Does a lack of "true combos" hurt Brawl?

[Ghostbone]

To avoid tripping you need to greatly limit your options.
Or you need to accept that you can be randomly screwed over.

Both situations are detrimental to competition.

 

[OkamiBW]

@OkamiBW

Looks like the scrubbies don't know anything about reading, so I'll have to spell it out clearer than Saturday cartoon villains spell out their plans.

Okay folks I understand it's pretty complex:
1:Tripping happens 1 out of 100 dashes right? Right.
2:You can choose to dash whenever you want right? Right.
3:WAIT A SECOND!!!

With 1 and 2 together that means you do have influence over tripping!!! Where's some Phoenix Wright cornered music?!?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq1jknZp0ic

Much better! Now OkamiBW you're going to have to do some fast talking to get outta this one, cause you said that tripping is luck and luck is bad because the players have no control over it! But they do have control >( And since I already know your most logical escape routes I already have a general idea of what I'ma have to say next. LMAO I took up your "argue tripping" offer and it's looking quite grim for you pal... you wanna change topics again yet?

BACKROOM MEMBERS ARE YOU WATCHING?!?!

Except that given that you're dashing, you cannot control when you trip. And, also, no, tripping happens randomly...not 1 out of 100 dashes. If it's exactly 100, then link me a video proving so. Or wait, does this mean...no...you can't possibly be wrong?

 

[Clel]

@ Ghostbone
Already went over that. Walking instead of dashing does not greatly limit your options. Dashing anyway most likely will go without tripping, but if you're REALLY worried that you're going to trip into something horrible, there's ways around it. Especially dash dancing your trip away like I said a couple of posts ago.

@ OkamiBW
Yes, but you can control when you dash and thus can control if the terrible idea of tripping even has a chance to occur.

Now to be a good villain I gotta do some kind of bs plot twist here so lets see... you say it's not 1 out of 100? Hmm, sounds like a desperate attempt to have me be wrong and would've worked BUT PLOT TWIST I'm a hacker folks! That's right, there was the trip modifier code which by default is set to 1% but can be changed to 0% for no tripping. Oh yes 1%, In other words 1 out of 100, in other words DAMN!!!! Don't take it too hard but apparently I cannot be wrong... I'm tempted to claim the sky is green lols.

I'm so amazing at this I'm getting messages from fans - Best villain ever! Resurrected a dieing thread! Hilarious and educational!

 

[The_Smash_Champ]

There is no combos in brawl because brawl isnt a game, its a joke.

 

[OkamiBW]

@OkamiBW-

Yes, but you can control when you dash and thus can control if the terrible idea of tripping even has a chance to occur.

As I said, given that you are dashing, you cannot control when you trip. Looks like someone didn't read.

Spoiler

Now to be a good villain I gotta do some kind of bs plot twist here so lets see... you say

it's not 1 out of 100?

Spoiler

Hmm, sounds like a desperate attempt to have me be wrong and would've worked BUT PLOT TWIST I'm a hacker folks! That's right, there was

the trip modifier code which by default is set to 1% but can be changed to 0% for no tripping. Oh yes 1%, In other words 1 out of 100

Spoiler

, in other words DAMN!!!! Don't take it too hard but apparently I cannot be wrong... I'm tempted to claim the sky is green lols.

I'm so amazing at this I'm getting messages from fans - Best villain ever! Resurrected a dieing thread! Hilarious and educational!

In other words, you did not show any video, nor code. Back up your claim instead of just parading around on your high horse.

Spoiler

I took out everything in your post that was unnecessary, you heavy troll.

In addition, why would you want to limit your options by having tripping in the game?

 

[Ghostbone]

@ Ghostbone
Already went over that. Walking instead of dashing does not greatly limit your options.

Yes it does, dashing is very useful for punishing moves OoS for example

Dashing anyway most likely will go without tripping

But it can still randomly mess you up, which is uncompetitive

but if you're REALLY worried that you're going to trip into something horrible, there's ways around it.

By limiting your options. And less options = less depth

 

[Battousai780]

Tripping is easily fixed with wii hax. Other than that, it happens so sparingly and even more sparingly does it cause you to be screwed over seriously. Also, the lack of true combos is irrelevant. People play Brawl because they find that the game is fun. As for the competitve aspect, the game is as competitive at the human person you're playing against. People just don't like change. Lastly, the Brawl community is TOO GOOD. I just got back from WHOBO III in Houston and everyone there is cool as ****.

 

[OkamiBW]

Tripping is easily fixed with wii hax. Other than that, it happens so sparingly and even more sparingly does it cause you to be screwed over seriously. Also, the lack of true combos is irrelevant. People play Brawl because they find that the game is fun. As for the competitve aspect, the game is as competitive at the human person you're playing against. People just don't like change. Lastly, the Brawl community is TOO GOOD. I just got back from WHOBO III in Houston and everyone there is cool as ****.

That's not always correct. Something like coin flipping (provided there are no techniques to change the outcome of the flip) cannot be made competitive no matter how much the human person you play against and you want.

 

[Clel]

@ OkamiBW

Har har fine, I'll get off my high horse real fast.

Your approach to this isn't effective simply because you're relying on me too much. Get a USB Gecko or whatever they're using nowadays and look it up? Why not learn some hexadecimals real fast so you can put it together for yourself? I don't have video capture to provide proof, so basically you're asking me to post out a hacking lesson and all you're going to do is criticize each and every little thing, that doesn't sound fun for me does it? Heck stepping off my high horse isn't fun =(

Okay, next part. Lets say I go through all the hard work to show you this proof you desire and turns out I'm wrong, it's a 2% chance of tripping so 1 out of 50 dashes cause you to trip, what would you do then? Spout "CLEL WAS WRONG" for two seconds? I mean it was fun passing insults back and fourth but you need to think things through, attacking my facts to crumble the foundation of my logic is much more effective then attacking my facts just to say "hey you were wrong here". You have good passion and will power when it comes to childish arguments haha, just be more cunning and long term with your thinking.

@ Ghostbone

It's like you've went unaffected by what I've been saying all along. Tripping/Luck isn't competitive - true. Dashing > Walking sometimes - true. Less options means less depth - true.

This is checkmate though. Because you say tripping limits more options than it enables, when it doesn't. Tripping if anything forces you to consider other options when otherwise dashing would be just plain obvious. More viable options deepens the experience and thus helps competition. It's so simple to me, I cannot even begin to imagine where the confusion comes from. I don't think I explained it well enough for you to understand since you didn't understand my last couple of attempts apparently but... I dunno what to tell you.

 

[V3ctorMan]

melee! <3

you can't trip at all....

so yeah play melee..

 

[Flonomenalz]

Tripping is easily fixed with wii hax. Other than that, it happens so sparingly and even more sparingly does it cause you to be screwed over seriously. Also, the lack of true combos is irrelevant. People play Brawl because they find that the game is fun. As for the competitve aspect, the game is as competitive at the human person you're playing against. People just don't like change. Lastly, the Brawl community is TOO GOOD. I just got back from WHOBO III in Houston and everyone there is cool as ****.

argument for tripping = hax

argument for lack of combos = call it irrelevant

argument for competitive Brawl = lol its all funsies

argument for community = Brawl community is cool

okay....

Sorry that I don't feel like hacking to resolve a problem that the developers left there. And to say that it rarely causes you to be screwed over is ridiculous. I have not played a single game of Brawl where I did not trip at least 1-2 times. Should I limit my options to jumping around the stage?

How is a lack of combos irrelevant? Fighters are based around combos. Not to say there can't be a good fighter without combos, but Brawl completely fails to become that. The majority of the characters are worthless competitively. 3 stock matches take approximately 5-6 minutes (based on what I've seen and played), which is shorter than most Melee DOUBLES matches. Lack of combos = lack of activitity = detrimental gameplay.

It's not about liking change or not. That is the typical stupid Brawl kid argument. It's about liking the game we are presented with. Brawl gave us a floaty fighter game with little activity and tripping. Nty.

Speaking of communities, the Melee community is toughing it out on it's own 10 YEARS after the game came out. Attendance still reaching in the 300s. Donations for players that can't afford it. I can't wait to see Brawl turnouts in 2020. 4-5 people? Meh, I'm being too generous there.

tl:dr - Melee >>!!>>!!>> Brawl

 

[Ghostbone]

This is checkmate though. Because you say tripping limits more options than it enables, when it doesn't. Tripping if anything forces you to consider other options when otherwise dashing would be just plain obvious. More viable options deepens the experience and thus helps competition. It's so simple to me, I cannot even begin to imagine where the confusion comes from. I don't think I explained it well enough for you to understand since you didn't understand my last couple of attempts apparently but... I dunno what to tell you.

Tripping doesn't enable those options, those options are already there, it simply randomly punishes you for trying out certain options.
You act like walking has no advantages over dashing without tripping, when it definitely does.

 

[Clel]

Tripping doesn't have to enable those options. Here's what I'm saying:

In certain situations dashing would be the obvious choice, but because of tripping dashing is risky, now if you don't want to trip you must consider other options and thus the experience is deeper. Without tripping who cares if the other options work, dashing da bess.

 

[Kanelol]

I'm not sure if you guys have ever heard of something called RNG

It's sort of the bane of competitive gamers

Which is why I don't like tripping

Or Brawl in general

gogogadget Okami

 

[Ghostbone]

In certain situations dashing would be the obvious choice, but because of tripping dashing is risky, now if you don't want to trip you must consider other options and thus the experience is deeper. Without tripping who cares if the other options work, dashing da bess.

So tripping forces you to take lesser options.
Don't see how that makes the game deeper.

 

[Clel]

hahaha, you fail dude. What we've already said renders your point useless. Look it over.

 

[Pierce7d]

Even though there are few "true comboes" as defined by completely inescapable attack strings once the first hit lands, offensive pressure is definitely very, very viable in this game.

 

[MonkUnit]

what about team combos

 

[FIREL]

[Tripping has a very small chance and shouldn't be really taken into consideration when choosing options. I'm pretty sure there are bigger things to worry about anyways. Sure tripping wrecks chain grabs and other stuff but its not the end of the world.

 

[Clel]

Hey! This is a childish argument! We can't pick the obvious way of winning! We gotta toy around and make three paragraphs per post to try and sound smart >(

 

[MonkUnit]

There will never be a definite answer to this. This will just continue to be a circular argument. Why isn't this locked yet?

 

[Pierce7d]

Threads aren't typically made just to arrive at a particular conclusion. We aren't holding counsel, we're having discussion. Since this discussion is relevant to Smash and not tactics, it's in exactly the right place. There's no need to lock the thread, unless people are incapable of discussing the topic at hand. So far, the entire thread has not gotten derailed to that point. If you don't want to participate in this discussion any further, then you can just not post, but there's no point in locking it and forcing other willing participants to cease discussion.

Discussion is the purpose of a forum.

 

[MonkUnit]

Alright then. Thanks for clearing that up. I really wish that the question in the OP was easier to answer lol.

 

[DAS]

^ I agree with you people do have constructive things to say pertaining to this.

As for the combo question it depends on what you want in a game. It doesn't hurt the game imo it just turns certain people away who especially take that part into the biggest consideration in a game. I didn't care when I figured out about there being hardly any combos in Brawl, but love the game because I love Smash Bros and think its fun and considering the whole concept of the game. The tripping is only annoying when it happens to you, but it can save you if they trip up too.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Threads aren't typically made just to arrive at a particular conclusion. We aren't holding counsel, we're having discussion. Since this discussion is relevant to Smash and not tactics, it's in exactly the right place. There's no need to lock the thread, unless people are incapable of discussing the topic at hand. So far, the entire thread has not gotten derailed to that point. If you don't want to participate in this discussion any further, then you can just not post, but there's no point in locking it and forcing other willing participants to cease discussion.

Discussion is the purpose of a forum.

With all the tools jumping in trying to make it Melee vs Brawl, I don't see a point anymore people can discuss it but it's just a mess to go about it.

 

[OkamiBW]

In addition, you have the standard scrub who will come in and say, "Combos are good, so Brawl sucks." Or "Combos are unnecessary and personal preference, so hooray for Brawl." And then someone will follow up with, "Combos are good for competitive play." Followed by, "You can still apply pressure in Brawl." With the obvious next post being, "Not as much as Melee." And eventually, "I hope you die in a fire...twice!" With some "They're different games." thrown in there.

Just lock the thread.

 

[Masmasher@]

clel is like the most dedicated troll ive ever seen

 

[GHNeko]

This thread was made 5 months ago ak;lsdfj;adfjas;ldfkj

how the ****

...

just how the ****

has either side not exhausted every potential point? alksdjf;asdf;sdf

 

[Sliq]

There is no combos in brawl because brawl isnt a game, its a joke.

And the punchline is tournament play.

 

[EverythingSmash]

I like brawl the way it is. Think about it ssb64 is FAR from ssbm & melee if far from brawl. & if they ever makes another im sure it will be far from brawl. If they were all closely related anyone who good at melee could just pick up brawl and already know all the same combo's, trick exc.
// Personally I enjoy both low hitstun and high hitstun. Its why I play all three version's. Ha

 

[Claire Diviner]

Brawl's a game that focuses more on reading, predicting, and punishing. As a result, games are noticably slower than in Smash64 and Melee. It's probably why matches are 3 stock as opposed to 64/Melee's 5 and 4 stock respectively. Brawl is still very much competitive and the hype can be monstrous, like any other competitive game. Except the competition's more mental than technical, though having technical skill can still go a long way. Even though I play only Brawl, and quit Melee some years back, I still find both games to be great in their own way. Melee lovers may not like Brawl, and Brawl fans may scoff at Melee, but both parties should still respect and accept both games for what they are.

 

[OkamiBW]

Brawl's a game that focuses more on reading, predicting, and punishing.

The only thing is that this doesn't really mean anything, not only cause there's no evidence, but because Melee's like that too.

The last two sentences in your post are just fine though.

 

[Lenus Altair]

The only thing is that this doesn't really mean anything, not only cause there's no evidence, but because Melee's like that too.

In a game where combos are more prevalent, once you land a hit that you can combo from you have guaranteed fallow ups with which your opponent can't respond. That means in general a single hit does more since the combo amounts to one hit. That means you have to make less predictions to get a single kill assuming both in melee and brawl you kill at general the same presents (but don't you usually live longer in brawl?)

I'm glad brawl doesn't have so many combos. Combos kill a lot of the fun for most people because it makes it so player input after an initial hit is pointless. A player might as well set down the controller for a few seconds while your opponent finishes. I mean melees combos aren't so bad, but in other fighters it's just silly.

That's one reason why a lot of fighting games will never be mainstream. Players don't like to feel powerless to resist.

 

[GHNeko]

In a game where combos are more prevalent, once you land a hit that you can combo from you have guaranteed fallow ups with which your opponent can't respond. That means in general a single hit does more since the combo amounts to one hit. That means you have to make less predictions to get a single kill assuming both in melee and brawl you kill at general the same presents (but don't you usually live longer in brawl?)

...

1. Not all hits have guaranteed follow ups in Melee.
2. Can't respond? DIing and Tech Options aren't counter responses to combos? News to me.

I'm glad brawl doesn't have so many combos. Combos kill a lot of the fun for most people because it makes it so player input after an initial hit is pointless. A player might as well set down the controller for a few seconds while your opponent finishes. I mean melees combos aren't so bad, but in other fighters it's just silly.

3. Speak for yourself and not for a mass of people.
4. Not all fighters leave you defenseless against combos. I can name at least 5 of the top of my head that give you defenses MIDCOMBO.

That's one reason why a lot of fighting games will never be mainstream. Players don't like to feel powerless to resist.

...Fighting games ARE mainstream. They're one of the most mainstream gaming genres in the world, right up there with shooting games. wtf are you smoking.

Until you venture out into the FG world outside Smash (which you really dont sound like you ever will or give the impression you will with your disdain for combos) ie SRK, Dustloop, EVO, SBO, etc. Don't go around making ignorant statements about why "Fighting games will never be mainstream."

**** like that adds to the reason why Smash is looked down upon.

And once again, speak for yourself. "Powerless to resist"? Really? lol.

If you're going to stick to Smash, don't speak about **** you don't play. If you seriously played fighting games, you wouldnt be saying half of this ****. If you do seriously play fighting games, then you need to re-evaluate the things you say, big time.

ffs

 

[SmashChu]

...Fighting games ARE mainstream. They're one of the most mainstream gaming genres in the world, right up there with shooting games. wtf are you smoking.

Until you venture out into the FG world outside Smash (which you really dont sound like you ever will or give the impression you will with your disdain for combos) ie SRK, Dustloop, EVO, SBO, etc. Don't go around making ignorant statements about why "Fighting games will never be mainstream."

**** like that adds to the reason why Smash is looked down upon.

And once again, speak for yourself. "Powerless to resist"? Really? lol.

If you're going to stick to Smash, don't speak about **** you don't play. If you seriously played fighting games, you wouldnt be saying half of this ****. If you do seriously play fighting games, then you need to re-evaluate the things you say, big time.

ffs

What are YOU smoking?
http://www.vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=&publisher=&console=&genre=Fighter&minSales=0&results=50&sort=Total

Smash Brothers is the best selling fighting game per capita.
Other fighting games get beat by WWE and DBZ games. The only exceptions are Tekken (which has since fallen) and the second Street Fighter.

Smash tournaments are looked down up on because how the players act (i.e. MLG and EVO)
Fighting games fans don't like Smash because they are threatened. Their once great arcade style fighting games have since become a niche and are beaten by Smash Brothers (ignore the WWE and DBZ games that routinely outsell them) and then they want to make tournaments for it. And worse, they call it a fighting game! Gasp. "How dare they compare Smash Brothers to our glorious fighting games." They are the only people who will actually argue a freaking genre as if it's then end of the world (and the fact that Nintendo and most big gaming sites call it a fighting game).

But don't kid yourself. These are the people who cheered of the glorious return of fighting games when SSF4 sold 4 million between 2 systems and in a warm market (where SF2 sold 6 on one).

 

[Claire Diviner]

What are YOU smoking?
http://www.vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=&publisher=&console=&genre=Fighter&minSales=0&results=50&sort=Total

Smash Brothers is the best selling fighting game per capita.
Other fighting games get beat by WWE and DBZ games. The only exceptions are Tekken (which has since fallen) and the second Street Fighter.

Smash tournaments are looked down up on because how the players act (i.e. MLG and EVO)
Fighting games fans don't like Smash because they are threatened. Their once great arcade style fighting games have since become a niche and are beaten by Smash Brothers (ignore the WWE and DBZ games that routinely outsell them) and then they want to make tournaments for it. And worse, they call it a fighting game! Gasp. "How dare they compare Smash Brothers to our glorious fighting games." They are the only people who will actually argue a freaking genre as if it's then end of the world (and the fact that Nintendo and most big gaming sites call it a fighting game).

But don't kid yourself. These are the people who cheered of the glorious return of fighting games when SSF4 sold 4 million between 2 systems and in a warm market (where SF2 sold 6 on one).

^ This, all day; everyday.

 

[GHNeko]

What are YOU smoking?
http://www.vgchartz.com/worldtotals...enre=Fighter&minSales=0&results=50&sort=Total

Smash Brothers is the best selling fighting game per capita.
Other fighting games get beat by WWE and DBZ games. The only exceptions are Tekken (which has since fallen) and the second Street Fighter.

Smash tournaments are looked down up on because how the players act (i.e. MLG and EVO)
Fighting games fans don't like Smash because they are threatened. Their once great arcade style fighting games have since become a niche and are beaten by Smash Brothers (ignore the WWE and DBZ games that routinely outsell them) and then they want to make tournaments for it. And worse, they call it a fighting game! Gasp. "How dare they compare Smash Brothers to our glorious fighting games." They are the only people who will actually argue a freaking genre as if it's then end of the world (and the fact that Nintendo and most big gaming sites call it a fighting game).

But don't kid yourself. These are the people who cheered of the glorious return of fighting games when SSF4 sold 4 million between 2 systems and in a warm market (where SF2 sold 6 on one).

Fighting games are not a niche. They're a mainstream gaming genre. Proving that Smash outsells them doesnt really mean much.

I don't even know what you're trying to prove at all. Period. I never said anything about Smash vs Fighters in terms of sales or popularity or whatever.

All I said was that fighting games are a mainstream gaming genre and that a lot of the **** the person I was responding to was talking about was either not true or just opinion/super bias.

wtf are you going on. super majority of your post is misplaced.

Also Smashers are looked down upon because of what they say and how they act. We all know this. I mentioned one of those reasons in my original post aka the **** he was saying was alskdjfds;lfas what.

 

[SmashChu]

Fighting games are not a niche. They're a mainstream gaming genre. Proving that Smash outsells them doesnt really mean much.

I don't even know what you're trying to prove at all. Period. I never said anything about Smash vs Fighters in terms of sales or popularity or whatever.

All I said was that fighting games are a mainstream gaming genre and that a lot of the **** the person I was responding to was talking about was either not true or just opinion/super bias.

wtf are you going on. super majority of your post is misplaced.

Also Smashers are looked down upon because of what they say and how they act. We all know this. I mentioned one of those reasons in my original post aka the **** he was saying was alskdjfds;lfas what.

Sales prove what mainstream or not, not what you want to believe in your little world. Sales are showing the people are more interested in WWE games and DBZ games than other "fighting," games.

Sales show what people are buying. What they are spending their hard earned cash on, and what, as a result, they are playing (as we buy games to play them). Most of the fighting game series sell at 1-2 million at best. The exceptions are Street Fighter, Smash Brothers and Tekken, but let's look at them more. Tekken has been declining since 3. 6 sold between the 1-2 million. Street Fighter 2 was a huge success but it faltered with Alpha and 3. Street Fighter 4 was suppose to be a huge revival, but it only sold 2/3 of the second game when 1)It was on two systems and 2)When there was a larger videogame market (thanks to population growth). It was unable to bring back players who had left the genre.

Compare these sales to racing, action and FPSs and see how Fighting games faultier in comparison. In the top 50 best selling games of all time, only one is a fighting game. Guess which one it is?

You may say "Oh, this has nothing to do with sales," but it has everything to do. We are arguing "Are fighting games mainstream?" The best way to find out is to look at the market. In other mediums, like music, this has been the determiner of this generic term we call "mainstream." Or, if you hate things that sell well we call them "sell outs."

The comment you replied to is important, but that is for another day.

 

[황미영]

Smash is so mainstream it is referenced a lot in pop culture, right?

 

[SmashChu]

Smash is so mainstream it is referenced a lot in pop culture, right?

Mainstream is a terrible word because how vague it is. It's used a lot.

Here, I am using it to refer to the popularity. Of course, I could say it's mainstream in gaming culture (but I wont because I find the term vague).