Do you guys think that Cloud should be nerfed?

[Blixen]

Does the Smash 4 community think should get nerfed?

 

[Conn1496]

Well, I haven't seen Cloud at the top of a tier list in a long time. I've seen characters like Diddy, Sheik, Mario, and most notably Bayonetta (consistently) all place higher than Cloud on tier lists. I also think that Cloud suffers some really good counterpicks or counterplay despite being so good, which means that no matter what there'll always be a character/player able to get the drop on him.

Cloud is blatantly a character that is easy to play - he can carry players pretty hard - but he'll never be unbeatable, he just requires smarter play, which is something we'll obviously keep seeing more and more of over time. Cloud is basically nerfing himself with time, so what's the point? lol

 

[YoshiYoshi]

It'd be nice, but it's too late to save the competitive spirit of the roster. It would take too many nerfs to make him a skill based character.

High level smash is a gentleman's club that would all be playing Cloud if they didn't realize that they need viewers to make a buck or two playing this game. They bust their butts playing characters without invisible disjointed circumferential hitboxes with no lag so the few people who think this game isn't busted keep watching.

 

[iiJjRr]

His recovery is terrible. So of course he needs a nerf. Also Sakurai will make Cloud terrible.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Some things to keep in mind: When game developers balance games, they generally don't just balance for the top 50 or top 100 players, but rather aimed at higher levels of play that also helps make lower levels of play more enjoyable. So, maybe for like top 3% or so. At those levels of play Cloud is definitely too strong (and, let's be fair, even players like ZeRo think Cloud is super strong, so it's not like Cloud is bad at top levels of play). Cloud is a significant issue for many high tier characters and mid tier characters, so nerfing him a bit would likely make it a bit easier to play characters such as Ness, Pac-Man, and Yoshi.

Bayonetta and Diddy Kong should be nerfed as well. Sheik is less of an issue for top 3% players, but she's an issue for players higher up, and if Cloud, Bayonetta, and Diddy Kong get nerfed then Sheik should get some nerfs too. These nerfs do not have to be drastic, and chances are those characters will remain top tier and maybe even top 5.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It'd be nice, but it's too late to save the competitive spirit of the roster. It would take too many nerfs to make him a skill based character.

High level smash is a gentleman's club that would all be playing Cloud if they didn't realize that they need viewers to make a buck or two playing this game. They bust their butts playing characters without invisible disjointed circumferential hitboxes with no lag so the few people who think this game isn't busted keep watching.

Cloud is not the best character in the game though, that would prolly be bayonetta/Diddy. And not every competitive player looks to have the highest absolute optimal chance at winning because it doesn't suit them and it's predictable and beatable.

Some things to keep in mind: When game developers balance games, they generally don't just balance for the top 50 or top 100 players, but rather aimed at higher levels of play that also helps make lower levels of play more enjoyable. So, maybe for like top 3% or so. At those levels of play Cloud is definitely too strong (and, let's be fair, even players like ZeRo think Cloud is super strong, so it's not like Cloud is bad at top levels of play). Cloud is a significant issue for many high tier characters and mid tier characters, so nerfing him a bit would likely make it a bit easier to play characters such as Ness, Pac-Man, and Yoshi.

Bayonetta and Diddy Kong should be nerfed as well. Sheik is less of an issue for top 3% players, but she's an issue for players higher up, and if Cloud, Bayonetta, and Diddy Kong get nerfed then Sheik should get some nerfs too. These nerfs do not have to be drastic, and chances are those characters will remain top tier and maybe even top 5.

I'd nerf bayo's hitboxes on witch twist and ABK and dABK. and make witch twist startup later. Maybe reduce Diddy's Fair and Dtilt hitbox size slightly as well.

But I'd hit a lot of characters with big buffs afterwards. Biiig buffs.

 

[A Scrub]

It'd be nice, but it's too late to save the competitive spirit of the roster. It would take too many nerfs to make him a skill based character.

High level smash is a gentleman's club that would all be playing Cloud if they didn't realize that they need viewers to make a buck or two playing this game. They bust their butts playing characters without invisible disjointed circumferential hitboxes with no lag so the few people who think this game isn't busted keep watching.

Cloud does not need a nerf. He's great in doubles, but honestly not the best in singles.

His neutral is fantastic, but that can only get you so far. The struggle he has off stage is horrible. And as character's metas develop, Cloud is going to find himself struggling more in the matchups. He doesn't need a nerf at all.

Bayonetta and Diddy Kong should be nerfed as well. Sheik is less of an issue for top 3% players, but she's an issue for players higher up, and if Cloud, Bayonetta, and Diddy Kong get nerfed then Sheik should get some nerfs too. These nerfs do not have to be drastic, and chances are those characters will remain top tier and maybe even top 5.

Shiek and Diddy also do not need nerfs. Shiek has no kill confirms, so even though she can rack up damage, it's usually to her detriment, especially against Cloud, as he builds up rage and juggles her to death by 90%.

And sure, Diddy is a good character, but he's not broken. Learn the matchup, enjoy the game.

And finally, in response to balancing for skill, this is a good video.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Cloud does not need a nerf. He's great in doubles, but honestly not the best in singles.

In a game with 58 character (55 if you disregard Miis) some characters are likely to be too strong and some characters are likely to be too weak. Cloud is likely top 5 in singles, and he tends to be a significant issue for a large portion of the cast. Nerfing Cloud would make a lot of characters more viable. I bet a lot of players would like to play some character but decide not to simply because of Cloud.

Shiek and Diddy also do not need nerfs.

Sheik is probably top 3, and her MU chart is amazing.

And sure, Diddy is a good character, but he's not broken. Learn the matchup, enjoy the game.

Didd is also probably top 3, and his MU chart is amazing. Nerfing him would probably increase the amount of variety in tournament characters. It's not like they need to nerf him hard in order to make him a bit more balanced.

How common a character is also relevant. If a character is a bit too strong but really rare, then nerfing that character likely won't do much to increase character variety. Take Olimar, for instance. Let's say that Olimar is secretly a top 5 character. Nerfing Olimar wouldn't really help that much, since he's rarely played. Meanwhile, Diddy Kong and Cloud are fairly common characters, so nerfing them would actually help a lot.

Good game balance will need some nerfs and buffs. League of Legends and Dota 2 have been out for years, yet they still nerf the best characters and buff the weaker characters. Overwatch, too, has fairly frequent balance changes. Nerfs are an important part of balancing, without them we'll see major power creep. The game still has a lot of balance issues, so having more patches would be welcome (as long as the balancing is reasonable). Sheik, Diddy Kong, and Bayonetta have all been nerfed, yet they still remain top 3/top 5, thus proving that they were not overnerfed.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

In a game with 58 character (55 if you disregard Miis) some characters are likely to be too strong and some characters are likely to be too weak. Cloud is likely top 5 in singles, and he tends to be a significant issue for a large portion of the cast. Nerfing Cloud would make a lot of characters more viable. I bet a lot of players would like to play some character but decide not to simply because of Cloud.

Sheik is probably top 3, and her MU chart is amazing.

Didd is also probably top 3, and his MU chart is amazing. Nerfing him would probably increase the amount of variety in tournament characters. It's not like they need to nerf him hard in order to make him a bit more balanced.

How common a character is also relevant. If a character is a bit too strong but really rare, then nerfing that character likely won't do much to increase character variety. Take Olimar, for instance. Let's say that Olimar is secretly a top 5 character. Nerfing Olimar wouldn't really help that much, since he's rarely played. Meanwhile, Diddy Kong and Cloud are fairly common characters, so nerfing them would actually help a lot.

Good game balance will need some nerfs and buffs. League of Legends and Dota 2 have been out for years, yet they still nerf the best characters and buff the weaker characters. Overwatch, too, has fairly frequent balance changes. Nerfs are an important part of balancing, without them we'll see major power creep. The game still has a lot of balance issues, so having more patches would be welcome (as long as the balancing is reasonable). Sheik, Diddy Kong, and Bayonetta have all been nerfed, yet they still remain top 3/top 5, thus proving that they were not overnerfed.

We shouldn't nerf to make other characters better. We should nerf to make sure every character's design is healthy. Same for the opposite.

I wouldn't want to play pac-man even if all the top tiers were nerfed into the ground because he's still too gimmicky and weak.

 

[Frihetsanka]

We shouldn't nerf to make other characters better. We should nerf to make sure every character's design is healthy.

Why not do both?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Why not do both?

You won't have to if the design aspect is fine.

Every character being strong means every character will have the tools to successfully battle their greatest demons.

 

[Frihetsanka]

You won't have to if the design aspect is fine.

Every character being strong means every character will have the tools to successfully battle their greatest demons.

Every character being strong is ideal. Ideally, every character should be strong, but not too strong, and not too weak either. It can be hard to balance, especially in a game with 55-58 characters, so we'll probably never get a truly balanced game. Still, there are some outliers who could be toned down, and then a few characters buffed (although at this point I'd be careful with buffing, it's easy to overbuff, see: Marth/Lucina/Mewtwo).

Anyway. I certainly understand where people who are against nerfs come from. However, just buffing and never nerfing is likely to lead to power creep.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Every character being strong is ideal. Ideally, every character should be strong, but not too strong, and not too weak either. It can be hard to balance, especially in a game with 55-58 characters, so we'll probably never get a truly balanced game. Still, there are some outliers who could be toned down, and then a few characters buffed (although at this point I'd be careful with buffing, it's easy to overbuff, see: Marth/Lucina/Mewtwo).

Anyway. I certainly understand where people who are against nerfs come from. However, just buffing and never nerfing is likely to lead to power creep.

Nah it's just people are tooooo picky of what they think balance should be. As long as characters are able to overcome their bad MUs, all is gravy. Slightly overpowered characters didn't keep games like ST, MvC2, USF4, KoF 98, 02, XI, Vsav, etc... from being successful competitive games.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Nah it's just people are tooooo picky of what they think balance should be. As long as characters are able to overcome their bad MUs, all is gravy. Slightly overpowered characters didn't keep games like ST, MvC2, USF4, KoF 98, 02, XI, Vsav, etc... from being successful competitive games.

Smash 4 is better at version 1.1.6 than it was on 1.1.5, and 1.1.5 was better than 1.1.4. If so, then couldn't 1.1.7 be a better version than 1.1.6? If it turns out that 1.1.6 is the final version, then that's not too bad, but I think it could be improved, which includes nerfs to some characters.

We should also remember that balance changes don't have to be only buffs and nerfs. Perhaps Cloud could get some buffs to partly make up for the nerfs? What kind of buffs would you guys want to see (if we assume there'd also be some nerfs to make him overall slightly weaker).

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Smash 4 is better at version 1.1.6 than it was on 1.1.5, and 1.1.5 was better than 1.1.4. If so, then couldn't 1.1.7 be a better version than 1.1.6? If it turns out that 1.1.6 is the final version, then that's not too bad, but I think it could be improved, which includes nerfs to some characters.

We should also remember that balance changes don't have to be only buffs and nerfs. Perhaps Cloud could get some buffs to partly make up for the nerfs? What kind of buffs would you guys want to see (if we assume there'd also be some nerfs to make him overall slightly weaker).

A buff to his Ftilt (slightly less endlag), Neutral B (less endlag) and slightly better Up-B.

I anticipate a kinda hard nerf based on how people feel about top tiers.

I think what would be more important is who would we buff since there are more weak characters than strong ones.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I anticipate a kinda hard nerf based on how people feel about top tiers

Eh, Bayonetta, Cloud, Sheik, Rosalina & Luma, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, and Diddy Kong have all been nerfed in the past, and they're still top tier. Mewtwo and Marth (and Lucina, if you consider her top tier) got buffed a bit too much and are top tier as a result. I'm a bit worried the same might happen to other characters that are buffed. What if Link were buffed before Civil War, and he then ended up in top 10?

Has any character in Smash 4 been overnerfed, really*?

*Not counting transition from Brawl to Smash 4.

I think what would be more important is who would we buff since there are more weak characters than strong ones.

I disagree. In Smash 4 I think the majority of the cast are actually pretty strong. Buffing characters can really upset the balance, so they should be careful. I do believe that some characters, such as King Dedede and Jigglypuff, should be buffed a bit, although they should not overdo it.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Eh, Bayonetta, Cloud, Sheik, Rosalina & Luma, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, and Diddy Kong have all been nerfed in the past, and they're still top tier. Mewtwo and Marth (and Lucina, if you consider her top tier) got buffed a bit too much and are top tier as a result. I'm a bit worried the same might happen to other characters that are buffed. What if Link were buffed before Civil War, and he then ended up in top 10?

Has any character in Smash 4 been overnerfed, really*?

*Not counting transition from Brawl to Smash 4.

I disagree. In Smash 4 I think the majority of the cast are actually pretty strong. Buffing characters can really upset the balance, so they should be careful. I do believe that some characters, such as King Dedede and Jigglypuff, should be buffed a bit, although they should not overdo it.

(Not counting miis) Are all characters that have "secondary-required" MUs. They all need some serious buffing and I'd even argue and needs some slight buffs.

And marth and mewtwo are just fine. They don't invalidate anybody by themselves and have weaknesses that can be exploited. And if link got buffed into top tier land, that'd be really weird and I don't think that'll sit right (since he's fine rn and other characters need it farrrrr more than him), but I can't think that it'll be disastrous.

 

[FUEGO!]

Seriously, people just need to learn the damn match up and stop whining for a patch that is never coming. Sorry, but if you are just going to depend on something getting nerfed for you to do personally better, than you're focusing on the wrong aspects of the game. The only nerf he needed was the one he got, now learn the match-up already, he's been in the game for over a year now.

 

[CrimsonRick117]

The fact that this question still get's asked gets me lol. Clearly Cloud is fine as is, and doesn't require any further tweaks, but you will always have those lazy few that would rather complain and beg the developers to change a character rather then adjust. It wasn't even a few months after the patch that nerfed his u air and FT that people were still ******** about him...
I swear this community sometimes annoys me...scratch that most of the time.

 

[DMan64]

I personally don't think Cloud should get nerfed. I wouldn't mind if they tone down some aspects of him a bit though. Honestly I think it'd be much better if they buff the weaker characters a good bit, that way their strengths are more useful, or so their weaknesses are easy to capitalize on. Perfect examples include Mewtwo and Marth, both of whom still have their key weaknesses, but the improvements to what they were already good at help nullify the problems that plagued them back then.

I'd personally like to see buffed in a manner like that.

If that's not the case though, I think people should just learn the matchup, as a Corrin main I've found some ways around what Cloud can do, and though it still needs work, it has gotten me more victories as opposed to just whining about him needing to be nerfed.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

We may be dealing with a guy who is seemingly pretty similar to but no he doesn't need nerfs. Yes, master is highly salt-inducing but honestly I've had enough of this "Cloud is OP" ****. Like everyone says, learn the matchup and exploit his weaknesses. To everybody who keeps ranting about Cloud, I'm praying for y'all.

 

[DMan64]

L Lola Luftnagle , I think why that happens is that compared to other top tiers he's relatively straight forward and highly effective, unlike someone like Sheik who is very technical, but great if you master her. Does that mean people are justified to complain though, no. Really if you thing about it, Cloud's straight forward nature really goes to show how well the player's fundamentals are, since, aside from limit, he's relatively balanced. With that said there are definitely ways to exploit the character, but the key thing is that you have good fundamentals and you can capitalize on you and your character's strengths to punish the opponent and his weaknesses.

 

[WolfmanDeerek]

I thought Cloud already got nerfed. What I find crazy is the lvl 8 cpu Bayonetta doing the rising death combo on an "every few matches" basis. And she got tweaked, too.

Who actually has a no win scenario vs him? I think even if you cite results it'll be situational / personal indifference rather than basic match up in general. I've fallen to good Ganons as Cloud and pounded Clouds as Ganon.

I mention Ganon because I see people comparing Cloud to Sheik, Diddy, ZSS, and Sonic. Use Ganon against competent players of all of those characters. Sheik and Cloud don't shame him like the others mentioned. Not to say its easy against them, but the example stands. Take it a step further and use Jiggs against them all. Take the bottom five at that. Unless you just have a personal struggle against Cloud I doubt you'll maintain the stance he is in desperate need of a nerf.

 

[DarkAuraful]

Nope. While that is an ideal scenario, it's not gonna and won't ever happen. Plus I'm pretty sure there are some characters being discovered that even Cloud can't stand a chance against.

It's time to stop relying on patch nerfs and strategize how to counter attack him. Cloud's not even a bad opponent to fight against.