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Do you feel guilty?

KingTeo

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Not passing judgement but I am really curious.

Lucario's aura system only rewards him when he does poorly. Compared to his iteration in Project M where his Aura system rewarded him for playing well, do you think that this mechanic based on giving you more reward for the worse you play is unfair at all? This isn't a question on whether or not it's overpowered, or cheap; just if it's kind of backwards in logic or unfair?

Edit: After seeing the responses yea I can definitely see it in a positive light. It can definitely be considered a high-risk high-reward mechanic instead of just a handout for taking damage.

464
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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No because it's not rewarding him for playing bad, it's rewarding him for not dying and accepting an awful game at low percents. He gets his power when he himself is at risk of death.

Smash 4 overtuned it, which is where the problem is for a lot of people.
 

Steam

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Lucario sure doesn't get rewarded for playing badly when he does something stupid and dies at 60.
but yes the mechanic is frustrating. I would gladly trade aura stupidity for having brawl hitboxes again

Project M Lucario is an abomination.
 

Masonomace

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I don't feel guilty one bit.
The importance of Lucario's Aura cap defines how much of an impact Lucario can put in the match when surviving for that long. His Aura mechanic since Brawl has always been high risk, high reward. And because his Aura cap didn't lower, but in fact heightened, it adds more of a risk/reward factor. Rage effect in all honesty just happened to be in SSB4 & 5
 

Rysir

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Nope! Is a ton of fun when Im at high % and so making it end up being equal grounds of either me or my opponent being KO'd at any point of the match. Besides my reward for surviving is harder hitting attacks and their punishment for failing to finish me off is to get crunched so its pretty fair to me.
 

KingTeo

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Lucario sure doesn't get rewarded for playing badly when he does something stupid and dies at 60.
but yes the mechanic is frustrating. I would gladly trade aura stupidity for having brawl hitboxes again

Project M Lucario is an abomination.
This is off-topic but I actually like Project M's Lucario better than his iteration in Sm4sh. What makes you say it's an abomination?

Edit: And why would you trade anything for anything that has to do with Brawl's version of Lucario?

And what's aura stupidity? Please explain.

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Kami~

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Brawl lucario was MUCH more fun and had many more options than S4 version with some of the strings/mixups you could pull.
Theres still a ton of things you can do in s4 but it just doesn't have the same feel, though he is still extremely fun

Also brawl lucarios aerial hitboxes were much better than in s4, you could actually beat people in the air. Now you usually lose air to air which is really obnoxious.
 

RT

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It would have been more balanced to have a stronger starting base and then smaller Aura gains that caps at a smaller percent and not be quite as drastic.

That being said, people always seem to forget the parts where doing 5 hits with no Aura Lucario does like 20ish percent, when other characters can do 50+ percent with the same number of hits.

Aura will never be balanced how it currently functions, especially given how they thought Brawl Aura wasn't good for some weird reason.
 
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Tyril132

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Lucario's aura system only rewards him when he does poorly. [...] This isn't a question on whether or not it's overpowered, or cheap; just if it's kind of backwards in logic or unfair?
I honestly have a hard time understanding how people form this rationale.. it's really more of a double-edged sword that hurts him as much as his opponent. It's true that Lucario is stronger when he's at higher percentages... but he's also very weak when he's at low percentages. This simple fact directly impacts the pacing of the match; he simply isn't much of a threat when he's on a fresh stock, and this limits his options and empowers his opponent, letting them dictate the pace. His kill potential only really comes out when he's at risk of getting KO'd himself, which encourages transitioning fluidly between defensive and aggressive play.

That being said, people always seem to forget the parts where doing 5 hits with no Aura Lucario does like 20ish percent, when other characters can do 50+ percent with the same number of hits.
This. So much this. It can be really frustrating to very carefully string damage onto the opponent only to have them completely even the score in one or two hits.
 

KingTeo

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I honestly have a hard time understanding how people form this rationale.. it's really more of a double-edged sword that hurts him as much as his opponent. It's true that Lucario is stronger when he's at higher percentages... but he's also very weak when he's at low percentages. This simple fact directly impacts the pacing of the match; he simply isn't much of a threat when he's on a fresh stock, and this limits his options and empowers his opponent, letting them dictate the pace. His kill potential only really comes out when he's at risk of getting KO'd himself, which encourages transitioning fluidly between defensive and aggressive play.


This. So much this. It can be really frustrating to very carefully string damage onto the opponent only to have them completely even the score in one or two hits.
I think the rationale is

"Lucario at 0% is the normal, standard, and base Lucario. The aura system gives him an advantage directly proportional to how much damage he takes and therefore encourages bad play. Why should the character be rewarded for losing?"

They see it as just a freebie advantage given to him when he takes damage instead of seeing it as an integral system to his character.

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RT

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It still amuses me people think Lucario is easy to play. By all means, please go win all the tournaments in the world. It was soooooooo easy in Brawl, right? Oh wait...
 

Tyril132

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I think the rationale is

"Lucario at 0% is the normal, standard, and base Lucario. The aura system gives him an advantage directly proportional to how much damage he takes and therefore encourages bad play. Why should the character be rewarded for losing?"

They see it as just a freebie advantage given to him when he takes damage instead of seeing it as an integral system to his character.
Yeah, I think this is where the main disconnect occurs. From MTI's aura damage chart, Lucario's damage doesn't really become comparable to most other characters until around 70%-92% damage range, which is what I think most people who play him probably consider to be the 'base, standard Lucario' ... and at that point he's approaching KO territory.
 

Steam

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This is off-topic but I actually like Project M's Lucario better than his iteration in Sm4sh. What makes you say it's an abomination?

Edit: And why would you trade anything for anything that has to do with Brawl's version of Lucario?

And what's aura stupidity? Please explain.

458
project M lucario is an abomination because they turned him into a marvel character with dumb 50-50s. Seeing them give him shoryuken and tatsu was almost like they thought Lucario wasn't a character they wanted in the game and he was just dog ryu.

I'd trade how sharply tuned aura is for having brawl lucario's hitboxes as they were way better than they are now. Smash 4 Lucario is below average at everything in terms of neutral game, even at high aura.
 

KingTeo

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project M lucario is an abomination because they turned him into a marvel character with dumb 50-50s. Seeing them give him shoryuken and tatsu was almost like they thought Lucario wasn't a character they wanted in the game and he was just dog ryu.

I'd trade how sharply tuned aura is for having brawl lucario's hitboxes as they were way better than they are now. Smash 4 Lucario is below average at everything in terms of neutral game, even at high aura.
50-50s? Marvel character? what do you mean by that?

They took a lot of artistic liberties with redesigning Lucario but I liked it. He felt much more like a fighting-type pokemon. In Brawl he just felt too floaty and not just because the game was slower. None of his attacks actually felt damaging.

And compared to Brawl his hitboxes in Kerfuffle seem to be bigger and better in comparison. In fact, Smash 4 Lucario was buffed in almost every single way.

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RT

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They took away his lingering hitboxes, which made him very good with aerial approaches and combos. Hell, this is one the main reasons why he doesn't play the same as Brawl.

Lingering hitboxes are super good in Smash 4, and you'll notice some of the better characters have moves that just seem to stay out forever. If Lucario still had the same lingering hitboxes from Brawl...oh lordy.
 
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Steam

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50-50s? Marvel character? what do you mean by that?

They took a lot of artistic liberties with redesigning Lucario but I liked it. He felt much more like a fighting-type pokemon. In Brawl he just felt too floaty and not just because the game was slower. None of his attacks actually felt damaging.

And compared to Brawl his hitboxes in Kerfuffle seem to be bigger and better in comparison. In fact, Smash 4 Lucario was buffed in almost every single way.

452
his hitboxes on almost every move are smaller than in brawl. he used to have a lingering disjoint at the tip of every single move that also covered the sides.
 

KingTeo

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They took away his lingering hitboxes, which made him very good with aerial approaches and combos. Hell, this is one the main reasons why he doesn't play the same as Brawl.

Lingering hitboxes are super good in Smash 4, and you'll notice some of the better characters have moves that just seem to stay out forever. If Lucario still had the same lingering hitboxes from Brawl...oh lordy.
But if he had those lingering hitboxes, wouldn't it be kind of too much considering all of the buffs he's been given?


his hitboxes on almost every move are smaller than in brawl. he used to have a lingering disjoint at the tip of every single move that also covered the sides.
Isn't the damage and speed increase enough to balance that out though? 448
 

RT

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That is my point. If they were still lingering, then I could see the complaining being justified. But no, they don't linger. He got nerfed in this aspect, and this was part of what made him good in Brawl. He's only good in Smash 4 BECAUSE of his Aura.
 

Steam

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my point is I'd like aura to be nerfed but for him to have the old hitboxes back. Also he didn't get a speed increase really, all his stuff is around the same speed
 

chaos_Leader

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You know, my roommate and eternal smash rival said the exact same thing about Lucario's Aura, that it rewards bad play, to which I responded, "Lucario players who play badly get utterly stomped." which they do, which I do when I make the wrong judgements at the wrong time in a match.

When I first played Lucario when I got the game, and saw what happened to his hitboxes; stunted range (which doesn't scale with the aura), lopped off lingering hitboxes, without much apparent tradeoff; my reaction was essentially "ah crap". At that point I knew the recovery got a boost and scaled with aura, and that felt like just a consolation prize at best. It wasn't until I first saw how much the aura scaling had been overclocked that I realized where Lucario's strengths are.

The way I see it, Lucario's aura scaling grants great rewards for smart play, and really only puts a band-aid on a poor match at best.

Say for instance Lucario's opponent comes out swinging, plays smart, and very quickly stacks up lots of damage on Lucario while taking very little in return: great for Lucario, right? He gets a big aura boost and can quickly turn the match around. Lucario can turn the match around, that doesn't mean he will. If Lucario's opponent is playing well and not falling for things, getting that aura boost is practically moot anyway if Lucario can't get those hits in. Mind you Lucario isn't exactly gifted with great up-close tools compared to much of what we're up against, further compounding that situation. The biggest boon Lucario really gets with Aura scaling, at least as far as punishing it goes, is Force Palm range, Aura Sphere swelling, and a longer recovery to work with. And if the opponent character is a particularly hard hitter, who can easily KO Lucario well before the aura scaling powers up to ludicrous levels, then staging any kind of comeback becomes really really difficult. At that point, Lucario cannot afford to make even one punishable mistake, or the stock is gone. And if Lucario hasn't damaged his opponent much before losing the first stock, then the extra aura boost for being behind becomes little more than a pity prize. I can tell you from experience: really not a great position to be in, especially when other characters can comeback, whose KO moves' power isn't proportional to how hurt they are.

On the other hand, if Lucario plays smart, minimizes the damage he takes while gradually tacking more on to the opponent, it grants a very cozy kind of damage buffer zone. Lucario won't be able to get great KO power until he gets a good aura boost, but that's fine, since the more the opponent takes damage, the less aura boosting Lucario needs to get that KO, and thus the less he needs to stick his neck out for the aura scaling. It puts the ball in Lucario's court and allows him to play the match on his terms, rather than struggling in a risky uphill battle for that comeback. And yes in some cases, if the player wants to, it could mean a tactical decision to allow the opponent to hurt Lucario a little and build up his aura. It may even get the opponent to lower their guard, give them a sense of security (I'm making a comeback! Yay!) in which they might be more inclined to take punishable risks. I personally wouldn't recommend the tactic, not unless, say, Lucario had practically 0% aura buildup, the opponent has lots of damage built up, the timer is going down and you don't want to go to Sudden Death.

Still, the point is, the aura scaling is simply a tool in the Lucario player's arsenal. And like all tools, it yields the best results with intelligent use.
 

ArticulateT

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I'm guessing this is coming fresh from ZeRo's twitter feed the other day.

I'd say I agree with a lot of folks here in that the character's mechanic doesn't reward playing badly. The post above is valid, as meter is built in many fighting games through both dealing and receiving damage.

I see it as rewarding survivability, in that if you can still fight while sitting far beyond the kill percent, then you're clearly doing rather well. It also runs into the dilema that by purposely playing lazy to get that damage boost, you'll find yourself in a predicament because your opponent, likely sitting pretty with 0% damage, will not only survive your next attack, but do so in a way that they could reliably tech it. It's all well and good to become damaged to be boosted, but you then have to get out of that combo to use that boost.

It might seem like it's rewarding bad play, but to be fair, you need to have good play to use that boost. It is far from efficient in any match to let yourself get wailed on just for a boost that, although big, might not win the day. I could respond by saying that Wario rewards bad play by being able to fly via vectoring, Little Mac's KO punch technically rewards bad play as the power meter builds faster the more you get hit, but that may just be a different kettle of fish.

So, in short... no. I don't feel guilty playing Lucario. I don't think I should feel guilty simply because the character has a mechanic I have no option to turn on or off. While I like Project M Lucario, I don't find myself repulsed by Sm4sh or Brawl Lucario either. The character is fun to play, regardless of the Aura mechanic.
 

Rickster

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I don't feel guilty in the slightest. Aura is a gift and a curse. Not being able to KO your opponent who's at 140% while you're at 10% or so really sucks. It makes comebacks harder since you can't KO until you're ready to be KO'd yourself. You pretty much have to go into every match thinking "I CAN'T get KO'd first.", or it will be an uphill battle.

So I pretty much just repeated what everyone else said.
 
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SimonBarSinister

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I certainly don't feel guilty about using Lucario. He's an awesome character with a risky mechanic. Being bad with Lucario will just make the player lose the match without being able to fully utilize their aura boost. Contrary to what others might say about him, Lucario's true power is unleashed if the player performs well and manages to stay alive. It goes without saying that his power is only as good as the player using him, not skill being inversely proportional to success rate.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. It's not rocket science.
 

Inune

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I think the rationale is

"Lucario at 0% is the normal, standard, and base Lucario. The aura system gives him an advantage directly proportional to how much damage he takes and therefore encourages bad play. Why should the character be rewarded for losing?"

They see it as just a freebie advantage given to him when he takes damage instead of seeing it as an integral system to his character.

453

I think this is definitely the problem. I'm so damn tired of seeing Aura compared to Monado Arts with the compulsory "See?! Shulk's buffs have a disadvantage and Lucario's buff has none!!"

It seems like people can trade jabs and tilts with me at low percentage, come out with a 20-30% advantage, and just think they're outplaying me, but do the exact same trade at higher percentages and think I'm a baddie getting propped up by an OP mechanic.

Just how weak Lucario is at low percents is very hard to communicate to someone until they try to play him themselves.
 

|RK|

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Of course not. I don't become fast Ganondorf or something when I have high aura. I become infinitely more easily killed. Aura maxes out for the last move at 192%. Do you realize how insane that is? If you cannot kill me by the time I'm at 192%, then you deserve to be beaten. Because at that point, I'm not only *not* playing badly, I'm playing *very* well. I'm reading you perfectly at that point, picking and choosing the appropriate moments to attack, etc.
 

Reila

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I don't feel any bit guilty because there is no shame in picking a top tier character.
If you pick the character only because they are top tier, then yes, there is shame in doing such thing.

Anyways, the problem with Lucario (IMO) is not the aura itself, but Lucario's recovery, specially when it is fully buffed by the aura. Lucario getting stronger when at high % is a pretty cool mechanic, but **** its stupid recovery.
 
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Tyril132

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Anyways, the problem with Lucario (IMO) is not the aura itself, but Lucario's recovery, specially when it is fully buffed by the aura. Lucario getting stronger when at high % is a pretty cool mechanic, but **** its stupid recovery.
It can be annoying to deal with, but when he's knocked far enough off the stage for it to matter, he usually has to take a fairly predictable route to get back to the platform or ledge. He's very vulnerable to being gimped or intercepted if you successfully read it.
 

hichez50

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Tyril132 hit it on the nail.

Lucario seems to be a more focused character than he was in Brawl. With the aura boost, but decrease in range with the same mediocre speed on his attacks he is now more about rushdown and careful spacing. Which are skills that are hard to execute on at a top level( requires skill).

The only thing playing bad as lucario gets you is a loss. If you are being outplayed by your opponent no amount of aura will save you.
 

Tyril132

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Smash 4 boards, everybody.
If you're ZeRo, or M2K, or any one of the other high profile competitive players that understand the intricacies of why a character is placed somewhere on a tier list, go nuts. For the other 99% of competitors, their skill is going to cap their advancement a lot more than their choice of character.
 

Nysyr

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So these are the offending moments.




ZeRo's tweet really annoyed me, especially since at the beginning of the video he defends against his mains being top tier...

The VOD was muted so I couldn't tell what he was saying, but from what I get he seems to think Lucario at 0% is where he should be damage wise.

The scaling a little harsh? Maybe. But he's pretty damn slow and punishable, and spamming Fox lasers to rack up damage is darting around the issue when a smash attack will get it done at like 90-100% anyways.

Edit: just tested at the %s in training, ended up with same damage before and after on both characters. Fresh Bair on a jumping fox for the full 22(21.5ish)%. Slapped the CPU to 45% just to make sure it was fresh. Was in the same spot on the same map.

CPU lived easily, and they don't vector. Granted I don't think training has a freshness bonus. I've heard rage also doesn't apply.

At any rate, ~20% more and other characters would be KOing at the same %s as Lucario anyways.
 
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RT

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Well, let's see...

Bair is one of the Lucario's strongest aerials but has a good amount of startup and doesn't stay out long.
The Lucario had rage and Aura.
They were already on the right side of a stage with small-ish blastzones.
Fox is kind of light weight.

Yup, he's mad.
 
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Tyril132

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Some of the tweets are actually pretty hilarious:
Pros are human and they can be biased from emotion or anecdotal experience like anyone else and ZeRo is no exception. That said, I honestly don't see any way to interpret them other than being salty and I lost a lot of respect for him.

Instead of going to the lab and testing his assertion or figuring out a way to deal with it or acknowledging that he was simply outplayed, he chose to tweet a naked rage dump that conveniently ignores things that damage his argument like Lucario's low priority, slow speed, low baseline values, etc.


Deal with it.
 
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Kos-MosPlushie

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I'll admit that I loved P:M's Lucario, that was the only reason I had considered Lucario for Smash4 in the first place (his neutral air is currently my favorite attack in Smash to date). Damn though if he can kill at that low of a percent, I need to reconsider picking him back up.
 

RT

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Please do. I want to see Lucario win 50%+ of all tournaments like MK did in Brawl. Then and only then can the complaints be valid.
 
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Tyril132

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Every time I post under @ RT RT , I feel like his Avatar is staring down at me... judgmentally.

Edit: He changed it now, so it's not longer relevant. lol
 
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