Do Spirits STILL deconfirm fighters? Can an ARMS rep change things!?

Can Spirits still be DLC fighters?


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#1
After the events of the 11/1/18 Smash Ultimate Direct, there has been controversy as to whether or not the new Spirits deconfirm fighters.

The purpose of this thread is to hear both sides of the argument and gain a better idea if characters who have been confirmed to be Spirits, such as Shantae, Geno, and the like, are out of the running for DLC in Smash Bros Ultimate.

Also, regarding Vergeben and any other leaks in general, please try not to mention the specifics on the characters that got leaked (i.e. company, franchise, name, etc.) without using a spoiler.

Edit: I made my decision that Spirits DO deconfirm, and decided to make a thread about it, thinking that the 2 concepts were different enough to warrant having separate threads (I didn't realize that they, in fact, weren't). I decided to put why I think they DO deconfirm here:

Note: This is from before DLC beyond the fighter pass was confirmed, so it may be a little outdated.

Note 2: Since this was before Fighter Pass Vol. 2, this was also before the confirmation of an unknown ARMS fighter.

After the events of the Smash Bros direct on November 1st, 2018, there has been some debate on whether or not Spirits deconfirm. The general consensus of the community is that they don’t and that people should continue rooting for characters like Shantae, Bandana Dee, Geno and Rayman. However, I am going to go over why being a PNG file is just as bad as being an Assist Trophy in Smash Bros Ultimate.

Reggie’s words about Joker:

First of all, we know who the first character of the DLC fighter pass is: Joker from Persona 5. While he doesn’t provide any evidence that Spirits deconfirm in and of himself, what Reggie Fils-Amié, (Edit: Former) President of Nintendo of America, said about Joker that does. Reggie, shortly after Joker’s reveal, said the following:

“And so this [Joker] give you a flavor about how we’re approaching the DLC. So the DLC: there’s going to be five characters. Each character will come with a stage; it will come with a collection of music. These are going to be characters that are new to the series just like Joker from Persona 5: characters that you would not anticipate to be in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.”

There are 3 parts of Reggies statement that are important here:

And so this [Joker] give you a flavor about how we’re approaching the DLC”:

Reggie is saying that the other DLC fighters are going to be like Joker. But the question is: how are they going to be like him? The most likely answer is that they are Third Party characters. This is because of the precedent that was set by the DLC from Smash 4 with Ryu, Cloud, Corrin and Bayonetta. All but one of them are Third Party, so the first DLC pick for this game being Third Party coupled with the fact that Reggie said that the other fighters are going to be like him implies that the DLC for this game will follow the Third Party precedent set by the previous game and will be mostly, if not completely Third Party, which is bad news for characters like Bandana Dee, Elma and Octolings.

“characters that you would not anticipate to be in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate”:

Reggie said that the fighters would not be anticipated. To anticipate could mean “to expect” or “to look forward to” (as in “to want”), or even both. Assuming Reggie means that they would be unexpected newcomers, that instantly throws any characters previously perceived by the community as likely out of the running, such as Geno and Bandana Dee. Additionally, it follows the idea that I mentioned earlier that the DLC would follow the Third Party precedent of Smash 4. Conversely, there is the possibility that Reggie is saying that the characters are not characters who are wanted or highly requested. This means that all of the characters who were previously considered contenders to get in due to them being highly requested would not be making it into the roster. Edit: :ultbanjokazooie: are in, so it means no characters previously considered likely.

“These are going to be characters that are new to the series”:

The other two statements don’t necessarily mean that Spirits deconfirm; only that fan-favorites and characters that were previously expected are now out of the running. However, this statement actually provides evidence that Spirits, in particular, deconfirm. Notice how he said “new to the series” and didn’t simply say “newcomers” or “new challengers”. He’s trying to say that there will be no fighters in the DLC pass that have appeared in a Smash Bros. game in any other way, shape or form. No Poké Balls, no Assist Trophies, and no Spirits.


Sakurai, Nintendo News, & the Announcer’s Descriptions of Spirits:

Sakurai:


“In this mysterious world, the unspeakable happens: many beloved characters lose their physical forms. All of them, except the fighters, are turned into Spirits, unable to return to the real world"

The Announcer:


“What’s this? Characters other than fighters? Must be SPIRITS!”

Nintendo Switch News (on World of Light):

You can’t play as a spirit, but you can equip them…”

Firstly, let’s get to the easily understandable part. All 3 sources clarify that Spirits are separate from fighters. Simply put, spirits and fighters are two separate entities. Fighters are playable characters; Spirits are not.


Secondly, there’s a separation that goes deeper into the lore. Before stating that Spirits can’t return to the real world, Sakurai mentions how fighters are toys that want to get back to the real world. Spirits cannot do this, because they do not have a toy form that they can take in the real world. They are Spirits and not Fighters because they don’t have a body at all to return to. While Poké Balls and Assist Trophies have bodies, they cannot maintain those physical forms long enough to return the real world, since they despawn after a short period of time. Regardless, the divide between fighters and spirits is clear.

There are Fighter Spirits, but I will address those and why they don’t help the situation of the other Spirits in the Counterarguments section.


DLC was chosen during development:

Sakurai’s First Tweet about DLC:

Shortly after the November 1st Direct, Sakurai Tweeted the following:


He states that the DLC Line-up was already chosen and finalized, despite being before the game released. Since it takes time for the legal rights to the Third Party characters need to be obtained, the DLC fighters were most likely chosen during development. The evidence for this is:

No Pirahna Plant Spirit:

Pirahna Plant is a Fighter, so if he’s shown as a Spirit that can be equipped (or as a Master Spirit), we can know for sure that Spirits do not deconfirm. After all, it’s pretty reasonable for him to be a spirit, since he’s a generic enemy. Only problem is, he’s not.


Sakurai’s Second Tweet about DLC:


Why would Sakurai tell us American fans to stop supporting our most wanted characters? Because 1: he’s not taking fan requests into account for DLC and 2: The DLC picks have already been chosen. If he wasn’t so set on having no fan favorites in the game, then why would he go out of his way to make sure as many as possible are Spirits?

Counterarguments:

“Sprits are like Trophies!”

No they’re not. In order to explain the crucial difference, let’s explain what a Trophy is (or was) and what a Spirit is. A Trophy is a 3D model that allows the player to take a break from the fight and learn more about characters from certain games. Spirits are PNG files that give fighters boosts in battle. Knowing that, the difference is pretty clear. Unlike trophies, Spirits actually have a role on the battlefield, since they’re meant to be a way to implement more characters into the game, just like Poké Balls and Assist Trophies, so they aren’t the same. In fact, it’s worse than trophies, since they have a non-fighter role on the battlefield.

“Lucas and Mewtwo were trophies and made it back!”:

Yes, but Spirits are different than trophies, as I said before. Additionally, all of the DLC newcomers in Smash 4 were not previously in the game in any other form. So maybe it wasn’t that trophies didn’t deconfirm. Maybe it was that trophies DID deconfirm, and that Veterans are the exceptions, rather than the rule.

“Sakurai wouldn’t say “No. They can’t be in the game, because they’re PNG files”!”

Yes, but you’re looking at it backwards. Since spirits are easy to develop and it is entirely possible for them to be chosen after fighters, it is likely that Sakurai added those Spirits to the game with the mindset of “They’re spirits because they’re not DLC Fighters”, rather than the other way around.

“{Fighter} has a Spirit!”:

Those are Fighter Spirits, which are completely different from the other kinds of Spirits. Fighter Spirits are Spirits that do nothing. You can’t equip them like Primary or Support Spirits, and you can’t use a facility or service with their help like a Master Spirit. All you can do is look at their artwork. The spirits are nothing but a reward for clearing that character’s Classic route or buying them in the shop. Nothing else.

“There’s a Spirit that’s a form of {Fighter}!”:

OK, but those are either different iterations of the character or not that character at all. Saying that Kaptain K. Rool is the same as King K. Rool would be like saying that Dr. Mario is the same as Mario or that Toon Link is the same as Link. Each is treated as a separate character.



There is a lot of evidence that supports the idea that Spirits deconfirm characters, while there is no evidence that says otherwise without a reasonable doubt. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it’s pretty safe to say the likes of Shantae, Bandana Dee, Rayman, and Geno are just as much a lost cause as the likes of Waluigi, Shadow and Isaac.
Edit: So now we know that there are Fighters beyond the fighter pass. The question is, are spirits eligible for those slots?
 
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dakotaisgreat

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#3
No, they do not de-confirm characters, as shown in the attached pic, Daisy has a spirit.

Sakurai said pretty much anyone is possible for DLC. There were over 700 trophies in the last game, if there's even half the amount of spirits in Ultimate then they would be stupid to de-confirm literally hundreds of characters for no reason by making them spirits. Some of the spirits shown obviously are spirits because they couldn't be a playable character, like the legendary bird trio of Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres, but I'm sure that outside of that everyone is fine and being a spirit neither hurts nor helps their chances of being a character. In fact, being a spirit might help, it shows that you're on the dev team's radar (K. Rool and Chrom Mii costumes in the last game).
 

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#4
I'm gonna say it again, spirits are replacements for trophies in Ultimate. People were getting super disappointed/bummed out when this mode was revealed, and it hurt to watch some of the reactions. In our RTC thread, every character was removed from the nominations list because "literally everyone" was disconfirmed. Mewtwo and Lucas were trophies in Smash 4, both of which later became DLC characters. I still have hope for characters like Shantae and Geno, because spirits are just trophies with special power ups. Also, King K. Rool, Daisy, and Wii Fit Trainer also have spirits. I rest my case, and I will continue to support Shantae and Geno for DLC.
 
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#5
If anything I think Spirits prove that DLC was selected after the fact and not alongside the base roster like some believe. I mean otherwise like everyone has said, everyone is deconfirmed by the game logic. I wouldn't let it dismay you, as we are really in uncharted territory here.
 

Rayleigh

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#6
As others have stated, spirits represent a character from a specific appearance (EX. Dixie Kong's is from DKC 2, then evolve into DKC 3. But is not indicative of Dixie Kong in her entirety as she appears in DKC:R and beyond). Then, of course, there is the 'Already playable characters have spirit versions too' which is the same as the Mii Costumes. Then you factor in the 'Lucas and Mewtwo' trophy incident of Smash 4 and you've a solid basis of information.

Does all of this deconfirm the deconfirmation? Nope. Nor does this make the de-confirmation true. It just means we're all in the whacky world of Sakurai-Land. So...buckle up your life vest and keep the faith, because we're sailing uncharted waters.
 

Miifighters4Smash5

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#7
Geno was not a Spirit; He was an Icon in the Online Mode(No Spirits Allowed); As Such, He still has a chance at becoming DLC; and even if he WAS A spirit; so are Daisy, King K Rool, And the Male Wii Fit Trainer, and THEY'RE playable characters!!
 

Wyoming

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#9
Conceptually trophies and stickers aren't the same, though. Spirits are meant to replicate a character's personality and traits without them physically being there themselves.

I think the fact that Sakurai hyped up their involvement as souls means they weren't chosen for DLC...for now.
 

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#11
I don't think being a spirit eliminates a character for consideration as DLC. As said before, there are playable characters that already appear as spirits like the aforementioned Daisy.

Being a Mii Costume doesn't necessarily mean deconfirmation either. Recall that SSB4 had costumes based on some of the playable characters like Link and Samus.
 
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Miifighters4Smash5

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#12
I don't think being a spirit eliminates a character for consideration as DLC. As said before, there are playable characters that already appear as spirits like the aforementioned Daisy.

Being a Mii Costume doesn't necessarily mean deconfirmation either. Recall that SSB4 had costumes based on some of the playable characters like Link and Samus.
Yeah; and some of the characters that were costumes in the previous game; I.E. Chrom, Inklings, King K. Rool, Isabelle, became playable characters in SSB Ultimate!!
 

Wyoming

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#13
Yeah; and some of the characters that were costumes in the previous game; I.E. Chrom, Inklings, King K. Rool, Isabelle, became playable characters in SSB Ultimate!!
...not in the same game as their costume, though.

The way the entire Rex costume was handled makes me think this is the best he'll get. And if Rex gets that treatment so will every new costume.
 
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#14
I've heard stuff about fighter spirits, but I'm confused as to which they are and how they function. I've heard that that Daisy is a fighter spirit, although I can't tell the difference. Can someone clear this up for me?
 

RileyXY1

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#15
I've heard stuff about fighter spirits, but I'm confused as to which they are and how they function. I've heard that that Daisy is a fighter spirit, although I can't tell the difference. Can someone clear this up for me?
Fighter Spirits are Spirits based on actual playable characters. You can't equip Fighter Spirits.
 

Nimbostratus

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#19
For this first (and potentially only) fighter pack? I lean towards it being a disconfirmation. It seems that these fighters have probably been planned for some time, and I don't think they'd have equipable Spirits if there were already plans in place for them to be DLC. I guess a Spirit upgrade is more likely than other NPC roles, since it's something that could be tossed in real quick as opposed to an AT that shows quite a bit of effort went into something other than a playable role, but I still wouldn't count on it. But that's just my guess.

In general, though, and for potential future DLC that has not yet been decided... Nobody knows.
And it's the same thing as any trophy, assist trophy, sticker, or stage element. Those roles indicate that there weren't initial plans in place to add these characters, but there is nothing mechanically stopping the developers from changing their minds during DLC. Nothing. NPCs have been made playable through DLC in other games before. This isn't some bizarre concept.
"B-but Smash 4 didn't do it!" ... Yes, and Smash 4 is one game. I will grant it is a good starting place to suggest that an AT promotion might be unlikely and that a regular trophy promotion is fine, but it is not enough to make a rule.
"B-but it would look odd for characters to have both playable and non-playable roles!" Well, no one is going to cry over a sticker or AT being removed** if the developers really cared about that "problem", but considering Chrom is still in Robin's Final Smash, it looks like isn't that big of a deal to them.

So is it a disconfirmation? The answer is certainly either "yes" or "no", but we have no way to know at the moment because, as I said, Smash 4 DLC isn't enough evidence. Could some types of NPC roles be more likely to be upgraded than others? Probably, and I do think that Spirits is on the higher end of chances, but we can't predict 0% or 100% for any of them. Some fans think it's fine, others don't, but we don't decide- the developers do. And until Sakurai comes out and says one way or another on how they feel about it, to assume we absolutely know what counts as a DLC disconfirmation is frankly rather presumptuous on our part.

So keep supporting your characters, regardless of what role they get in the base game. Could it be a futile effort? ... Well, yes. But it also might not be, despite what some poster on Smashboards might think. It's worth the "risk" to let Nintendo know that your character is still popular.

** A stage element could be harder to remove or replace, I'll grant. For example, the Reset Bomb Forest just wouldn't make sense of Viridi isn't there. Even so, as said above, the developers just might not care that much.
 
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#20
I believe we'll have to wait until the game drops in order to tell if spirits deconfirm fighters. It's as simple as finding out if a generic Pirahna Plant has a spirit. This will pretty much tell us for sure
 
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#21
...not in the same game as their costume, though.

The way the entire Rex costume was handled makes me think this is the best he'll get. And if Rex gets that treatment so will every new costume.
Strange, because to me it seemed more like a "sorry he wasn't in base roster, here's the reason why. Hope this costume holds you over until we are able to finish him several months from now." Am I the only one who thought this?
 
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#22
Strange, because to me it seemed more like a "sorry he wasn't in base roster, here's the reason why. Hope this costume holds you over until we are able to finish him several months from now." Am I the only one who thought this?
I suppose that would be possible... if we weren't getting all our Xenoblade 2 content now. Sakurai made a point to show even though it's not repped with a fighter, it's receiving content. We got multiple costumes, a few music tracks, and spirits. To me, it seems like he's heard the massive support he has, and is trying to give his fans something as DLC had already been decided on and he couldn't make it. If DLC was only being thought of now, Springman and Rex would've been obvious choices with how popular they are, and yet things are looking down for them.
 
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#23
True, but really all DLC will add is a character, stage, and music. The XC2 songs added were minimal and none of it original. We don't know how much music will be added with each DLC so I don't see it as a detriment. Personally I think Sakurai is being smart and instead of categorizing content and holding some back, which punishes fans who can/won't buy DLC, he's giving us what he can now while preparing the real meat for later.

I don't know, maybe I'll be seen as crazy for saying this, but I think people are focusing on false signs. There has never been a precedent that base content excludes DLC potential. Sakurai has stated on multiple times that he doesn't consider DLC until after the base game is done. This is proven in smash 4 with the trophies for Mewtwo and Lucas.

Look at it from a developers point of view, it is important to set up a game plan at the start of development to ensure that you stay on track for the release deadline. Character choices are accounted here because each character has different levels of complexity that demand a different amount of man hours. DLC on the other hand has no effect on the release of the initial game and thus does not need to be part of the initial planning cycle. It can, yes, but it wouldn't serve any function (and is likely to hinder creative potential). Also given that spirits have seemingly deconfirmed any imaginable character, it would imply that this was not the case, but rather that while working on the game, DLC wasn't even considered until at least late into production.

Now in regards to DLC, Sakurai devoted time expressly to apologizing to the Xenoblade 2 fans for the lack of Rex's inclusion when talking about DLC. This at least shows that had the plan been developed later, that Rex would have been a high possibility to being a newcomer. Most people listening to the direct aren't avid smash fans and probably didn't know about the 2015 project plan deadline so this makes sense. What wouldn't make sense is Sakurai not explicitly mentioning that DLC won't have more modern fighters alongside this to tamper expectations for other recent characters (assuming that's how DLC was decided). Or rather to make it more blunt, to plan DLC so early to the point where it can't be used to promote a more recent game (much like Corrin did).

When I look at the whole picture thusly, things seem to point more to that clip being in favor of Rex's inclusion as DLC and not the opposite.
 
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#24
I was on the RTC thread yesterday, and the topic was about deconfirmations, so I talked why I think spirits DO deconfirm fighters, including some things that weren't discussed here yet:

1:Let me debunk some of the main counterarguments:

A::ultdaisy: Fighter Spirit: Fighter Spirits act differently from normal spirits in that they cannot be upgraded or equipped; only looked at. Because of this, you can't just convert a normal spirit to a fighter spirit.

B: :ultkrool::ultkirby::ultwiifittrainer: Spirits: Each of these spirits are a different version of an existing character. Their spirit counterparts are eached treated as separate from their original character. Kaptain K. Rool is King's alternate Identity, like Dr. Mario. The WFT ones are just embodiments of one of their poses. And Kirby is treated as a different character, just like Kaptain and Dr. Because of their fundemental differences, they're not treated as Fighter Spirits.

C1: :ultmewtwo::ultlucas: Trophies: These 2 came back to Smash 4 after being trophies in Smash 4. This debunks trophy deconfirmations, right? Not necessarily. I think of Lucas and Mewtwo as the exceptions rather than the rule, since they both were already veterans. A newcomer has never sucessfully made the jump in the same game, just like Mii outfits.

C2: Spirits being the same as Trophies: Trophies are figures of characters that don't have any role on the battlefield, while Spirits are the souls of those characters that do have a role on the battlefield. Sakurai even stated that he wanted to incorporate characters outside of Fighters and ATs on the battlefield.

2: DLC was already picked: If Sakurai had plans of making a certain character DLC, then he would have kept them from becoming Spirits.

3: Hitagi. Hitagi shares Vergeben's sources and confirmed that Spirits will not become fighters. After all Verge has gotten right, it wouldn't make sense for Verge, Hitagi and their multiple mutual sources to be frauds.
 
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#25
tbh trying to find ways to disconfirm characters get's annoying imo; Spirits don't disconfirm characters, it all depends on Sakurai, his team, and Nintendo; if they wanted to, they could go ahead and make a Spirit character become DLC; it's not like Spirits were last-minute additions with DLC fresh on the mind or something, they even seem like they just tried to add as many characters as they could...

Really, all these disconfirmation theories and such are getting ridiculous...
 
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KingofUSA85

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#33
I wouldnt say it deconfirms them but its not a good sign. Especially for the first 5 DLC fighters. Spirits, costumes and even assist trophies being upgraded are more likely If they do additional DLC beyond
 

Rie Sonomura

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#37
Unless DLC is gonna be ALL third parties this time which I sincerely doubt, no. Spirits are not a deconfirmation.
 
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zferolie

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#38
With Rayman also being a spirit, and he seems a likely choice, I really don't see spirits deconfirming characters. If so then Sakurai litterally has no 1st party choices(even Bandana dee is a spirit).

Most likely, he knew who would not be in base game as playable, so made spirits of characters he still wanted base game representation.
 

RileyXY1

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#40
Unless DLC is gonna be ALL third parties this time which I sincerely doubt, no. Spirits are not a deconfirmation.
Yeah. If Spirits are deconfirmations then that would mean that DLC will be entirely comprised of third parties without representation in the base roster and upcoming first party characters like a FE 3 Houses character or a Gen 8 Pokemon. I do not see this as realistic.
 
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