Do Spirits STILL deconfirm fighters? Can an ARMS rep change things!?

Can Spirits still be DLC fighters?


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Mushroomguy12

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A pre-purchase bonus character having a PG isn't that much of a stretch considering they would've been developed at the same time as the game, allowing new lines to be made in a timely manner. The DLC just recycles SSB4's lines.
So..... you're proving my point about the development time and how Plant doesn't have a spirit because it was developed at the same time as the base roster.
See, there's a problem there. Fighter Spirits are for all intents and purposes the definitive version of their characters. Builder Mario and Tennis Aces Mario may still be Mario, but the Fighter Spirits is THE Mario. Same goes for Luigi and K. Rool. K. Roolenstein and Kaptain K Rool are the personas, where the King K. Rool Spirit is THE K. Rool. The Wii Fit example is completely invalid since it's showing the pose itself and not necessarily the Trainer.
I don't see any "problem" there at all. Like I said before, Fighter Spirits can't even be equipped or used in battles, they don't even have a battle. So it really is just like the Mewtwo and Lucas trophies in terms of gameplay purposes, because Fighter Spirits are no different from Trophies.

It would affect gameplay if Viridi were made playable because we'd have to lose one of the few Metal Killer Spirits to make her a Fighter Spirit. These things have important functions, and compared to those Event tweaking and text changes mean nothing when arguing viability.
Or we lose nothing because we'd just have two Spirits of Viridi, the original metal killer one and the Fighter Spirit. Why is that so hard to comprehend?
 
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zferolie

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If that's your definition of evidence then allow me to rephrase. The developmental choices and patterns regarding who is a Fighter and who is DLC have been quite consistent over the course of FP1 (Including Plant) - there has been no overlap whatsoever - so we can analyse this and come to an educated conclusion, which is what I have been doing. This is what I have been describing as evidence.
This isn't like SSB4 where our first DLC was a missing veteran. We've already seen how Ultimate's handling DLC with FP1, and FP2 is more of the same.


Have you considered that if a character like Geno or Shantae were going to be playable, they would've been playable at launch rather than being made a Spirit?
And yes, names and Spirit Battles can be tweaked, but both those points completely ignore the stat boosts and abilities Spirits give, which is the core part of a Spirit. It would affect gameplay if Viridi were made playable because we'd have to lose one of the few Metal Killer Spirits to make her a Fighter Spirit. These things have important functions, and compared to those Event tweaking and text changes mean nothing when arguing viability.
I dont see stats or key spirits in world of light being any issue. Lets say shantae got added. Then her world of light spirit just becones shantae(half genie hero). There no issue.
 

Proceleon

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If the problem is the stats, can't you just replace the image with something else? Like if Viridi became playable, you could take her image, make it into a Fighter Spirit, and use the stats from her old Spirit for another character who DOESN'T have a Spirit. Does that make any sense?
That or use a different image for her Fighter Spirit, like her fighter render. Cloud and the Robins do that
Not really, the item already exists. We do have more than one Metal Killer, I believe Great Fox is another, but even then the item still exists already, so they aren't going to take that away for a simple Fighter.
And using a different image makes no sense, because that's still a Spirit that a character can equip in that case. Mario can equip Tennis Aces Mario because that's a different version of that character, but Viridi isn't going to equip Viridi.
 

Rie Sonomura

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Not really, the item already exists. We do have more than one Metal Killer, I believe Great Fox is another, but even then the item still exists already, so they aren't going to take that away for a simple Fighter.
And using a different image makes no sense, because that's still a Spirit that a character can equip in that case. Mario can equip Tennis Aces Mario because that's a different version of that character, but Viridi isn't going to equip Viridi.
Does it matter? They can give playable Viridi a completely new design or something, so it’d technically be a different Viridi from her Spirit. Not that I think they’ll go to that length, but it’s possible
 

Mushroomguy12

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Mario can equip Tennis Aces Mario because that's a different version of that character, but Viridi isn't going to equip Viridi.
Or she could.

The game's not going to crash because of it. Like I said before, Spirits are but a tiny little icon in the corner of the screen during most of the gameplay, barely even noticeable in the first place. They flash on screen for 5 seconds during a loading screen and that's it.
 

Proceleon

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Does it matter? They can give playable Viridi a completely new design or something, so it’d technically be a different Viridi from her Spirit. Not that I think they’ll go to that length, but it’s possible
Well, "Not that I think they’ll go to that length" is exactly the case. They've done the character their part, they're in the game, they don't need to do anything else.

Or she could.

The game's not going to crash because of it. Like I said before, Spirits are but a tiny little icon in the corner of the screen during most of the gameplay, barely even noticeable in the first place. They flash on screen for 5 seconds during a loading screen and that's it.
She couldn't, because then the Fighter and the equipped one would be the same Spirit. I think you grossly underestimate the function of Spirits.
 
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Mushroomguy12

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She couldn't, because then the Fighter and the equipped one would be the same Spirit. I think you grossly underestimate the function of Spirits.
No they wouldn't. They would be separate, just like how we had two separate Mewtwo and Lucas Trophies. We don't even use Fighter Spirits in battle.

I think you grossly overestimate the function of Spirits.
 
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Proceleon

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No they wouldn't. They would be separate, just like how we had two separate Mewtwo and Lucas Trophies. We don't even use Fighter Spirits in battle.

I think you grossly overestimate the function of Spirits.
A Fighter Spirit represents the Fighter and functions as a simple collectable.
A Primary Spirit is equipped to a Fighter Spirit to provide a stat boost and sometimes a special ability to the associated Fighter. Possibly with a Spirit Battle to collect them.
A Support Spirit is equipped to a Primary Spirit to boost the Primary using similar special abilities or minor boosts. These may also come with a Spirit Battle.
This is the hierarchy that Spirits work with. Changing one into another is simply not possible.
And I cannot stress this enough. Spirits. Are. Not. Trophies. Willingly ignoring the differences between the two will never help matters.
 

Mushroomguy12

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A Fighter Spirit represents the Fighter and functions as a simple collectable.
A Primary Spirit is equipped to a Fighter Spirit to provide a stat boost and sometimes a special ability to the associated Fighter. Possibly with a Spirit Battle to collect them.
A Support Spirit is equipped to a Primary Spirit to boost the Primary using similar special abilities or minor boosts. These may also come with a Spirit Battle.
This is the hierarchy that Spirits work with. Changing one into another is simply not possible.
And I cannot stress this enough. Spirits. Are. Not. Trophies. Willingly ignoring the differences between the two will never help matters.
They don't need to change one into another because they can have both at once. The Fighter Spirit and the original Primary/Support Spirit can easily co-exist.

I think you're the one coming up with these imaginary irreconcilable differences between Spirits and Trophies when that doesn't even impact the original argument.
 
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zferolie

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Wow its crazy just how angry the different sides of the spirit arguments are.

I will say i really dont think spirits fully deconfirm except for a few key things.

First, if the spirit used is the newest version of the character, so viride is out in that case unless a new kid icarus comes with new art. Characters that use older art, like shantae who uses half Genie hero art and her seven sirens art is her new game art, or some very old characters, like Geno, are still on the table.

Second, if the spirit was added after smash launched. Those showed how sakurai in nintendo has no intention of dlc fighter plans for them.

Now Proceleon Proceleon , you say that a character cant have a spirit and be playable, what about pikachi, who had a lets go pikachu spirit added? Yes he was already playable, but this shows that you can have a spirit reping the same exactly looking character as a fighter just labled differently.
 
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Rie Sonomura

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Wow its crazy just how angry the different sides of the spirit arguments are.

I will say i really dont think spirits fully deconfirm except for a few key things.

First, if the spirit used is the newest version of the character, so viride is out in that case unless a new kid icarus comes with new art. Characters that use older art, like shantae who uses half Genie hero art and her seven sirens art is her new game art, or some very old characters, like Geno, are still on the table.

Second, if the spirit was added after smash launched. Those showed how sakurai in nintendo has no intention of dlc fighter plans for them.

Now Proceleon Proceleon , you say that a character cant have a spirit and be playable, what about pikachi, who had a lets go pikachu spirit added? Yes he was already playable, but this shows that you can have a spirit reping the same exactly looking character as a fighter just labled differently.
That and LG Pikachu has NO DESIGN DIFFERENCES from Playable Pikachu
 

Proceleon

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Wow its crazy just how angry the different sides of the spirit arguments are.

I will say i really dont think spirits fully deconfirm except for a few key things.

First, if the spirit used is the newest version of the character, so viride is out in that case unless a new kid icarus comes with new art. Characters that use older art, like shantae who uses half Genie hero art and her seven sirens art is her new game art, or some very old characters, like Geno, are still on the table.

Second, if the spirit was added after smash launched. Those showed how sakurai in nintendo has no intention of dlc fighter plans for them.

Now Proceleon Proceleon , you say that a character cant have a spirit and be playable, what about pikachi, who had a lets go pikachu spirit added? Yes he was already playable, but this shows that you can have a spirit reping the same exactly looking character as a fighter just labled differently.
That and LG Pikachu has NO DESIGN DIFFERENCES from Playable Pikachu
Yes, Pikachu did have a Spirit after launch, but this goes back to my point on Tennis Aces Mario. That Pikachu is the Partner Pikachu from Let's Go specifically i.e. a specific incarnation of Pikachu. Boiling it down to "that's Pikachu" isn't accurate, as it's more like "that's a Pikachu" as opposed to "that's the Pikachu." They're not even the same in their own game, so equating them is even more of a stretch.
There is no "a Geno" for example, there is only "the Geno." Link's a bit different, because they're mostly all different people, but that's a whole other can of worms.
Also, Luma has a normal spirit and is playable... so yeah that whole argument is as dead as people saying Banjo wouldn't get in.
Luma's not exactly playable, per se. It's like Olimar. Ya don't play as the Pikmin, so they're separate Spirits.
 
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Guynamednelson

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Sandbag's spirit battle is something rarely brought up in these debates. It's a fake home run contest and didn't prevent the real mode from coming back. I assume it's not brought up because it's not part of WoL and you'll have a Sandbag spirit before you play its battle.
 

Proceleon

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Sandbag's spirit battle is something rarely brought up in these debates. It's a fake home run contest and didn't prevent the real mode from coming back. I assume it's not brought up because it's not part of WoL and you'll have a Sandbag spirit before you play its battle.
..Really? You're using a mode coming back as a point?
There's a reason that's never brought up, it's because those two things aren't related in the slightest.
 

zferolie

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Yes, Pikachu did have a Spirit after launch, but this goes back to my point on Tennis Aces Mario. That Pikachu is the Partner Pikachu from Let's Go specifically i.e. a specific incarnation of Pikachu. Boiling it down to "that's Pikachu" isn't accurate, as it's more like "that's a Pikachu" as opposed to "that's the Pikachu." They're not even the same in their own game, so equating them is even more of a stretch.
There is no "a Geno" for example, there is only "the Geno." Link's a bit different, because they're mostly all different people, but that's a whole other can of worms.

Luma's not exactly playable, per se. It's like Olimar. Ya don't play as the Pikmin, so they're separate Spirits.
Mario tennis mario is still just Mario, just in a tennis outfit. Hes not a totally different character. Its LITTERALLY MARIO! You can then say that argument for other characters. Geno (SMRPG), shantae(half genie hero), rayman(Rayman Origins)

Honestly, i feel those are the only 3 spirits that have any chace myself, but you can make arguments for others.
 
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I think the Mewtwo and Lucas trophies are good examples for Sakurai and Nintendo keeping an open mind; so what if they were veterans? The trophies show they weren’t planned until later in development, when Mewtwo became bonus DLC and you had to pay for Lucas. They could’ve left the trophies out or take them out, but they didn’t. Basegame spirits would pretty much follow the same dang thing.

I’d say let people believe spirits can be promoted. I think they could, personally; honestly, a lot of the reasons people give for “they CAN’T be promoted!” sound like their own opinions based on looking too deep into “patterns” and whatever other crap that may or may not exist or even matter. Kinda makes debating start to sound annoying and pointless (and technically it is kinda pointless aside from being a sort of social activity). I understand why people don’t think they’ll happen, but it feels pretty dumb to try and force the view on other people and constantly claim people should temper their expectations as if most of us are going to throw a childish fit over a videogame in the end instead of being calmly disappointed maybe for a maximum of five minutes.

Yes, some people should learn to temper their expectations, but the majority is fine. Honestly, some people saying this seem like they should do the same thing.
 
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Proceleon

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Yup, the same way a DLC Fighter Spirit and a pre-existing Base Game Primary/Support Spirit wouldn't be related in the slightest!
Um, do you even hear yourself? They'd literally just be the same character. Not even an incarnation argument can get around that. It's not happening.
I think the Mewtwo and Lucas trophies are good examples for Sakurai and Nintendo keeping an open mind; so what if they were veterans? The trophies show they weren’t planned until later in development, when Mewtwo became bonus DLC and you had to pay for Lucas. They could’ve left the trophies out or take them out, but they didn’t. Basegame spirits would pretty much follow the same dang thing.
Debucked in two words: Veteran. Privilege. And again, a Spirit's gameplay function prevents it from being changed. No Spirits are being promoted, base game or otherwise.
 

Mushroomguy12

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Um, do you even hear yourself? They'd literally just be the same character. Not even an incarnation argument can get around that. It's not happening.
And the same character can have two different Spirits, the same way Mewtwo and Lucas had two different trophies. Butbutbut SPIriTS ARe NOT tROPhiEs! The Fighter Spirit functions the same way as a trophy. It is not used in gameplay, nor does it have a Spirit battle.

Debucked in two words: Veteran. Privilege. And again, a Spirit's gameplay function prevents it from being changed. No Spirits are being promoted, base game or otherwise.
Except you made both of those words up. And there can be two different spirits of the same character, what little gameplay function has absolutely no difference because they can just create a NEW DIFFERENT Spirit that is SEPARATE from the pre-existing one that functions as the Fighter Spirit that has NO GAMEPLAY FUNCTION.
 
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3DSNinja

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We don't have proof that they won't be promoted.

Plant was obviously planned for base game, as was Hero, which makes it clear that FP1 probably wasn't going to have any spirit upgrades, however FP2 can because it was planned much later in the development cycle.

Also, Luma has a normal spirit and he's playable.
 

Proceleon

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We don't have proof that they won't be promoted.

Plant was obviously planned for base game, as was Hero, which makes it clear that FP1 probably wasn't going to have any spirit upgrades, however FP2 can because it was planned much later in the development cycle.

Also, Luma has a normal spirit and he's playable.
Luma isn't Playable. You play as Rosalina and the Luma can be defeated.
And the same character can have two different Spirits, the same way Mewtwo and Lucas had two different trophies. Butbutbut SPIriTS ARe NOT tROPhiEs! The Fighter Spirit functions the same way as a trophy. It is not used in gameplay, nor does it have a Spirit battle.


Except you made both of those words up. And there can be two different spirits of the same character, what little gameplay function has absolutely no difference because they can just create a NEW DIFFERENT Spirit that is SEPARATE from the pre-existing one that functions as the Fighter Spirit that has NO GAMEPLAY FUNCTION.
Actually, I didn't. They were just brought back to please fans. Veteran privilege. Same reason Puff hasn't been booted already.
Maybe so, but that would still contradict the character already being in the game in their definitive forms. Geno's Spirit is the Geno, and they're not going to put two the Genos in the same game, because that role is already filled.

Also, sakurai outright said Spritis are a replacement for trophies, and the new trophoes, so saying spirits arent like trophies is a lie
Well, no actually. They replace Trophies in the sense that they're the main collectable. They're unlike Trophies in every other way.

This goes for the whole debate here, but the only way to prove Spirits can be promoted is for Sakurai to actually do it. Every single decision he's made so far as been evidence towards a no, so he'd have to go against everything he's previously established to make a Spirit Playable.
 

zferolie

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Luma isn't Playable. You play as Rosalina and the Luma can be defeated.

Actually, I didn't. They were just brought back to please fans. Veteran privilege. Same reason Puff hasn't been booted already.
Maybe so, but that would still contradict the character already being in the game in their definitive forms. Geno's Spirit is the Geno, and they're not going to put two the Genos in the same game, because that role is already filled.


Well, no actually. They replace Trophies in the sense that they're the main collectable. They're unlike Trophies in every other way.

This goes for the whole debate here, but the only way to prove Spirits can be promoted is for Sakurai to actually do it. Every single decision he's made so far as been evidence towards a no, so he'd have to go against everything he's previously established to make a Spirit Playable.
Technically you play as Rosalina AND Luma. The announcer says both. Its like saying you dont play as kazzoie with banjo and Kazooie. Pikmin though are different yes.

To be fair we thought we wouldnt get any 1st party in the first as it looked likenthey were prioritizing 3rd parties, and no one thought a western like banjo could happen. Things can change. I cannot in good confidence say spirits 100% deconfirm till nintendo or sakurai actually says otherwise
 

fogbadge

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This goes for the whole debate here, but the only way to prove Spirits can be promoted is for Sakurai to actually do it. Every single decision he's made so far as been evidence towards a no, so he'd have to go against everything he's previously established to make a Spirit Playable.
id say every decision hes made so far is evidence to him just doing what ever he wants and not fully thinking through the things he tells us
 

Proceleon

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Technically you play as Rosalina AND Luma. The announcer says both. Its like saying you dont play as kazzoie with banjo and Kazooie. Pikmin though are different yes.

To be fair we thought we wouldnt get any 1st party in the first as it looked likenthey were prioritizing 3rd parties, and no one thought a western like banjo could happen. Things can change. I cannot in good confidence say spirits 100% deconfirm till nintendo or sakurai actually says otherwise
No, Luma's still just a partially AI partner. It's not like Ice Climbers; R&L can exist separately just fine.
To be frank, the whole western/eastern argument was kinda dumb to begin with. Sure it's hard, but Microsoft had already worked with Nintendo, so I don't know where people were getting that from.
Common speculation was leaning towards third party, yeah, but to be perfectly fair there's much more third than first st this point, so I'm not surprised the Pass was mostly third party.
And I actually doubt Sakurai's ever going to comment on Spirits. Heck, I'm not even sure he's aware of the debate, but someone's gonna have egg on their face at the end of FP2.
id say every decision hes made so far is evidence to him just doing what ever he wants and not fully thinking through the things he tells us
Actually he's not doing whatever he wants, Nintendo's picking the Fighters like they did before, but I agree Sakurai should choose his wording a bit more carefully.
 

zferolie

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No, Luma's still just a partially AI partner. It's not like Ice Climbers; R&L can exist separately just fine.
To be frank, the whole western/eastern argument was kinda dumb to begin with. Sure it's hard, but Microsoft had already worked with Nintendo, so I don't know where people were getting that from.
Common speculation was leaning towards third party, yeah, but to be perfectly fair there's much more third than first st this point, so I'm not surprised the Pass was mostly third party.
And I actually doubt Sakurai's ever going to comment on Spirits. Heck, I'm not even sure he's aware of the debate, but someone's gonna have egg on their face at the end of FP2.

Actually he's not doing whatever he wants, Nintendo's picking the Fighters like they did before, but I agree Sakurai should choose his wording a bit more carefully.
Luma is partially ai but also a bunch what you do, but semantics.

Sakurai did comment on when people thought battlefield wii u was coming back after that 1 screenshot of the day last month. If he noticed that he for sure noticed the spirits questions
 
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Debucked in two words: Veteran. Privilege. And again, a Spirit's gameplay function prevents it from being changed. No Spirits are being promoted, base game or otherwise.
Their gameplay function doesn’t matter, they’re like advanced versions of stickers from Brawl and you can have multiple of each spirit so the lore is kinda broken (and if Tennis Mario, Classic Pit, Super Sonic, Kaptain K. Rool, etc. count as variations so no made-up rules are broken, then I guess Smash Bros. renders would count as variations too). I explained why them being a veteran doesn’t matter in this situation imo as putting them in as non-playable and then changing their mind later in development would be the same thing for basegame spirits (except their minds would be changed much later since FP1 was planned months before Ultimate released while FP2 was afterwards). Plus, if Nintendo wants a character that happens to already be a spirit, I really don’t think Sakurai is gonna say “nah can’t do that one fam.”

I don’t really want to continue this debate, though, but I feel as if you didn’t even read what I was saying. I understand why you have these opinions regarding spirits not getting promoted, and thinking that is of course perfectly fine like it should be, but don’t push the view in a way where it seems like you’re trying to shut down other people as if they’re stupid for thinking spirits can happen, as if them not happening is some 100% proven fact. We can argue without pretending things are in absolutes.
 
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Beth Uriel

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Technically you play as Rosalina AND Luma. The announcer says both. Its like saying you dont play as kazzoie with banjo and Kazooie. Pikmin though are different yes.

To be fair we thought we wouldnt get any 1st party in the first as it looked likenthey were prioritizing 3rd parties, and no one thought a western like banjo could happen. Things can change. I cannot in good confidence say spirits 100% deconfirm till nintendo or sakurai actually says otherwise
Pikmin aren't different either. It's a bad translation. The proper characters are Pikmin & Olimar and Pikmin & Alph. This is what the actual intention of the character is to begin with.

It's bad just like Duck Hunt Duo is(which is a trio, as the hunter is in the BG and a core part of the moveset. This is noted in the trailer as part of it. The summons are more like cameos in comparison).

But yeah, I agree with the second part; the whole "patterns" doesn't work very well as an argument to begin with. Reality is, they'll do what they want. They aren't following some pattern. They're selecting characters through a lot better logic than lolpng. Especially since the Trophies(which Spirits are a hard replacement for) didn't matter for any character. One can say Veterans, but that doesn't matter. Sakurai ignored the role in the game and still did it anyway. He didn't care anyway. These are insignificant roles in gameplay, and to be frank, these NPC roles don't inherently disconfirm anything either. They could possibly be the final choice Sakurai wants to go with, but we don't have any real evidence to suggest that. He's spoken better on AT's specifically being for characters(to note, this is some too) that were considered for playable but couldn't make it in. There's no need to pretend he meant that for all of them. This means that some are actual rejected characters, but that also means they could be re-considered for DLC.

Besides that, precedent is meaningless when there's no pattern to follow. This is the second game with DLC. He hasn't established anything beyond NPC roles aren't set in stone at best. Especially since he doesn't think Chrom being in Robin's Final Smash means anything. Likewise, Mario is in Piranha Plant's regular Victory Screen too. You think he cares about these kind of things as much as people make it sound like? No. You can argue there wasn't enough time to change Chrom out for someone. PP however isn't anywhere like that. That's beyond deliberate.

Speaking of PP, he may have been base game intended. Unlike Hero, who was outright said, we at best have implications, but not enough hard evidence either. The problem is it was worked on near the end game of development. However, many characters get worked on near the end too. Sometimes they're cut and don't come back(Ice Climbers). It could've been meant for a bonus DLC from the start. I mean, it makes sense to start working on the first DLC near the end of development when all other base game characters are done. Since obviously it was done during base game development, this means the Spirit would not be there(kind of a duh, since Sakurai did look at the spirits near the end of their choosing and made sure to actually figure out what had to be removed, like for licensing factors). In addition, of course it got a Guidance. That's when the Guidances were done to begin with, during base game. The other DLC got worked on way later. And while the file names might imply it, this tells us when they were worked on, not if it was going to stay in base. It's very easy for it to be always a last option DLC as a bonus for purchasing the game as early as possible, which is why it doesn't have extra stuff(Spirit Board, etc.).
 

Khao

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I feel like a lot of people look at this problem backwards. Sakurai is not gonna be like "BOOM! Idea! This character would be a great addition! Oh but wait they're already a spirit so it can't be done." Things are planned in advance, so that's never even going to be a scenario.

We should absolutely take spirits as deconfirmation to a certain extent, because Spirits are being created when DLC fighters are already decided or at least in consideration.

Before Smash Ultimate even came out, all Fighter's Pass characters were already set in stone. Including those characters as spirits just to release them as fighters makes no sense whatsoever. They had deals to use Persona, Dragon Quest, Banjo Kazooie, and SNK characters since before the game came out, but they purposefully hold out on them until the fighters to actually use them as Spirits, because that's simply the best possible option.

So at least during the first FP, we can look at spirits with complete confidence and say that they're not gonna be fighters. If you're already planning to create Shantae as a DLC fighter later down the line, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to include her as a Spirit in the base game.

For Fighter Pass 2? It's hard to say, because there's several unknowns. How early was the first wave of DLC decided? When this wave was decided, did they know there was a possibility for a second wave? Was that the only chance to add new characters as far as Sakurai knew?

If things were left open just in case, they would've had a list of possible candidates. They can look at this list and know which characters not to add as Spirits, in case they become fighters later on. If they're not chosen for fighters, they can add them as free updates. Which brings me to the other point. Expecting characters from Spirits that were added after release is just plain unreasonable. If a character is planned for DLC, they're not gonna add them as Spirits, because why the heck would they do that? They're not gonna do things one at a time. I'm pretty sure that whenever we get a Spirit update with a new series, it's because they know they don't have plans for a fighter from that series.

That said, there's the possibility that they decided on Fighter's Pass 1's characters while thinking that was gonna be it. No more updates. The roster's over. If that's the case, even if they have a massive list of possible fighter candidates for future additions (which they most likely do), they could've added them as Spirits under the assumption that no more fighters will be created. If so, when a FP2 was greenlit for development, it's equally unreasonable to think that they're gonna let themselves be limited by the current list of Spirits.

Still, I don't think the latter scenario is likely. I would imagine that they do have a list of acceptable candidates (especially when Sakurai has said as much before, the first wave was selected from a list given to him by Nintendo), and as long as there's a possibility that these characters can become playable, they'd likely want to avoid using them for anything else, including Spirits. I wouldn't be surprised if the post-launch spirits coincide with fighters they considered as a possibility, but weren't realized for whatever reason (other picks, failed negotiations, etc...)

In either case, it's important to remember that things are always planned in advance. They knew about which characters they wanted to add months before we even knew they wanted to add more characters. If they're adding Spirits after the fact, they wouldn't pick Spirits among planned fighters because it just doesn't make sense. Plans can change to a certain extent, but I wouldn't count on it.
 
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Proceleon

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Their gameplay function doesn’t matter, they’re like advanced versions of stickers from Brawl and you can have multiple of each spirit so the lore is kinda broken (and if Tennis Mario, Classic Pit, Super Sonic, Kaptain K. Rool, etc. count as variations so no made-up rules are broken, then I guess Smash Bros. renders would count as variations too). I explained why them being a veteran doesn’t matter in this situation imo as putting them in as non-playable and then changing their mind later in development would be the same thing for basegame spirits (except their minds would be changed much later since FP1 was planned months before Ultimate released while FP2 was afterwards). Plus, if Nintendo wants a character that happens to already be a spirit, I really don’t think Sakurai is gonna say “nah can’t do that one fam.”

I don’t really want to continue this debate, though, but I feel as if you didn’t even read what I was saying. I understand why you have these opinions regarding spirits not getting promoted, and thinking that is of course perfectly fine like it should be, but don’t push the view in a way where it seems like you’re trying to shut down other people as if they’re stupid for thinking spirits can happen, as if them not happening is some 100% proven fact. We can argue without pretending things are in absolutes.
That's not entirely accurate. With the exceptions of Cloud, Robin & WFT, Fighter Spirits have the exclusive feature of having their series artwork AND Smash artwork, so Smash versions wouldn't be variations because they're literally filed under the same Spirit.

But yeah, I do think this is going in circles. I don't just have these viewpoints just because. Before FP1 was complete, I would've argued in favour of Spirits, but it's become apparent that I was wrong and that there's a clear divide between Fighter and Spirit that they're trying to keep in place. I've seen the evidence, I've seen the pattern, and I've seen the method, and it's proven that it's not happening, at least as far as the current climate goes.
In the hypothetical situation that a Spirit does get in, however unlikely, I'll take the L, but simply making up a way to do it isn't evidence. I need something that has tangibly happened that can point to Spirits being a possibility, which currently doesn't exist. And no, Sakurai not saying anything isn't evidence either, that's pure speculation.
 
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RileyXY1

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That's not entirely accurate. With the exceptions of Cloud & WFT, Fighter Spirits have the exclusive feature of having their series artwork AND Smash artwork, so Smash versions wouldn't be variations because they're literally filed under the same Spirit.

But yeah, I do think this is going in circles. I don't just have these viewpoints just because. Before FP1 was complete, I would've argued in favour of Spirits, but it's become apparent that I was wrong and that there's a clear divide between Fighter and Spirit that they're trying to keep in place. I've seen the evidence, I've seen the pattern, and I've seen the method, and it's proven that it's not happening, at least as far as the current climate goes.
In the hypothetical situation that a Spirit does get in, however unlikely, I'll take the L, but simply making up a way to do it isn't evidence. I need something that has tangibly happened that can point to Spirits being a possibility, which currently doesn't exist. And no, Sakurai not saying anything isn't evidence either, that's pure speculation.
Robin also only uses his Ultimate render for his Fighter Spirit too.
 

fogbadge

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Actually he's not doing whatever he wants, Nintendo's picking the Fighters like they did before, but I agree Sakurai should choose his wording a bit more carefully.
no nintendo suggests the characters and sakurai either agrees to them or not but maintains the right to veto them, he explained this the first time it was brought up, saying nintendo picks the characters is just a simplified way of explaining things. sakurai can still stop any character he doesnt want in smash
 

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no nintendo suggests the characters and sakurai either agrees to them or not but maintains the right to veto them, he explained this the first time it was brought up, saying nintendo picks the characters is just a simplified way of explaining things. sakurai can still stop any character he doesnt want in smash
I knew that, and you know I knew that.
 

Proceleon

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i didnt, you said "nintendo picks the characters" while point out that sakurai doesnt do whatever he wants which would suggest you thought nintendo made sakurai include these characters. i had no way of knowing that you were aware that it was a mutual decision
I am familiar with the process.
Actually, If Sakurai had free roam we'd probably have Geno playable by now. ^^
 
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Gonna leave this here:
Oh great, this again. Alright, it's time to put this terrible arguement in it's grave once and for all.
First off, there is nothing officially stating that a character being a spirit, an Assist Trophy, a boss, a Mii Figher Costume, or part of someone's moveset (a Final Smash, for example) cannot also be a fighter or anything else. While it is usually the case that characters who are designated as one of those are only used for that purpose, there is nothing set in stone that says they can't be anything else. After all, we have plenty of examples of this not being the case: Chrom is still part of Robin's Final Smash despite also being an Echo Fighter. King K. Rool, Isabelle, and Chrom are fighers despite having Mii Fighter Costumes still in the game. Rathalos is both a boss in World of Light and some character's Classic Mode playthroughs, as well as an Assist Trophy.

Second, Spirits aren't the literal soul of a character. There are spirits for yoga poses, for crying out loud! Y'know, abstract concepts that don't have a soul in any way, shape, or form? Do yoga poses have souls? Furthermore, there are three spirits for King K. Rool in different outfits. Are you telling me that they're three different characters? If different outfits/artwork is enough to be a different Spirit, couldn't they just use Geno's star form (titled ♥♪!?) as the basis for his Fighter Spirit instead? Or is that considered cheating?

Third, I don't know how long you've been around with regards to Smash speculation, but before Mewtwo and Lucas came back as DLC for Smash 4, A LOT of people considered trophies a death sentence for characters in the same way you and others consider spirits. Go back far enough, specifically around the release of Smash 4 on 3DS, and you'll find plenty of people who genuinely believed that a trophy meant no fighter. And to their credit, they kind of had a good reason to believe that.

In Melee, your fighter would start every fight as a trophy before losing the stand, in essence coming to life. In Brawl, a character's trophy was considered their body, and if they're touched by a living fighter while in their inert state, they would reawaken. While certain characters would be used for multiple trophies (Kirby for example used to have trophies showcasing all of his abilities, both from his home series and in Smash), it was generally accepted that these trophies were the characters souls, and since fighters have their own trophies, to already have a trophy in the game meant you couldn't also have a fighter trophy.

Spirits are much the same thing as trophies from prior Smash games. You may like to think they're different because of their whispy, ethereal design, but they're not different at all. So if trophies in Smash aren't considered enough to prevent a character from becoming a fighter, then spirits also aren't enough to prevent a character from becoming a fighter. And let's be real, do you really think Sakurai is going to not include a character because someone on the dev team had already included him as a goddamn PNG File? "Well I could include Geno as a DLC Fighter to please longtime fans, but the group of employees I got to work on the Spirits already used his PNG for a spirit, so I guess I can't do that. Too bad I don't have the authority to overrule their descision because I would've loved to include him, but oh well! better luck next time, I guess!"
 
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At this point Spirits still most likely deconfirm, considering the rule only got amplified with each update instead of getting a hit.

The core of spirit theory is not the artwork, but how Spirits are named in the first place.

People love to bring up the fact that there where plenty of alternate spirits in the basegame but all these spirits are named differently.

The real Link is called "Link" and thats his fighter spirit and other Link spirits are named after the Link from that game (For example "Link (Ocarina of Time)"

The Link rule also applies to all the other characters like Samus, Wii Fit Trainer and King K.rool who also have alternate spirits, and it even goes as far that if an alternate form is a costume option like Meta Ridley, Koopalings etc. they are labeled as Fighter spirits to (for example if "Kaptain K.rool would have been a costume, it would also be considerd a Fighter spirit, and DLC has amplified this rule anyway with Joker's student costume and the 4 Dragon Quest heroes, following the same ruling)

Also my Link example got amplified by the Lets go spirits and the Three Houses spirits, in which once again they named the new Pikachu spirit "Partner Pikachu" to differ it from the "Pikachu" Fighter spirit and while the Three Houses update did show that they are willing to change the naming of a spirit, the only thing they changed was the Hilda and Dimitri spirit, to differ it from the base game spirits of characters that share the same name and come from a different franchise.

So yeah the only thing to shatter this theory is if we get a spirited character and the fighter spirit either shares the name of the base game spirit or they made changes to either the base or the fighter spirit to differ those spirits from each other.

For example lets take Rex. Both spirits need to be called "Rex" or Sakurai changes one of them to "Rex & Pyra"

In this scenario Rex still has a chance(but he has another hurdle to overcome which will be my next point) because, calling his fighter spirit "Rex & Pyra" keeps the whole theory intact still and the vanilla "Rex" spirit then would act the same way as other alternate form spirits, but I feel other characters are less lucky like Rayman for example, because then both spirits once again need to be called "Rayman"(can't really apply the Pyra trick to him, unless they change the basegame Rayman spirit to what game he comes from), so while its offcourse not impossible, you need to realise this is the scenario that needs to happen to make a spirited character playable.

Pokemon is also the only franchise I can see breaking the Event spirit rule, because Pokemon is a rulebreaker in general and the most likely Gen 8 reps aren't spirits yet and while it did have an event, they can still draw enough spirits for their spirit board by using the upcoming SwSh DLC as source material, which is what I would consider a problem for some characters to (this is the hurdle for Rex I mentioned in my previous example, because Xenoblade 2 already got its core stuff as basegame spirits)

To give you an example how easy its still is to draft enough material for the Gen 8 spirit board:
Cinderace as the fighter spirit
Rillaboom, Intellion, Wooloo, Toxitricity, Kubfu(with Urshifu being its upgradedable form) and you can fill up the rest with Dynamax forms for example.
 
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