Doc's Advanced Techniques and Useful Tactics!

[Hairysun]

Ok, so I'm not the greatest player out there, but I do main Doc, and because of the amount of hours I have with him, I have picked up some tricks that have made my Doc unique yet effective. Here is a list of techniques/tactics that have helped me progress as a Doc player!


March 14th!

Short-Hop Rising U-air: This is one of Doc's best ways to approach opponents who have a strong air game. SH rising U-air comes out extremely quickly and will scoop up your enemy and leave them vulnerable to follow up attacks. The best part about it is that even if your opponent shields, enough forward momentum will allow you to go through their shield and end up behind them.

Waveland Recovery: This one is self explanatory. Doc has an amazing wavedash, and using it to recover from the edge makes it much more difficult for your opponent to hit you.

Retreating F-air: If you can make the read, you will get ****loads of K.O.'s using this. The best way I've found to do this is to SH back, use the C-stick, and DON'T fastfall if you're on flat ground, otherwise the animation will end before the hitbox comes out.

B-air Out of Shield: When executed fast enough, doing this will push your enemy back allowing you to escape pressure and reposition yourself.

Wavedash Pivot Grab: Pulling this off in the heat of combat is rather difficult, but once you get used to it, it becomes second nature. To do this, you wavedash backward, and while holding back, USE Z TO GRAB. The reason Z works best is because it allows you to throw out your grab 5-9 frames faster than you could if you wavedashed and grabbed out of shield. Players hardly ever see this coming, making it a good way to continue getting grabs while mixing up your approaches. You can use this same approach to do pivot F-tilts as well.



EDIT: March 15th!

D-Throw to F-Smash (only on Spacies and FF's between 75-120%): This is a near-guaranteed kill combo against heavier characters. It doesn't really work on floaties. It's easier to land than U-throw F-air once you get used to it, and nobody really sees it coming. Just be aware of how your opponent DI's and react to it; you have enough time to where a read isn't really necessary. If you don't get it your first try, just keep trying until you get it. NOTE!: it is most likely to hit if you F-smash diagonally upward.

D-air, L-Cancel, U-tilt to Combo: When presented with the opening, a good way to begin a combo is to use D-air to cause hit stun, L-cancel, and immediately follow up with an U-tilt. THE L-CANCEL IS CRUCIAL, IF YOU MISS IT, THIS APPROACH WILL NOT WORK! After the U-tilt, you have a few choices of how to string your combo: you can do a reverse B-air which will most likely result in knocking your opponent offstage, you can U-air which will send them in a more horizontal path for an easy N-air or second U-air, and so on and so on...

Running U-Smash: In pure space animal fashion. This is great to use because Doc's head becomes momentarily invincible. Replacing dash attack with this approach will lessen your opponents chance of catching you out of position, and can potentially kill, or lead into something that does. THIS WORKS SO WELL ON MARTH PLAYERS USING NAIR A LOT!

There are many, many more of these to be shared, but these ones seemed most crucial for interesting Doc play. Let me know if this was helpful and feel free to post other useful maneuvers and techniques that will progress the Doc meta-game!

(P.S. Don't hate on this post just because you feel as though this stuff is common knowledge. That may be true, but if I was able to see this 5 months ago, I would have improved much more quickly)

 

[Superw0rri0]

Short Hop U-Air: I should try this sometime... I usually approach with bair, nair, or pills

Waveland Recovery: I know you say it's self explanatory but can you explain further I'm having trouble seeing what you're getting at

Retreating Fair: I didn't think of this either. I usually only use fair to punish or to take a chance when i'm desperate. The only problem I see with this is that it would work with a smart marth since he's gonna be out spacing you in neutral game.

Bair out of shield: I do this alot... but what if your opponent is in front of you? I usually use nair in that case but what would you do?

Wavedash pivot grab: I should play around with this. I do this a lot with f-tilts... especially in neutral game against a marth.


If you got more ideas... keep em coming. We should turn this into a creative doc thread. I got some and I'll be posting later today.

 

[Hairysun]

Short Hop U-Air: I should try this sometime... I usually approach with bair, nair, or pills

Waveland Recovery: I know you say it's self explanatory but can you explain further I'm having trouble seeing what you're getting at

Retreating Fair: I didn't think of this either. I usually only use fair to punish or to take a chance when i'm desperate. The only problem I see with this is that it would work with a smart marth since he's gonna be out spacing you in neutral game.

Bair out of shield: I do this alot... but what if your opponent is in front of you? I usually use nair in that case but what would you do?

Wavedash pivot grab: I should play around with this. I do this a lot with f-tilts... especially in neutral game against a marth.


If you got more ideas... keep em coming. We should turn this into a creative doc thread. I got some and I'll be posting later today.

By waveland recovery I'm refering to grabbing the ledge, pressing down then jump and wave landing back onto the stage. The faster you do it from when you grab the ledge, the more invincibility frames you will have. Marth can edge guard really well but if you can waveland recover back onto the stage with max invincibility duration and get into shield, you won't get hit by the d-tilt or tipper; it also creates the perfect opening for an out of shield grab.

For the retreating Fair, you have to always be smart about when you use this because the key to it's success is keeping it hidden from your opponent then using it when they least expect it. Wait for your opponent to start over extending before you try and pull it off.

Bair OoS was assuming that your back is toward your opponent, but there are options for when you are facing them. You can SH Nair if you're daring enough, but the safer option, and what I like to do, is to WD back OoS then WD forward and either SH Uair or F-tilt. Another option is to crouch cancel D-smash or, if your opponent is against your shield, you can down+B them for style points. If their close enough, down+B will suck them in for the full duration then knock them back at the end of the atk.


D-Throw to F-Smash (only on Spacies and FF's between 75-120%): This is a near-guaranteed kill combo against heavier characters. It doesn't really work on floaties. It's easier to land than U-throw F-air once you get used to it, and nobody really sees it coming. Just be aware of how your opponent DI's and react to it; you have enough time to where a read isn't really necessary. If you don't get it your first try, just keep trying until you get it. NOTE!: it is most likely to hit if you F-smash diagonally upward.

D-air, L-Cancel, U-tilt to Combo: When presented with the opening, a good way to begin a combo is to use D-air to cause hit stun, L-cancel, and immediately follow up with an U-tilt. THE L-CANCEL IS CRUCIAL, IF YOU MISS IT, THIS APPROACH WILL NOT WORK! After the U-tilt, you have a few choices of how to string your combo: you can do a reverse B-air which will most likely result in knocking your opponent offstage, you can U-air which will send them in a more horizontal path for an easy N-air or second U-air, and so on and so on...

Running U-Smash: In pure space animal fashion. This is great to use because Doc's head becomes momentarily invincible. Replacing dash attack with this approach will lessen your opponents chance of catching you out of position, and can potentially kill, or lead into something that does. THIS WORKS SO WELL ON MARTH PLAYERS USING NAIR A LOT!

 

[Superw0rri0]

You can do A LOT out of an L-Canceled dair... that move is so good if you land it

 

[CuriousGeorge]

I think d-tilt is sort of underrated at higher percents. It is really situational but can lead to easy edge-guards. Also can you explain what you usually do after a dair?

 

[Superw0rri0]

I agree... dtilt is underrated... say you got your back to the edge. If you can manage to land a dtilt via wavedash or whatever... next thing you know you're in a position to edge guard... and they get sent downward so get ready to gimp them.

In regards to the dair follow ups....
Let's assume they're on the ground. The dair sends them upwards so they'll be in the air for a very short period when you land. Now l-canceling here is very important because dair has a lot of landing time. So when they're still in the air you are on the ground ready to do something. At lower percents you can follow up with a grab or a jab then follow that up with a grab or dsmash or upsmash or whatever. At mid percents you can follow up with a dsmash or uptilt. Higher percents you can pretty much do whatever. I wouldn't be surprised if you can land an fmash after.

If they're in the air, what I like to do is if I'm above them... I drill into them with dair and I get bellow them because dair sends them upwards... I like to follow up with an uair cause dair's lag time in the air is quite short so the set up is perfect for an uair and sometimes a bair... maybe even a nair.

 

[Henrik Lagerholm]

Many of these, are techniques that i see Shroomed use alot. One in particular is Short-Hop Rising U-air.
He also makes use of typical strats like the Wavedash d.smash that i also tend to use a lot now.

Nevertheless, some of them are really interesting. Though they feel extremely situational and i just can't figure out where or how they can be used. For example, the retreating f.air. Is there a certain situation where you know it will land? I could imagine that it hits another dash attacking Doc since he moves underneath you while you charge for the f-air hit but otherwise it feels kind of dumb as it is very slow and therefore probably better to just SH n.air for a retreating (defensive) attack as it comes out quicker and stays out longer.

 

[Superw0rri0]

For the fair.... I would use it if I'm up against a super aggressive player. Like falcons or spacies players. If you feel that they're really putting pressure on you, I would use a retreating fair. It gets them to back off and forces them to think before they approach.

 

[Henrik Lagerholm]

For the fair.... I would use it if I'm up against a super aggressive player. Like falcons or spacies players. If you feel that they're really putting pressure on you, I would use a retreating fair. It gets them to back off and forces them to think before they approach.

Very interesting, Gonna try to use that this weekend on a Falcon then. He's a very aggressive player so it might work.

 

[CuriousGeorge]

Is there anything guaranteed after an Up-B cancel?

 

[Frisbie]

the d-throw fsmash only works if they don't DI away. On any fastfaller, you should upthrow-> fair them from about 85-105%. Once they reach the percent where you can't get the upthrow fair (so after 105%), try dthrow, and if they DI it so you cant fsmash, do an upair to fair.

Another important aspect of Doc is his jab game. Often times it is to use jab in the neutral game since it is very fast, allowing you to punish even slight errors made by your opponent. Jab can lead to grab (best at low percents/when you know you can get a kill off of grab) or dsmash (good for getting your opponent off stage or killing them). If you are playing a floaty who gets knocked away by jab, you can follow up with uair. Jab is very good because it leads to combos, yet is very hard to punish if you miss.

I want to see Docs get better, so when I finish my hw I will post anything I think is helpful.

 

[tauKhan]

USE Z TO GRAB. The reason Z works best is because it allows you to throw out your grab 5-9 frames faster than you could if you wavedashed and grabbed out of shield.

This is not true. Pressing L + A to grab is exactly as fast as using z. I find z much easier to use, but if a player is more comfortable using L/R + A, there is no reason to switch to z.

 

[Hairysun]

This is not true. Pressing L + A to grab is exactly as fast as using z. I find z much easier to use, but if a player is more comfortable using L/R + A, there is no reason to switch to z.

I sat there for like an hour trying to L+A grab but the only way to do it fast enough out of wavedash is to jump the trigger you didnt use for the WD immediately after WDing which is really ****ing hard...

 

[tauKhan]

I sat there for like an hour trying to L+A grab but the only way to do it fast enough out of wavedash is to jump the trigger you didnt use for the WD immediately after WDing which is really ****ing hard...

Sorry, I can't comprehend what you are trying to say, english isn't my native language. I tried this and had no problem getting turnaround grabs from wavedash whenever I actually got grabs, and not ftilts.

But you were actually correct that it's bit difficult with L + A. This is because regular (not smash input) turnaround gets canceled by shield, so if you miss the grab by even 1 frame and let the shield come up, you will grab without turning around. So if you use L + A, you must be frameperfect, but this is advisable anyway.

The reason I say you don't need to switch from L+A is that I encourage new players to use keyboard grip which doesn't give you easy access to z.

 

[Henrik Lagerholm]

I sat there for like an hour trying to L+A grab but the only way to do it fast enough out of wavedash is to jump the trigger you didnt use for the WD immediately after WDing which is really ****ing hard...

You're basically saying that [Insert Trigger ]+A grab from a WD is hard because you got to use the trigger you didn't use for the WD, for the grab?

That is probably because you like to use the same trigger for everything.

My way was to learn to use the R-trigger for WD and L-trigger for L-cancel (sounds obv.) and for L+A grabs. It works very nicely and made my game simpler.

It all comes down to preferences, try to mix and find your preference.

 

[SmashMac]

I use Y+Z for JC grabs, out of shield too.

I really like this thread by the way. I've been using all of these for years but it's a good thing you brought it to people's attention. Retreating fair is great along with mixups of WD backwards to smash-attack (fsmash is what I use most). Mostly everything is situational, but it's good to let people know their options. Good work.

 

[tauKhan]

You can't do fast turnaround jc grab unless you smash input the turnaround, as jump also cancels hold/slight input turnaround. And I would advise against wasting frame(s) in jumpsquat when trying to shieldgrab out of shieldstun.

 

[Hairysun]

You're basically saying that [Insert Trigger ]+A grab from a WD is hard because you got to use the trigger you didn't use for the WD, for the grab?

That is probably because you like to use the same trigger for everything.

My way was to learn to use the R-trigger for WD and L-trigger for L-cancel (sounds obv.) and for L+A grabs. It works very nicely and made my game simpler.

It all comes down to preferences, try to mix and find your preference.

What I mean is this: I use L to WD, so if I want to grab as fast as possible using a trigger+A grab, I'd have to WD (with L) then R+A grab

 

[tauKhan]

You have have to release the shield anyway if you want to turnaround, so I don't see the problem in wd with L the grab with L + A. I can do it no problem with R -> R+A

 

[Logz]

I use Y+Z for JC grabs, out of shield too.

I really like this thread by the way. I've been using all of these for years but it's a good thing you brought it to people's attention. Retreating fair is great along with mixups of WD backwards to smash-attack (fsmash is what I use most). Mostly everything is situational, but it's good to let people know their options. Good work.

How are your hands positioned when you do JC grabs? I find it so awkward to switch from JC grabs to doing short hop up airs with my c-stick on the run.

 

[SmashMac]

How are your hands positioned when you do JC grabs? I find it so awkward to switch from JC grabs to doing short hop up airs with my c-stick on the run.

At this point it is all through muscle memory but I use Y+Z with the conventional way of holding a controller. I don't use the claw or any other hand forms.

 

[Hairysun]

So I've still been grinding away, and am learning some cool new stuff that I thought was worth sharing:

Up-B Cancel Out of Shield: it's not very good for combos, but this move CAN be used against the spacies (or any character really) to escape shield pressure. It's somewhat difficult to pull off but when you begin to get it down, it's super helpful as well as rewarding.

Shield Drop -> Up-air (or Nair): Useful when you are stuck in shield on a platform. When the opening presents itself, drop down and either upair or nair; although upair is easier to follow up.

Falling Up-air: OK, I know that upair'ing while falling is TYPICALLY bad, but in some cases it can be very good to continue shield pressure, follow up a combo, or catch your opponent off guard. Running off a platform to upair is a strong mix up. Also, try WDing toward your opponent, SHing to keep the momentum, FFing and then upair'ing right before hitting the ground to scoop up your opponent. This can be followed up by a WD Dsmash or Fsmash but it is CRUCIAL that you L-cancel the upair or else you won't be able to cover the distance to the other player in time.

B-throw -> WD back -> Rising Bair -> Falling Bair (->bair->bair->bair->etc.): You will get gimp after gimp after gimp if you learn to space bair after a B-throw. If your opponent is at a low %, B-throw then WD back, SH early enough to keep the momentum from the WD and bair while rising. Most of the time--if you time it right--after landing the first bair, while falling you can land a second bair. The key to the gimp is landing the B-throw close to the edge, because if you land both bair without exhausting double jump, you can throw out a third bair -> edge grab/hog. From there you can bair some more, cape, neutral, or whatever really, JUST MAKE SURE THEY DON'T MAKE IT BACK.