Does it have to be CRTs?

[Counterpwnt]

I'm a TV reviewer by trade, and have noticed the severe prevalence of CRT-style TVs at Smash events and tournies. I know the reasoning for this is that CRTs have much less input lag than circa 2003-2006 LCD TVs, but is it really still so notable even against modern gaming monitors and the like? Or is it more of an affordability thing?

I have a 24-inch gaming monitor that I currently don't use, it has a very low response time (2 or 3 ms) and seems like it would be great for something like Smash. It doesn't have component/composite inputs though, only HDMI/VGA/DVI-D. Is there some reason Melee/PM aren't being played on a Wii with an HDMI cable into more modern TVs?

Just curious as to why the TV tech hasn't been updated for these events in so long. Thanks! Seems like one good way to maintain the relevancy and watchability of the events, to me, would be to update the screen size/castability of the matches by utilizing bigger screens.

 

[tauKhan]

Wii doesn't have hdmi output.

 

[Counterpwnt]

Wii doesn't have hdmi output.

YPbPr to HDMI adapters do exist, though.

 

[Keebler]

I believe at this point that it is a tradition thing, as well as a potential cost factor. I can buy a 27in. CRT for $30 whereas a 27in. LCD would cost me $100-$300.

 

[Counterpwnt]

I believe at this point that it is a tradition thing, as well as a potential cost factor. I can buy a 27in. CRT for $30 whereas a 27in. LCD would cost me $100-$300.

True! Where are you finding CRTs at that price, though?

 

[Clocked]

Thrift stores have them for really low prices, I've heard some people looking for them at the dump even. Craigslist isn't a bad place to look.

 

[Redact]

I'm a TV reviewer by trade, and have noticed the severe prevalence of CRT-style TVs at Smash events and tournies. I know the reasoning for this is that CRTs have much less input lag than circa 2003-2006 LCD TVs, but is it really still so notable even against modern gaming monitors and the like? Or is it more of an affordability thing?

I have a 24-inch gaming monitor that I currently don't use, it has a very low response time (2 or 3 ms) and seems like it would be great for something like Smash. It doesn't have component/composite inputs though, only HDMI/VGA/DVI-D. Is there some reason Melee/PM aren't being played on a Wii with an HDMI cable into more modern TVs?

Just curious as to why the TV tech hasn't been updated for these events in so long. Thanks! Seems like one good way to maintain the relevancy and watchability of the events, to me, would be to update the screen size/castability of the matches by utilizing bigger screens.

As someone who claims they are a TV reviewer by trade, I'm a little bit surprised at your lack of knowledge.

Firstly response time is not the only factor in input lag. Input lag can be created by a few things, and in the case of gamecubes/wii's it is created usually by the time it takes for the monitor to upscale the output of the gamecube/wii (480p I believe) to the native resolution to the monitor.

There are alternatives to lower the lag caused by upscaling the image (such as avermedia products) but these are expensive when used in tandem with an also expensive monitor in comparison to a CRT. You're lookng at $200+ for one setup of avermedia + LCD compared to the fact you can get crt's for $0 at hard rubbish or for very little at shops.

The fact that big events already run on splitter cables into projectors and stream setups means that really the change from LCD to CRT will only benefit the people super close to the monitor, the players themselved, and the people dealing with the setup/logistics of the events. These "benefits" are questionable too as its much harder to get a non laggy LCD setup in full in comparison to just a CRT, the fact that this equipment costs so much more thus large scale events can be issues cost wise, and ontop of that as well there are players who would still prefer a CRT over LCD even with the correct setup.

Last thing is even though these "gaming monitors" are touted to be for gamers, when it comes to games that dont need high resolutions, CRT monitors are considered to be better in terms of straight performance as you see some high end quake players using CRT's at lans even on PCs.

 

[kys]

Yes, 2 or 3 ms of lag matters. I don't mean to sound elitist, but if you get good enough at melee or any smash game you'll understand.

There's no such thing as negligible input lag.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@ kys :
The game runs at 60 frames per second as far as I know. So, that's 0.01666 seconds per frame. This is only 16.7 milliseconds per frame. I do not see how 2-3 ms of lag matters when this scale is much smaller than how quickly the game updates. However, I expect there is probably more stuff at work in factoring in the total lag that lasts longer than 16.7 ms.

@TopiC:
Overall, CRTs are merely simple solutions for the average smash tournament. Its not very useful when it comes to saving space, but it is an option to running cheap tournaments. Especially since I can find like a 17-20 inch CRT at really any local store that sells used stuff for about 10-30 dollars. I bet there are TVs out there which are perfectly fine for smash tournaments, but no one has really tested it out. Plus, there is a bit of a stigma towards anything not CRT. Anytime I go to a tournament, people see a screen and instantly avoid it without even trying to play on it.

 

[Keebler]

@ kys :
The game runs at 60 frames per second as far as I know. So, that's 0.01666 seconds per frame. This is only 16.7 milliseconds per frame. I do not see how 2-3 ms of lag matters when this scale is much smaller than how quickly the game updates. However, I expect there is probably more stuff at work in factoring in the total lag that lasts longer than 16.7 ms.

@TopiC:
Overall, CRTs are merely simple solutions for the average smash tournament. Its not very useful when it comes to saving space, but it is an option to running cheap tournaments. Especially since I can find like a 17-20 inch CRT at really any local store that sells used stuff for about 10-30 dollars. I bet there are TVs out there which are perfectly fine for smash tournaments, but no one has really tested it out. Plus, there is a bit of a stigma towards anything not CRT. Anytime I go to a tournament, people see a screen and instantly avoid it without even trying to play on it.

I think it ties back into the whole "tradition" idea. CRT is Smash, and Smash is CRT, and that's just how it is.

 

[smashmachine]

I think it ties back into the whole "tradition" idea. CRT is Smash, and Smash is CRT, and that's just how it is.

nah, I think for SSB4 it'll finally transition, at least for major events

 

[Keebler]

nah, I think for SSB4 it'll finally transition, at least for major events

Meh, can we even count in SSB4 being competitive or good?

 

[WindMajor]

Smashers have a phobia for LCD/LED TVs, and the reason why we stick with CRTs is so that we don't have to deal with breaking any taboos.

I say this from experience, I have a Samsung LED with a very low response time. I use it to speed run SM64 and I don't notice any lag. I use it in Smashfests with casual friends of mine and they don't notice anything, even when I try to point it out to them. I've been bringing my TV to tournaments since 2012 and it's only NOW in 2014 that people are complaining about lag. I've explained to people mathematically that the amount of lag they're experiencing is negligible, and I also say that we've been using this TV for tournaments since 2012 but instead of putting their faith in me and my mathematics, they put faith in their fears instead, and then they tell the TO that they don't want to use my TV because of lag.

My TV got reduced to a friendlies-only setup, which is stupid because nobody even blames the lag for anything when they play friendlies.

 

[Counterpwnt]

As someone who claims they are a TV reviewer by trade, I'm a little bit surprised at your lack of knowledge.

Really, dude? You didn't consider that maybe I posed it as an unbiased prompt to gauge community opinions/responses without tossing a bunch of technical jargon in the way? Assumptions, man. For the record, I understand plenty and more about input lag, response time, refresh rates, backlight shuttering, frame interpolation options, rez upscaling, different types of thin-film transistor panels, and what exactly differentiates CRTs from LCDs on the technical/mechanical side.

There are new display options on the way for all of these things. LightBoost, G Sync, etc. Heck, you can even get HDMI cables that upscale for you. My main point here is that, eventually, the Smash community is going to have to upgrade if it wants a larger following. People want pretty pictures—it's sad but true.

So, I can see why CRTs have been the go-to in the past, but there are a growing number of options. I really wanted to know if they're held onto for a pure objective performance reason, or for some kind of elitism, or because TOs simply couldn't afford the equipment changeover when streaming/broadcasting to a projector setup. It could be done, but it won't be probably until OLED displays become affordable.

Yet the fact remains that there are plenty of TN-panel monitors that could stand in just fine for any kind of Smash, but they can't be adopted en masse despite the fact that 1-3ms of lag is something anyone and everyone can adjust to. Elitists will and do claim to experience lag, but at some point trace amounts are just psychosomatic. Yet it's clear from some of these responses that the same mentality that prompts a diehard following also prompts some desire to stick with CRTs. It makes us different, ipso facto it makes us better. All I wanted to know.

For the record, though, I imagine SSB4 will be played over HDMI into 1920x1080 TN-TFT monitors, which will be about $100 by the time the scene gets going.

 

[tauKhan]

@ Counterpwnt I guess the biggest problem is that as smash events are grassroot type, so often most of the setups are supplied by the competitors. Thus the screens won't be standard, and as most lcd:s still have postprocessing that can't be turned off, it's kinda difficult to trust lcds, since even little lag can affect gameplay but not be easy to recognize. Like everyone should study the list of models that are known to have no lag.

Though leffen, who is a top player, uses lcd when streaming practice, and he prefers it because of clearer image, so maybe things can change.

Since you are expert, how much time does it take converting analog signal to digital? Like doesn't YPbPr to HDMI adapters add lag?

 

[Counterpwnt]

@ Counterpwnt I guess the biggest problem is that as smash events are grassroot type, so often most of the setups are supplied by the competitors. Thus the screens won't be standard, and as most lcd:s still have postprocessing that can't be turned off, it's kinda difficult to trust lcds, since even little lag can affect gameplay but not be easy to recognize. Like everyone should study the list of models that are known to have no lag.

Though leffen, who is a top player, uses lcd when streaming practice, and he prefers it because of clearer image, so maybe things can change.

Since you are expert, how much time does it take converting analog signal to digital? Like doesn't YPbPr to HDMI adapters add lag?

Yes. While YPbPr to HDMI adapters do exist, they're not necessarily the best option if you're looking to signal convert. However, you'd be hard pressed to find even 2014 monitors (not TVs) that don't have a VGA input, which is still an analog input type. As for composite (Gcube/Wii) to VGA adapters and input lag, you want to make sure the resolution is set to "native" (i.e. not being messed with) and that the monitor isn't doing some kind of dynamic backlight adjustment or boosting colors. Things like high contrast and saturated colors can affect response time, too, which is why if you were going to jump from a CRT you'd want: a TN-panel monitor probably no more than 24 inches, lowest rez possible, low response time, with video (Y) cable running to a VGA adapter at native resolution. To be safe, you'd probably be better off connecting the audio parts (red, white) to a separate speaker setup, though you might have some audio lag as well.

Really the whole setup would depend on the quality of the composite to VGA converter, which I admit I don't have enough experience with different kinds to comment on the best/worst ones available—however, I'm looking into that currently (more as a side project thing). Assuming you had a monitor with a 1ms response time with no post-processing effects (most modern gaming monitors allow you to toggle these things now), lower the backlight to CRT levels and basically lower contrast as much as you can stand, the difference between that setup and a CRT would be negligible, though frankly it still might not be ideal for the highest level competitive play. I am working on a setup now myself and will post my findings.

 

[Counterpwnt]

This is actually a great resource explaining how/why input lag occurs and how the GCube/Wii can be optimized for a non-CRT display if necessary: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/wiki/lag

 

[tauKhan]

Are you sure that using VGA input of monitor would be the best solution? The monitor will then have to convert the signal to digital, as lcds can't display analog, so wouldn't independent conversion be better?

The article was nice except that having lag really does reduce reaction windows for things that aren't interactive, like sheik's techchase.

 

[Counterpwnt]

Are you sure that using VGA input of monitor would be the best solution? The monitor will then have to convert the signal to digital, as lcds can't display analog, so wouldn't independent conversion be better?

The article was nice except that having lag really does reduce reaction windows for things that aren't interactive, like sheik's techchase.

The lag does come from the monitor doing the conversion, you're right. Ideally, the converter will do the conversion processing, but whether it does the downsampling/upconversion or the monitor does is kind of a crapshoot (i.e. I don't think the resources exist to identify such a thing). Hence my personal goal to test the composite/VGA adapters. I don't think any kind of conversion process is better than not converting, but the next best solution (past CRTs) would be plasma TVs with composite inputs, and you'd be hard-pressed to find those in the next 5 years.

 

[dudeacockus]

Wow, not to sound like a douche or an elitist but, it seems none of you know what you're actually talking about and have done any real extensive research into the subject matter. You can't see/feel 2-3 ms it's not possible. There are so many discussions and points about this on MIOM and facebook, get wrecked.

Anyway, I'll just explain most of the misunderstandings and the lies you've been fed. Response time has very little to do with the lag that gamers speak of. Response time is the time it takes for the pixels to turn from black to white to gray. So this only really has anything to do with how fast the pixels change which in turn only has anything to do with the effect of ghosting. Ghosting is when you see tearing or blurring of the pixels due to them having to process changing to a different color due to motion. So it's kind of like motion blur.

This is not the lag everyone is talking about. It's input lag that affects gamers heavily. When you input something on to your console, it has to send that signal to your TV. This has to do with signaling/modulation (digital vs analog situation). First off, analog has either no or very little lag due to the fact that it does not have to process that it received a signal to output it while digital, it has to go through and process out each pixel/image and know that it received a change in the image due to an input being sent. That input has to be acknowledged and processed and then outputted.

Input lag is not advertised due to it being only important to only such a small consumer base so they don't ever advertise it. It's also different at different refresh rates and different motion smoothing processing bs that they use nowadays with the LED LCD TVs. Input lag on LCDs occurs for multiple reasons, the native input lag a monitor/tv has (all LCDs have input lag due to processing the image/input), whether the image is outputted at native resolution or a different resolution, and what signal is being used to output the image.

To put in perspective to Smash, the reason why we use CRTs is because there is virtually no input lag. The reason why lag is bad for Smash and why people complain about is due to many reasons.

1. LCD monitors have at best about 10-15ms input lag, a frame is 16.67ms. Inputs will be processed less than a frame late. This is not an issue whatsoever but, that's how much the best monitors have. An average LCD HDTV/Plasma has anywhere from 20ms-100+ms natively. That's more than a frame so imainge your inputs coming out/being recognized 2+ frames late. You'll be timing things off, and it's not like spamming is an option in melee, especially with strict timing windows for general tech. NOTE: Native input lag is not the actual input lag (it's wayyyy more) you would receive in Smash.

2. Smash is not natively an HD game, meaning it's outputted natively at 640x480 while an LCD TV/MONITOR on average outputs natively at 1920x1080. Upscaling and downscaling (or any non native res) will cause more processing to occur. So imagine, you can end up getting about 50+ms of input lag due to all the processing the TV is doing to display the image.

3. Gamecube/Wii uses analog signaling on default. 480i is an analog signal/resolution and that's the default that these consoles have. While they do have component cables, they are not cheap or easy to find anymore, so that analog to digital processing also adds more input lag.

So if you're playing Smash on an LCD TV/Monitor via composite, you'll be receiving noticable input lag due to image processing, signal conversion, and upscaling. Having to try and execute technical things, even just SHFFLing at the fastest possible rate, you'll be having to press frames earlier than you're supposed to which, technically is not possible because it takes time for the TV to process that input anyway. So no matter what LCDs have lag. Remember, response time has very little to do with this.


Although, there are ways around all this with hardware accelerators as mentioned above, Avermedia LGPs which allow very fast signal conversion from analog to digital. People from the Smash community have done extensive testing and have come to the conclusion that you can get lower than 1 frame of lag which is said to be impossible to actually noticce due to the human reaction time only being so fast.

 

[tauKhan]

People from the Smash community have done extensive testing and have come to the conclusion that you can get lower than 1 frame of lag which is said to be impossible to actually noticce due to the human reaction time only being so fast.

Detecting input lag has nothing to do with reaction times. You can detect relative input lag differences by comparing the timing of inputs you make to the visual cue. For example, if one lcd has total lag of 4 frames while a crt is 0, you can tell the lcds is slower, because you have to input l-cancels pretty high in the air compared to the crts or that if you do wd, the wd will happen on the screen later. But 4 frames is a lot less than human reaction time. Lag messes up techskill that is based on visual cue, like wavelanding etc. Shffling isn't affected at all, except for the l-canceling part.

Also even 1 frame of lag has an effect on the game, even if you cannot tell the tv lags. In melee there is many situations, where your reaction window is just above your normal reaction time. If you react in 15 frames to visual cue, and have 20 frames window for action, the 1 frame of input lag is very significant. To clarify my point, I mean that it's not important whether you know or not that the lag messes you up.

Thanks for the enlightening response.

Edit: I actually found an example that pretty much answer this threads question:
Fox's uair pretty much kills puff at high percents if you don't sdi it. The puff has a 4 frame window for that sdi input which is made solely on visual cue, so if the tv which the puff plays on has lag that differs even half a frame from the the tv he practices on, he could miss the timing on the sdi and lose a stock because of the tv. This is a situation which occurs pretty much every game involving a fox and a floatie. So we need a precise input lag standard.

 

[LinklightTV jr]

As someone who claims they are a TV reviewer by trade, I'm a little bit surprised at your lack of knowledge.

Firstly response time is not the only factor in input lag. Input lag can be created by a few things, and in the case of gamecubes/wii's it is created usually by the time it takes for the monitor to upscale the output of the gamecube/wii (480p I believe) to the native resolution to the monitor.

There are alternatives to lower the lag caused by upscaling the image (such as avermedia products) but these are expensive when used in tandem with an also expensive monitor in comparison to a CRT. You're lookng at $200+ for one setup of avermedia + LCD compared to the fact you can get crt's for $0 at hard rubbish or for very little at shops.

The fact that big events already run on splitter cables into projectors and stream setups means that really the change from LCD to CRT will only benefit the people super close to the monitor, the players themselved, and the people dealing with the setup/logistics of the events. These "benefits" are questionable too as its much harder to get a non laggy LCD setup in full in comparison to just a CRT, the fact that this equipment costs so much more thus large scale events can be issues cost wise, and ontop of that as well there are players who would still prefer a CRT over LCD even with the correct setup.

Last thing is even though these "gaming monitors" are touted to be for gamers, when it comes to games that dont need high resolutions, CRT monitors are considered to be better in terms of straight performance as you see some high end quake players using CRT's at lans even on PCs.

Is 10ms fine