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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

Doctor Pink

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
80
Doc's cape has a bigger hitbox. I am not saying Doc is strictly better in all ways, he is just better overall. I think they both have their strengths and weaknesses, Doc just has more strengths. His Nair is also *better. Mario's fireballs are occasionally better as a long range poke, but I greatly prefer the trajectory of pills. Play whichever one you like more though, as both can be played at high levels, just know that Doc has been more succesful. It doesn't mean Mario can't succeed, he just hasn't done it as much.


*subjective to user
 

xDD-Master

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
2,992
Location
Berlin
I think I go with Doc, because I love his fair and also the nair... AND UP-B CANCEL! X)


E: Who is/are the best secondaries for Doc?
I mained Fox/Falco in the past, and peach a loooong time ago, and CF when I was a casual (5 years ago).
Which one out of those 4 would be the best secondary?
And how good is sheik as a secondary? (I am considering her, because I heard she is pretty easy compared to the others, and also has very good marth MU afaik, dash attack > marth iirc)
Thx in advance! :)
 

Doctor Pink

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
80
I am currently subbing Luigi and Falco. Learn Marth though, even if you aren't going to play him. Marth forces you to have perfect spacing and perfect timing, both of which are vital skills for every character. The thing about Marth that makes him good for learning these skills, is that they are the only things necessary to understanding Marth. If you understand Marth, you understand how to fight him. Read my posts on the previous page, as I don't want to re-post them, lol.
 

St. Viers

Smash Champion
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
2,409
Location
Boston MA
His cape has a larger hitbox, so it makes it can catch people trying to sweetspot the edge when mario's cape would be unable to do so.

The biggest things (imo) that make doc better than mario are: kill setups from grabs, better tools to gimp (b-air and cape), a better projectile trajectory for controlling vertical space.
 

Frisbie

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 26, 2010
Messages
405
Location
Houston
What do y'all do when you're coming up from the ledge? Don't tell me waveland or something, I mean like if your opponent is spacing out moves to keep you from coming up, what will you do versus when your opponent is just standing there or on a platform or etc., more situational things. In other words, what get up options do you use in various situations?
 

Ørn

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
212
Location
Denmark
Wavelanding gives you so many options.

Waveland to roll gives you just a bit of extra distance (and invincibility) and is great against certain characters that WD back to punish something (like Marth, for instance). It can also give you enough distance to pass all the way under side platforms, which is great against, say, a Fox or a Falco trying to fall down with a bair.

Waveland to usmash sometimes beats, often trades with people coming down from above. Utilt is great for this too, and it's faster.

Waveland to dsmash is good if they're on the ground. Even if they shield it, it usually pushes people back a ton or keeps them in shield for a long ass time, so it's pretty hard to punish. Just don't do it too much. Dsmash is slow if you miss.

You can waveland back to the edge too and see if they commit to something. You can also opt to not waveland towards the center, but just down right at the edge of the stage.

Hell, I've had minor success with waveland to upB. It beats a bunch of aerials coming down from above, it's fast, and if they're at a decently high %, it sends them far enough away that you won't get hit in return.

Doc also has pretty decent OOS options, so shielding is an okay option too.

I think the only time where I don't waveland onto the stage is when I see them blatantly trying to crouch cancel stuff, in which case dair is pretty good if you space it right because it does a ton of damage to people trying to crouch cancel it. If you auto cancel it, you're usually not in danger of being hit.

I find that most people have a super predictable way of edgeguarding people coming up from the edge, so it's always a good idea to see what their go-to response is and then just use any of the many tools you have to counter it.
 

SmashMac

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Messages
1,388
Location
Naples, FL.
While I'm on the ledge I will sometimes do ledge-cancelled pills to then give me the extra miliseconds I need for a chance to get in with a waveland to usmash or dsmash. I only use fsmash when I know it's around the time for me to be killing my opponent. If it is lower percentage I will usually aim for a grab instead of a smash attack, unless I want to get the opponent mid-stage and away from the edge which may be necessary in cases. If I don't choose the waveland option due to option-choices, situations, etc., from ledge I'll come up with rising dair so that I land in perfect time to up-tilt or grab just after the dair has finished it's animation. I've also tended to lean more towards rising nair against floaty opponents that can't CC the middle damage sweetspot of doc's sex kick. It tends to catch floaties off guard and if they are DIng away (which for some odd reason they usually are,) it can set them up for juggle combos when they're around 50 - 70%.
 

EddyBearr

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,202
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
i recently started playing doc again , since he was my first character i wanted to play competitive w ,

any tips on how to play doc better in teams..../ how to approach better ..against fox's/falcon


and heres my doc in teams....so sad we lost this lol, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFf6YxXGHfs

Damn! Caping those fully charged charge shots! What a boss. Only thing I could tell you is that there was an astounding lack of pills. I also love pressuring with bair, but I'm bad, so I'm not to be trusted.

----

Just a bit ago (which is why I came to this thread) I was using doc against a CPU peach, playing around with stuff. I had no clue his cape, if used while peach was sending her parasol out, would "deflect" the parasol and give her some knockback. It should be noted that this is terribly counterproductive, but it was still unexpected. All it really does is let Peach use it again for even more height.
 

BlindSpot

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
Messages
141
Location
Houston, TX
Hi, all! Could someone explain to me the differences between Dr.Mario and Mario?

Edit: Sorry. I just read the last page :p
 

milligraham

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 5, 2013
Messages
98
Location
Texas
Is it just me or does almost every Doc player use the the black costume? I know other colors are used but it appears that black is the most frequently used.

Just kinda curious about what the general preference is. Personally black is my favorite by a landslide.
 

milligraham

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 5, 2013
Messages
98
Location
Texas
Max? said:
Color does not matter. Use whatever feels right. Focus on getting better.

Use a top tier
There might be a psychological aspect for some people where it doesn't feel right to use certain colors.

I have a falco and a falcon (that I've been neglecting recently)
 

Papa+Stone

Banned via Administration
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
450
The doc tier list proclaims black>red=white>blue>green. The higher the tier the more used they are. I for one have alwasy thought that blue had a lot of untapped potential (red main though, with a black top tier secondary i pull out from time to time) but for some reason everybody seems to neglect blue and that is in part why his metagame is stunted. I believe dogysamich experimented with hm for a little bit but currently he is in limbo. We need a blue doc champion.
 

Bestrin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
82
Location
Mandeville, LA
3DS FC
4656-9213-2468
What are good ways to practice PTP with Dr.Tornado?

I've been playing training mode on Yoshi's Island. I start with the speed at 1/2 and try to Dr. Tornado from the floor to the top platform. I got that down quickly, and then moved to 2/3 speed. Now I've gotten to the top platform only once. When I have that down, I'll set to 1x speed and try from there.
 

SmashMac

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Messages
1,388
Location
Naples, FL.
What are good ways to practice PTP with Dr.Tornado?

I've been playing training mode on Yoshi's Island. I start with the speed at 1/2 and try to Dr. Tornado from the floor to the top platform. I got that down quickly, and then moved to 2/3 speed. Now I've gotten to the top platform only once. When I have that down, I'll set to 1x speed and try from there.
Never stop practicing but I recommend practicing at regular speed. Back in the day I remember practicing PTP on Final Destination on training mode and if I could DJ after the PTP I considered that a true PTP. Nowadays I feel the most accurate result of a true PTP is practicing the way you are: position yourself below the middle platform in Yoshi's Story and PTP to land on top of it.
 

Max?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
2,255
Location
Falco Bair
What problems are you having exactly? Your question is too vague and I know I've personally written up matchup advice vs. both spacies more times than I can count. What problems are you having vs. what character? In general, punish super hard, CC-> stuff, don't put yourself in bad positions, mix ups, etc etc
 

onehunna

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
27
Location
Seattle, Washington
Hey boys, been having some issues regarding the downsmash out of jab. One approach I've been utilizing a lot is a short-hopped nair into jabs into downsmash (at lower percentages), but I'm having some inconsistencies with the speed in which the downsmash comes out after the jab--I'm not always sure it's fast enough. Usually I'll be mashing on the C-Stick and the delay can be significant for some reason, usually if I throw in a second or third jab. Is the C-Stick or A button better for this combo, or do both suffice, and is it a matter of timing? Or is one jab as far as you can push it without a big delay in between?

To take this question deeper, does the rest of Doc's jab into X game depend on the use of only a singular jab, or can you throw in more? Does it depend on which combo you're trying to execute (jab into grab, jab reset into forward smash, etc.)? As a side-note, sometimes when I'm going for a jab into grab, when I press Z, another jab will come out instead of the grab--I assume this is just a timing issue? Thanks.
 
Last edited:

Max?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
2,255
Location
Falco Bair
A few things. Do not mash on the Cstick to make the move come out, you should be deliberate with your inputs, mashing is a bad habit that can hurt you long term.

You can chain multiple jabs together into stuff. It depends on how your opponent deals with it and your reaction time. If they crouch cancel your jab, you may not be able to get a dsmash off in time, and instead they will either shield (at which point you should grab them) or hit you with a move instead. The opposite is also true in that if they do not crouch cancel, get hit by the jab and then panic, they can get hit by multiple jabs into stuff. I've had a number of situations where you land 3 or 4 jabs into -> grab/dsmash/something else, but it's very situational.

Make it a practice (especially in the first game vs. an opponent you've never played before) to jab them and wait to see how they respond. This will set up the jab jank from that point on. Land a few jab -> dsmashes, they start shielding, you start getting some jab -> grabs in, and before you know it they crumble beneath the weight of your college degree.

There are instances where pressing Z immediately after jabbing will result in other jabs. If you Jump cancel your grabs this should not be an issue, tho I may be incorrect.
 

SmashMac

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Messages
1,388
Location
Naples, FL.
A few things. Do not mash on the Cstick to make the move come out, you should be deliberate with your inputs, mashing is a bad habit that can hurt you long term.

You can chain multiple jabs together into stuff. It depends on how your opponent deals with it and your reaction time. If they crouch cancel your jab, you may not be able to get a dsmash off in time, and instead they will either shield (at which point you should grab them) or hit you with a move instead. The opposite is also true in that if they do not crouch cancel, get hit by the jab and then panic, they can get hit by multiple jabs into stuff. I've had a number of situations where you land 3 or 4 jabs into -> grab/dsmash/something else, but it's very situational.

Make it a practice (especially in the first game vs. an opponent you've never played before) to jab them and wait to see how they respond. This will set up the jab jank from that point on. Land a few jab -> dsmashes, they start shielding, you start getting some jab -> grabs in, and before you know it they crumble beneath the weight of your college degree.

There are instances where pressing Z immediately after jabbing will result in other jabs. If you Jump cancel your grabs this should not be an issue, tho I may be incorrect.
I agree with everything said here. To compliment what Max is saying regarding the crouch-cancel of your jab, just be careful of the weighted characters like C.Falcon and the spacies. I've fought Wizzrobe who punished my entire jab game every time with simply CCing my jab and then grabbing me. I do not recall trying to mix it up with multiple jabs but his timing was very good when it came to CC grabbing me out of my jab, regardless of how fast I tried to grab right afterwards. As far as the Z immediately after jab and it leading to another jab, to my experience if after the jab you are good at dash -> JC grab (my inputs are forward-dash, X, Z,) you can grab immediately after that jab.
 

ElloEddy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
323
Location
$led- NYC the beast-coast
i just wanna know how to deal with pressure , and falcos ..i have a problem with campy ones who run away ??? ,


another guestion do fox have and true shine / extended combos on doc ?
 

Max?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
2,255
Location
Falco Bair
What is it that Falco is doing that is causing you problems? In what sense are they campy? Platform/bair campy? Laser campy? All of the above? Go read back a page or two, I'm sure I've written up a synopsis on the matchup there.

Fox's who are good can get full waveshine combos on Doc. Waveshine -> aerial, waveshine -> Usmash, etc. Learn to Smash DI shine and drill to make it harder for him to punish you further.
 

ElloEddy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
323
Location
$led- NYC the beast-coast
What is it that Falco is doing that is causing you problems? In what sense are they campy? Platform/bair campy? Laser campy? All of the above? Go read back a page or two, I'm sure I've written up a synopsis on the matchup there.

Fox's who are good can get full waveshine combos on Doc. Waveshine -> aerial, waveshine -> Usmash, etc. Learn to Smash DI shine and drill to make it harder for him to punish you further.
laser and run away falcos , but i shall go look thanks , did you write anything about fox's ...because now my friend dashdances like mad , and respect doc to much to stay in my space lol , cant get my offense going
 

Max?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
2,255
Location
Falco Bair
Laser campy Falco isn't that bad for Doc. You just have to be patient and keep proper spacing so you don't give him any free damage. I know you dabbled in Falco for awhile, so you should have some understanding of how far he can jump in with a move (either from above or in front/behind you). As such try to stay just outside of "threatening" range when in the neutral game and camp him back. Your main goal is to mess with his rhythm and flow chart.

3 or 4 lasers = 1 pill in terms of damage, so if you're patient you can win the camping war. Space pills so they bounce above his head as he's trying to SHL you, which makes it hard for him to jump or else he will eat a pill. Players will often get scared by this, especially if they eat a pill or two, and start shielding, at which point they give up some stage control and you can mount an offense of your choice, or continue to camp. Throw in the cape here and there, learn how to wavedash out of shield, and powershield from a run to be mobile while combating lasers. And finally be patient and punish HARD. Practice those uthrow CGs and follow ups so you can start putting dthrow mixups in there and REALLY get some cheap stuff going (dthrow -> dsmash, tech chases, etc).

I think Doc has a way harder time vs. platform campy Falco. If they get the lead, you have to make risks. Just stay patient and do not jump into the ****. They will have to come down eventually.

As for DD campy Fox's, if they are running away from out of fear, then you are doing a good job. It means you are probably winning. Just stay patient and work that pill game. Don't be afraid to take space if they are willing to give it up, and punish HARD.
 

ZaXXoR

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Messages
327
Location
St.Catharines
i recently started playing doc again , since he was my first character i wanted to play competitive w ,

any tips on how to play doc better in teams..../ how to approach better ..against fox's/falcon


and heres my doc in teams....so sad we lost this lol, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFf6YxXGHfs
uhmm i find you and yuour partner were a bit to aggresive, approaching for the sake of approaching, doc is a counter- character, focus more on what they're doing
 

Ørn

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
212
Location
Denmark
Post about camping Falco
Just wanted to say that this is really, really good advice. Camping Falco back has basically become my primary strategy vs. Falco, haha.

I'd just like to add in that if you're a stock ahead, camping the ledge can be really good! It means they have to close the distance and you basically strip Falco of a bunch of his tools like his laser and shield pressure. Plus, you can camp pills from the ledge and Doc has a lot of good mix ups to get back on the stage like his invincible ledgedash. Dair is also pretty good at combating CC at the ledge, though be careful to space around shine/dtilt/dsmash. Might work better vs. some players than others, and I'm really, really comfortable around the ledge so it might be a personal preference thing.

What do you usually do out of a successful powershield? I've started getting pretty good at powershielding, but I'm absolutely terrible at getting anything out of it. I'm scared of wavedashing towards Falco most of the time because I feel like Falco still has a good window to side step/shine/whatever. The mix up still feels like its to his advantage.

Still the match up I'm worst at overall though. I can combo him for days, but getting the first hit is a struggle.
 

Max?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
2,255
Location
Falco Bair
It depends on stage positioning. If you are close enough to him you can land a grab/move out of it. Most of the time tho, you should probably continue to camp him and take over a little stage control. The goal is literally to time out Falco and make him so frustrated that he has to throw a move at you, at which point you kill him for being a fraud
 
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