but PAC-MAN is just too slow to reliably follow up. PAC-MAN also suffers in that he doesn't really have any attacks he can just throw out. Since he needs to always read the opponent and punish them, he doesn't have a lot of tools to keep in the advantage state. Lastly, Bonus Fruit overall doesn't deal a lot of damage or knockback, making most of the fruits useless in some cases.

If PAC-MAN is to receive any buffs, he needs some reliable KO moves. Boosting the power of back aerial would help tremendously, and boosting the attack power of Bonus Fruit overall would make it more useful for spacing. His smash attacks could also stand to have their startup lag cut to make them faster, as well as endlag to make them less punishable. He also needs overall better mobility to keep up the pace with quicker fighters and combo more reliably.

That's my take on it anyway.
 

NotMegaMan

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
10
Location
U.S.A
NNID
Sickspinda
Pac-man plays the run-away game, so it isn't a problem to have to cycle through the fruits; the bell helps ensure that you can hit smash attacks, and throwing fruit feels like low frame usage. So i'd argue that that is the best KO move for a large amount of MUs.
I'd argue that Pac doesn't have any issues, giving him more KO options might put him over the edge because of how well he can rack up damage and his god-like recovery. So it is just balance
 

xzx

Smash Lord
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,139
Location
Sweden
What I wanna see the most is less endlag to many of his moves, in particularly his grab, smash attacks, up-air, dair and bair. He has unnecessarily high endlag to most of his moves. And I'm still surprised that his bair and up-air didn't got faster startup. They're frame 9, but it would've been amazing if they were frame 7.
 

ILOVESMASH

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
Messages
590
NNID
Marioman123450
3DS FC
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I decided the pick up Pac-Man after hearing about how "broken" his moveset is and I gotta say that I don't think the character needs any buffs, aside from MAYBE a bit more range on grab, but even this isn't necessary since his grab straight up eats spotdodges.

His aerials and tilts are insane in utility, with Fair and F-tilt in particular being on par with some of the best characters in the game. They pack a ton of range and have very little lag, letting Pacman just spam them on some character's shields without them being able to punish it. I feel these two moves in particular let Pacman just wall out most characters in the game with less range than him.

His kill power is kind of lacking, I do agree, but I feel his edgeguarding makes up for it, since Fair's hitbox is pretty big and its low-knockback actually helps it gimp some of the weaker recoveries, like Wario's and Ganondorf's. His Smash's aren't too bad either if you are able to get a read, and his back throw can normally kill most characters on the ledge between 120-180% depending on weight. I haven't been extensively using fruit, but I have seen some creative fruit traps, like Up-Throw -> Melon and using orange to edgeguarding recoveries.
 

Almand

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 20, 2018
Messages
216
Now that I've gotten over my "Pac-Man sucks!!!" phase and actually recognize him as a potential upper-mid or even high-tier, I'm gonna add one last post here!

With 3.0.0 coming out... Hopefully soon, I do hope Pac gets buffed, but not quite as much as I originally put back there. Some things, I think are pretty reasonable, while others are reaching. So I'll separate those.

So what's wrong with Pac-Man? Not much, on paper. His normals are, for the most part, decent. Jab is quick, F-Tilt is a good poke, Up and Down Tilt could use some work, but they're not bad. His smashes are strong (F-Smash, I swear, is absurd sometimes), but laggy. His aerials are amazing (I personally believe his Fair is potentially the best Forward Air in the game), with the exception of maybe Up Air, and at times, Bair. They're slow (both frame 9), Up Air can be used to combo, but I feel it has Lucas syndrome. As in, it's only deemed good because it has combos, namely Up Throw to Up Air. In a vacuum, it has some strong flaws, especially when compared to other ones like Mario, ZSS, Falcon, Squirtle, you get the idea. Doesn't kill, doesn't link into itself reliably, though at least it has a long-lasting hitbox. Bair, conversely, is Pac's "kill aerial." But it has honestly little knockback, being close to Mario (who's Bair is more of a combo tool than anything) in raw kill power. Combined with some trickily high ending and landing lag, it's a big mystery why it was designed this way. And, of course, his specials are among the most oppressive this game offers. Fruits are versatile, so is Hydrant, Pellet is very strong, and combined with Pac-Jump, gives him one of the best recoveries in Smash.

That begs the question, though, what can't he do? Well, kill, and deal with pressure. His kill options, save tricks and traps, are lackluster. Bair kills around 170% from middle-stage with good DI, Key at around 150%. Cheesy Dair kills work great, Fair gimps amazingly, Bell to Smashes are fantastic, but when you take those away or are fighting a slippery, safe-recovery character, what do you get? A Pichu at 190% spamming F-Tilts and Thunders at you; a mythical creature that shouldn't exist unless you play Sheik. As for pressure, all of his Specials are purposeful double-edged swords. Fruit can be stolen, Pellet can be broken, Pac-Jump can be broken and stolen, and Hydrant can both push you away and be launched by your opponent. If you're against someone speedy who manages to grab your Fruit, you're fighting an uphill battle to both get it back and deal with not having a large majority of your playstyle. Pac-Man simply can't chase well enough to lock them down, and while his normals are good, they can't do much if not combined with his Specials. The game turns into a "catch me if you can" fest, with your opponent running circles around you while tacking on damage here and there. And zoning characters... Just try to chase down a Samus, Snake, even a Mii Gunner who knows what they're doing. A fakeout Key or Hydrant only works so many times before they just start shielding it. I have nightmares about Dark Samuses holding my Key with a full Charge Shot while laying bombs and Missiles everywhere. For a Zoning character, Pac tends to struggle against those of his ilk.

With that in mind, I have what I think are the "necessary" buffs. I don't think these would make Pac broken, per se, but would massively improve his game plan:

Run Speed: 1.672 -> 1.79.
Initial Dash: 1.87 -> 1.98.
Air Speed: 1.092 -> 1.208.
Dash Attack: Startup 10, 19, 28, 37 -> 8, 15, 21, 26. FAF 46 -> 35.
Down Tilt: Angle 45° -> 76°, FAF 27 -> 23.
Back Air: Damage 11.8% -> 12.8% with a slight knockback increase (Kills Mario from mid-FD with no DI around 140%, from 157%).
F-Smash: FAF 53 -> 46.
Up Smash: FAF 50 -> 40, 2nd hit Damage 14% -> 12% with knockback not compensated.
Down Smash: FAF 55 -> 48.

And there we go. Pac-Man is faster to chase opponents better (and for followups, of course), Dash Attack is more of a quick burst option (but still doesn't kill or combo), Down Tilt is a combo tilt (and restores some Hydrant utility lost from the old Up Tilt), Bair is stronger, and all Smashes are much faster (Up Smash, in particular, is close to Smash 4's old endlag. It used to have an FAF of 38, among the very fastest in the game. This retraction is at the cost of power, though). Overall, he's much safer and kills easier, but still struggles in certain matchups, and suffers from double-edged Specials. This might bump Pac up a few spots on the tier list, but I don't think it would break him at all. Just make him a bit scarier since he can make better use of his tools, pressure opponents more safely, and actually kill reliably without having to pray an errant Bell or Smash seals the deal.


Which brings me to the changes where I'm just reaching too far, even for my liking. I want these, sure, but I think they'd break Pac a little bit.

F-Tilt: Damage split into two hitboxes. Foot deals 10%, Leg deals 7%, neither with compensated knockback. FAF 31 -> 28.
F-Smash: Damage 16%/15% -> 17%/15.5% with knockback not compensated.
Down Smash: Startup 15 -> 13, Damage 13% -> 15% with knockback not compensated.
Fair: Active 5-8 -> 4-7, FAF 26 -> 23, landing lag 10 -> 6.
Up Air: Active 9-16 -> 7-14, FAF 37 -> 33, landing lag 10 -> 8. HOWEVER, there would be an added hitbox on frame 15-16 that spikes (about Ness' Dair
strength.) Just for silly stuff and gimps, similar to the spike hitbox on Wii Fit's Fair.
Dair: FAF 50 -> 44, Angle ~45° -> 35°.
Trampoline: Landing lag is now based on the last-used trampoline. Initial, Jumping on Blue, Jumping on Yellow, and Jumping on Red were all 30, but are now 18, 22, 26, and 30 respectively.

The mad man buffed Fair, I know. Most of these are quality of life changes that I think are a bit too much. F-Tilt is already good as is, but is now even scarier is properly spaced. F-Smash and Down Smash are even stronger kill moves, to be more ridiculous. Fair is even faster, and can combo better into itself or other kill moves. Up Air is a better juggling and landing tool. Dair kills even earlier offstage, semispikes, and can potentially combo into Key. And Trampoline is even safer to put down for stage control. One or two of these might be able to sneak their way into the list up top, but combined with the other buffs, it might be giving the guy a little too much going for him. He'd need some nerfs to balance him out.

That being said, I would be content if Pac stayed the way he was. The only changes I think he desperately needs are a couple cooldown reductions (namely on his Smashes) and a teeny bit more speed (not even as high as what I put there). The rest is icing on the cake. But if I don't get that, eh. He's good, he's fun, and that's all I need. He's my forever main, and I really hope that never changes.
 
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xzx

Smash Lord
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,139
Location
Sweden
His up-smash whiffes sometimes and his dair doesn't connect from a fullhop.

Plz fix, Sakurai.
 

Revibe64

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 3, 2019
Messages
2
If I could fix PacMan...

His Hydrant would gush water 3x's.
His Trampoline would stay out for about 20-30 seconds. (It would be a decent Trap KO)
Put more Super Armor on his Side B pellet.
His Side B pellet heal him when he eats it, besides when it was hit to the ground. (and/or let the pellet heal more damage than 2%)
Fix his Utilt back to the first one, because that hit box is so poor.
Make his Trampoline come out at frame 1 again (because I love that option after dash attacking)

But yeah, I think PacMan is really great! Love playing as him.
 
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Wigglerman

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
786
Location
Maine
As a fellow Pac-Attacker, my only wish is his Up-Smash got a little better. It still is his worst smash attack, IMO and struggles to hit anyone with it, even with them right above.

Otherwise Pac feels fine. He's still decent speed wise, his air attacks now are absolutely fantastic compared to last game and puts on a LOT of pressure even when he's forced out of his ranged game (Can cross up with fairs and nairs or continue pressure on shields with down air and often chipping through enough to poke them out of it). Nair can combo lots of characters into other nairs and he chews heavies up for breakfast with nair chains across the stage.

Fruit keep people guessing or putting them in less than favorable states (Jumping when they don't want or having to block). Key is an obvious KO move as is Bell to set up a kill. Back air is the move I find I kill with most often. It's a bit faster than most expect and when combined with drifting you can make it pretty safe. Fish for bairs is something I do a little too much but it tends to work out in the end. Hyrdant is another KO option and is obvious. Especially for those players who get SO FIXATED on it. Just sets themselves up for a quick death.

Up-air is also capable of killing and catches a lot of folk off guard. It comes out pretty quick and can be done a couple times in a single jump to cover air dodges. It's a higher % KO but I use it over Up-Smash all day long because Up-Smash is absolutely terrible, even after the alleged fix in the prior patch.

I can't really think of any buffs to give him that wouldn't make him insufferable. I already get flack for using him to begin with and I don't even play a campy Pac. I use fruits mostly for punishes, edge guards and to stave off too much aggression so I can go on the offensive with his newly invigorated air game.
 
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