Does anybody think the current melee tier list from 2013 is outdated?

[keymanb]

Take a look if you need so.

I think it's a bit outdated and that it needs an update. Luigi for example should be higher, a lot of players at tournaments use him more. Dr. Mario I think should be lowered. I think Ganondorf deserves a high tier in A, possibly even S. He's getting very popular, Peach should be lowered as even armada doesn't play her now. (Falco should be higher than fox, just my opinion, don't throw stuff at me ;3) Anyways, if you think some characters deserves buffs or nerfs on the tier list, please say and say who and where should they be placed?

 

[Cool]

It's going to be updated.

 

[Mikkelmann]

I think we should get a 2015 tier list. But IMO the top 8 is done we don't really have to change that anymore. But i think Mid tiers should be changed. (DK pls)

 

[pershona]

"Peach should be lower as even Armada doesn't play her now"
He still uses Peach, and won INY GF's with her, and same thing with MVG Sandstorm.
Ganon is honestly too slow to be S or High A, way too many bad MU's against top tiers.
Main things that should be changed about the list imo is Yoshi into A, Pikachu above Doc, probably Samus too.

 

[Cool]

I agree, top 8 is fine.

 

[TheCandyman]

Marth should probably be moved to 2 or 3 but that's all to change out of the top 8. Luigi, Yoshi, and Pika need to be a bit higher because Axe is still amazing Luigi has picked up the pace a bit and Yoshi has aMSa

 

[Spazzy]

Samus should replace Doc.

 

[kingPiano]

The only changes that would ever happen as a consensus would still be confined within each tier, so in the end it wouldn't really matter. The only possible tier jump I personally could rationalize is Pikachu going from A tier to bottom of S tier.

Doc should be right above Mario

Luigi should be move up

Ganondorf and DK are pretty much exactly where they belong. Placement doesn't change just based on popularity.

Yoshi will never be A tier, he has way too many disadvantages and wins largely based on MU unfamiliarity

Kirby should be above Bowser and Pichu, anyone who has played all three characters at a high level knows this as fact. Triple R places him above Zelda, Ness, Bowser and Pichu........Leffen places him above Zelda, Bowser, and Pichu. Ness for me is hard to place; powerful attacks, throws, and useful tech but a crippling recovery I still don't think it would be easy to say Kirby is better. The same goes for Zelda I think all three exist at about the same spot, Kirby has seen better results and I feel he has an easier time with high tiers (in my personal experience and seeing others). As far as the MU between them there is a vid of Triple R beating The Lake @ The Big House 4, and Ness gets absolutely destroyed by Kirby.

Right now I'm playing a ton of Kirby, so my feeling that Kirby might be able to jump to bottom of B tier is probably biased. I'll give that time to settle and see what my thoughts are in the future. It's not a crazy thought though considering 2 very seasoned pro players that have actually played him at high level put him above a character like Zelda who is in the middle of B tier right now.


.

 

[keymanb]

"Peach should be lower as even Armada doesn't play her now"
He still uses Peach, and won INY GF's with her, and same thing with MVG Sandstorm.
Ganon is honestly too slow to be S or High A, way too many bad MU's against top tiers.
Main things that should be changed about the list imo is Yoshi into A, Pikachu above Doc, probably Samus too.

Armada yes still uses peach, but actually less than formerly. I'm not saying he never ever uses peach, but as it is she get's less popular.

 

[keymanb]

"Peach should be lower as even Armada doesn't play her now"
He still uses Peach, and won INY GF's with her, and same thing with MVG Sandstorm.
Ganon is honestly too slow to be S or High A, way too many bad MU's against top tiers.
Main things that should be changed about the list imo is Yoshi into A, Pikachu above Doc, probably Samus too.

And, everyone knows ganon is slow cpt. Obvious ;3 But he trades speed for power, and does speed honestly produce such an importance to a characters skill? Stages aren't even that long, it isn't a race. Sure, air speed yes. And it does matter, but strength is important too, so don't count him out because he is slow, he isn't A tier just because he is a slower and power=captain falcon clone. Otherwise, he might as well just be worse than bowser.

 

[The Soap]

does speed honestly produce such an importance to a characters skill?

Yes.

 

[kingPiano]

Armada yes still uses peach, but actually less than formerly. I'm not saying he never ever uses peach, but as it is she get's less popular.

You are making the mistake of thinking that tier lists are a popularity contest. If no one decided to play Ice Climbers anymore they'd still be top 8.

And, everyone knows ganon is slow cpt. Obvious ;3 But he trades speed for power, and does speed honestly produce such an importance to a characters skill? Stages aren't even that long, it isn't a race. Sure, air speed yes. And it does matter, but strength is important too, so don't count him out because he is slow, he isn't A tier just because he is a slower and power=captain falcon clone. Otherwise, he might as well just be worse than bowser.

Don't understand why in the world you double posted responding to the same exact message. Yes speed is very important in Melee. Ganondorf will NEVER be s tier; he's too slow, his moves are too slow, he's too big of a target, he's too easy to combo, he's too easy to gimp because his recovery is horrendous.

 

[keymanb]

You are making the mistake of thinking that tier lists are a popularity contest. If no one decided to play Ice Climbers anymore they'd still be top 8.



Don't understand why in the world you double posted responding to the same exact message. Yes speed is very important in Melee. Ganondorf will NEVER be s tier; he's too slow, his moves are too slow, he's too big of a target, he's too easy to combo, he's too easy to gimp because his recovery is horrendous.

That's how the metagame works though. Ken hoang legit, with a single hand. Made marth the 4th on the tier list, soon after, more players follow. It's who get's good with the character first that decides a big outcome, in most cases.

 

[pershona]

I'm not counting him out just because he's slow. While i think he's still good,probably low-mid A he just doesn't have have the tools to get to High A or S.

 

[keymanb]

I'm not counting him out just because he's slow. While i think he's still good,probably low-mid A he just doesn't have have the tools to get to High A or S.

Agreeable, I never wanted a debate. Just some opinions.

You are making the mistake of thinking that tier lists are a popularity contest. If no one decided to play Ice Climbers anymore they'd still be top 8.



Don't understand why in the world you double posted responding to the same exact message. Yes speed is very important in Melee. Ganondorf will NEVER be s tier; he's too slow, his moves are too slow, he's too big of a target, he's too easy to combo, he's too easy to gimp because his recovery is horrendous.

And to you of course, scroll down to the melee section and read some of the stuff about Marth, Jigglypuff and others. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Metagame

 

[kingPiano]

That's how the metagame works though. Ken hoang legit, with a single hand. Made marth the 4th on the tier list, soon after, more players follow. It's who get's good with the character first that decides a big outcome, in most cases.

No, that's not how the meta game works.

In fact Ganon's popularity will have the exact opposite on his meta. As he becomes more popular people will get more familiar with the MU and be able to beat the character more efficiently. He doesn't have new tech or untapped potential that will overcome his weaknesses. Fox and Falco stand the test of time because their moves and tech vastly outweigh their glaring weaknesses (not to mention their constantly evolving meta).

I'll save us both the trouble and I won't discuss it further since you seem to have convinced yourself to the point of no return. Comparing Ganon's meta to Marth/Jiggly is like comparing Bowser's Meta to Ice Climbers, it doesn't make any sense. Marth was 4th in the very first 2002 list, he was already seen as one of the best characters in the game before Ken.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

The only big change that needs to be made is moving Yoshi up into the A tiers and swapping Pika and Samus with Doc. Aside from that, there are a few small problems in the low tiers but that doesn't really matter.

On the subject of dorf, I would say that he isn't popular at all right now. Most people like to see dorfs play for style or play him as a secondary for fun. But you really don't see a lot of dorfs going far into any brackets and most people are of the opinion that he's an awful character.

 

[keymanb]

No, that's not how the meta game works.

In fact Ganon's popularity will have the exact opposite on his meta. As he becomes more popular people will get more familiar with the MU and be able to beat the character more efficiently. He doesn't have new tech or untapped potential that will overcome his weaknesses. Fox and Falco stand the test of time because their moves and tech vastly outweigh their glaring weaknesses (not to mention their constantly evolving meta).

I'll save us both the trouble and I won't discuss it further since you seem to have convinced yourself to the point of no return. Comparing Ganon's meta to Marth/Jiggly is like comparing Bowser's Meta to Ice Climbers, it doesn't make any sense. Marth was 4th in the very first 2002 list, he was already seen as one of the best characters in the game before Ken.

I'm not. You have enlightened me, I'm not that arrogant, at some times I can be. But thanks for clarifying. I suppose I was thinking too much about project M ganon's background rather than melee. Thanks.

 

[victra♥]

tier list discussion exists here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/2013-community-tier-list.336113