Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[WahHahaha]

"This game sold worse than Pokemon so it's unpopular," tells you that the argument isn't in good faith lol.

That isn't what I said, I said it sold less, so it shouldn't be in the same tier as pokemon. A "hard shill" is for something that's from a smaller franchise, a "soft shill" is for a game that is bigger.

All I told him to do was move Pyra/Mythra and Min Min into the same tier as Byleth and Corrin, which seems like it should be fair enough since their franchises are just as big, fire emblem might even be bigger at this point.

 

[Idon]

I think that was more of an assumption on Sakurai's part, like he would have included Rex because it's a character that he thinks Nintendo would have wanted to add, which is clearly true since Nintendo ended up picking him.

Correct... because it did well.
At the time of that direct, XC2 had already sold 1 million copies at the beginning of the year.
By the time FP2 was announced, it had reached 1.7 million. It's safe to assume that by that time, it was a mutually beneficial relationship.

It's certainly more than what XC1 and X had sold.

 

[WahHahaha]

Correct... because it did well.
At the time of that direct, XC2 had already sold 1 million copies at the beginning of the year.
By the time FP2 was announced, it had reached 1.7 million. It's safe to assume that by that time, it was a mutually beneficial relationship.

It's certainly more than what XC1 and 2 had sold.

And Pokemon sells 10 million on a bad day, Fire Emblem sells more than both Xenoblade and ARMS.

Please tell me exactly how your tiers make sense.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That isn't what I said, I said it sold less, so it shouldn't be in the same tier as pokemon. A "hard shill" is for something that's from a smaller franchise, a "soft shill" is for a game that is bigger.

Well in that case you're using two different definitions: In the list, a "hard shill" is listed as a character that was added when they were 2 years or younger, and a "soft shill" is when the character was 2-5 years old at the time of their inclusion. There isn't any correlation between how big the series are. In fact, some of the series are in multiple tiers (Ex. Pokémon is in all 3).

Was shill the correct term to use here? Probably not since it's taken the focus away from the intent of the list due to how loaded it is, but...it's whatever I guess.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Christ, you'd think people would just realize that the person who deliberately misreads arguments isn't worth dealing with when they misread an entire tier list about how old/new they are as sales driven. Stop taking the bait, it's tiring seeing people keep an argument for multiple pages that has no reason lasting for more than 2 posts

 

[Idon]

And Pokemon sells 10 million on a bad day, Fire Emblem sells more than both Xenoblade and ARMS.

Please tell me exactly how your tiers make sense.

Don't see how the sales of different series is relevant. Their game had sold well, the fact that other series sell better doesn't really change their success or diminish their far higher chance of a Smash inclusion.

Those tiers make sense because they're based on time.
And unlike you or me or people in general, time isn't opinionated or subjective. It just measures the specific periods between events. You can't argue against the evidence.

If you want to tier things by sales then you run into the problem of something like Fire Emblem Three Houses selling 3 million and Xenoblade Chronicles 2 selling 2 million, making it such that Byleth isn't a shill pick but Pyra and Mythra are... despite the fact Byleth was chosen before his game had come out. By that logic too, Byleth quite literally is less of a shill pick than several decades old characters.

So in conclusion Zelda, Fire Emblem and Pokemon are the shillingest shillers since shilling came to shill town

Actually Zelda's only soooooft shill considering I'm terrible at math and had to fix the list.
FE for sure.
And honestly, I think outside of gen 1/2, Pokemon's got quite a bit of time between it and Smash (granted they are one of the few characters that do get chosen before their game comes out, making them a shill by definition and not by that list's standards).

 

[---]

It's interesting to compare singular factors character by character and series by series but I feel this is a fallacy that speculators continuously fall into. Sales, relevancy, promotion, etc. I'm surprised (well not really) to see tensions high.

Shilling I feel is a fairly negative term, especially given Smash is "Promotion: the Video Game."

Sales I feel has been beaten to death by people with more time on their hands. Time I ironically feel is beaten by relevancy arguments while relevancy is beaten by time arguments. lol

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Here's a topic for you guys to chew on in the morning:

So Melty Blood: Type Lumina has characters called Hisui, Kohaku, and Hisui & Kohaku on its roster, with the latter being a fusion of the former two. This got me thinking: What interesting ideas could we get by mixing existing characters on Super Smash Bros.'s roster? Functionally, this could be done any number of ways from fairly normal characters like Duck Hunt to very strange characters like the Ice Climbers, to swappable characters like Pyra/Mythra.

Some example fusions:

• Mario & Luigi
• Donkey Kong & Diddy Kong
• Zelda/Sheik (kind of cheating but you get the idea)

Oh, and because I know that these types of characters wouldn't be preferred over characters that are actually new entities by you guys, let's assume that these hypothetical characters appear out of the ether and onto the roster without any development time or resources spent on them; I think the conversation would be best if it were about the mechanical ideas/theory crafting rather than "would it be a good/favorable idea?" since the majority opinion is highly likely to just be "no" in most cases. In other words, it's a dumb idea but let's see how far we can take it anyway.

Also, completely bonkers combinations like Sephiroth & Pichu get bonus points from me. Go ham.

 

[ForsakenM]

Man, c'mon Nintendo.

Are you waiting for OLED and Dread?

The time is ripe!

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Here's a topic for you guys to chew on in the morning:

So Melty Blood: Type Lumina has characters called Hisui, Kohaku, and Hisui & Kohaku on its roster, with the latter being a fusion of the former two. This got me thinking: What interesting ideas could we get by mixing existing characters on Super Smash Bros.'s roster? Functionally, this could be done any number of ways from fairly normal characters like Duck Hunt to very strange characters like the Ice Climbers, to swappable characters like Pyra/Mythra.

Some example fusions:

• Mario & Luigi
• Donkey Kong & Diddy Kong
• Zelda/Sheik (kind of cheating but you get the idea)

Oh, and because I know that these types of characters wouldn't be preferred over characters that are actually new entities by you guys, let's assume that these hypothetical characters appear out of the ether and onto the roster without any development time or resources spent on them; I think the conversation would be best if it were about the mechanical ideas/theory crafting rather than "would it be a good/favorable idea?" since the majority opinion is highly likely to just be "no" in most cases. In other words, it's a dumb idea but let's see how far we can take it anyway.

Also, completely bonkers combinations like Sephiroth & Pichu get bonus points from me. Go ham.

I'd love to see a fusion between Pit and Palutena. In this case, Pit would probably be the generally more "close up" fighter with various attacks as well as, of course, his bow as a basic and quick projectile - whilst Palutena would sort of work as a "mage" archetype, following Pit and being able to provide magical attacks, buffs and other such things, but lacking in outright attack power compared to him.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Another thing to note is that Melee clones were never originally planned to be in and were only included because there were extra time. So going by that, should be listed in their own category similar to the Echo Fighter since the decision process for them was to serve primarily as bonus content.

On a slightly different topic, imagine if anew Star Fox was to be shown at the next Direct with Krystal being confirmed to return.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

They release a new F-Zero game that is only on sale for 7 minutes (because funny f-zero fast joke) and the last DLC character is, like, Deathborn, but he's only playable as long as the new F-Zero is on sale

 

[GilTheGreat19]

October is spooky month
RE is spooky
It all makes sense, folks

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Don't see how the sales of different series is relevant.

(cough cough) Capcom killed Darkstalkers due to sales in Japan. (cough cough)

 

[SNEKeater]

(cough cough) Capcom killed Darkstalkers due to sales in Japan. (cough cough)

I don't think that has nothing to do with what Idon was saying.

 

[Theguy123]

Fp11 most likely will release in October. You know what else released in October…………….. club penguin.

Ohh yeah, it’s all coming together now

 

[Sigran101]

I think this DLC cycle has been incredibly balanced compared to 4s, really. People say that every new character is broken, but the fact that almost none of the DLC picks are top or even high tier in competitive kinda shows that's not true.

"Joker is the new Bayo" - his skill floor at top level is incredibly high, though, unlike Sm4sh Bayo.

"Hero's RNG is broken" - but it's inconsistent, and his normals aren's anything to write home about.

"Wonderwing is too good" - but it has very clear weaknesses and counterplay.

I could go on, but I think others have made the point by now. I don't feel like anyone is overtuned at all. They have a lot of new mechanics, sure, but these new mechanics come with clear limitations and can't just be spammed or KO easily.

Unless you'retalking about casual play, because no amount of balancing can help you there, really.

I would add that comparing Joker to Bayo is seriously dumb when he's not even the best character in the game. That's Pikachu. And the other consistent top tiers are Palutena, Zero Suit, and Peach. All base game characters. People assume all new characters are broken, but in reality they are well balanced and not even top tier.

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

Bruh imagine if Jonesy was fighter 11 and ended up being Bayo 2.0. Every Smash tourney would have the commentators discussing the riveting gameplan of Riddles cranking 90s and unloading the chug jug cancel tech to perform a 0tD against MKLeo's Byleth.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Bruh imagine if Jonesy was fighter 11 and ended up being Bayo 2.0. Every Smash tourney would have the commentators discussing the riveting gameplan of Riddles cranking 90s and unloading the chug jug cancel tech to perform a 0tD against MKLeo's Byleth.

Was this ****ing english?

 

[CannonStreak]

Fp11 most likely will release in October. You know what else released in October…………….. club penguin.

View attachment 330699Ohh yeah, it’s all coming together now

You're supposed to give him an actual club as a weapon for him to be named Club Penguin.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Fp11 most likely will release in October. You know what else released in October…………….. club penguin.

View attachment 330699
Ohh yeah, it’s all coming together now

Oh... Oh no...

 

[Sucumbio]

Here's a topic for you guys to chew on in the morning:

So Melty Blood: Type Lumina has characters called Hisui, Kohaku, and Hisui & Kohaku on its roster, with the latter being a fusion of the former two. This got me thinking: What interesting ideas could we get by mixing existing characters on Super Smash Bros.'s roster? Functionally, this could be done any number of ways from fairly normal characters like Duck Hunt to very strange characters like the Ice Climbers, to swappable characters like Pyra/Mythra.

Some example fusions:

• Mario & Luigi
• Donkey Kong & Diddy Kong
• Zelda/Sheik (kind of cheating but you get the idea)

Oh, and because I know that these types of characters wouldn't be preferred over characters that are actually new entities by you guys, let's assume that these hypothetical characters appear out of the ether and onto the roster without any development time or resources spent on them; I think the conversation would be best if it were about the mechanical ideas/theory crafting rather than "would it be a good/favorable idea?" since the majority opinion is highly likely to just be "no" in most cases. In other words, it's a dumb idea but let's see how far we can take it anyway.

Also, completely bonkers combinations like Sephiroth & Pichu get bonus points from me. Go ham.

Woah.... That is so weird... Last night long before you posited this I was reading the thread out loud while my wife was driving us to Whataburger and she got snarky and said....

"So who is the last character going to be?" and I started to answer and before I could even get past the hmmmm well she blurts out

"It's gonna be a Pokemon AND a Fire Emblem character!"

You must be psychic

 

[CannonStreak]

Woah.... That is so weird... Last night long before you posited this I was reading the thread out loud while my wife was driving us to Whataburger and she got snarky and said....

"So who is the last character going to be?" and I started to answer and before I could even get past the hmmmm well she blurts out

"It's gonna be a Pokemon AND a Fire Emblem character!"

You must be psychic

Ah, Whataburger. I used to live near one of those restaurants, once upon a time.

I think your wife should open up a psychic fortune telling business.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Woah.... That is so weird... Last night long before you posited this I was reading the thread out loud while my wife was driving us to Whataburger and she got snarky and said....

"So who is the last character going to be?" and I started to answer and before I could even get past the hmmmm well she blurts out

"It's gonna be a Pokemon AND a Fire Emblem character!"

You must be psychic

We almost got one of those actually.

 

[Jondolio]

We almost got one of those actually.

Pokémon and FE are some of my favorite Nintendo series so that actually sounds dope. ****, I'm sad that this didn't happen now

 

[FreeFox]

We almost got one of those actually.

WE got something that is actually pretty close to that though:

 

[Mushroomguy12]

WE got something that is actually pretty close to that though:

Yes, it was mentioned in the article that Pokemon Conquest led them to be unable to follow through with the crossover, so they eventually decided to do a crossover with FE and SMT instead and Tokyo Mirage Session was made.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I would add that comparing Joker to Bayo is seriously dumb when he's not even the best character in the game. That's Pikachu. And the other consistent top tiers are Palutena, Zero Suit, and Peach. All base game characters. People assume all new characters are broken, but in reality they are well balanced and not even top tier.

Hell, the only thing you can say about "powercreep" in this DLC is that we've yet to get an outright bad character. Only one of the 11 characters so far is generally considered below mid tier () and even then they have their users in competitive.

Most of DLC has fluctuated between mid to high tier, depending on who you ask. The only ones who are undisputedly top tiers are and /, from all pro analysis I've personally seen.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Hell, the only thing you can say about "powercreep" in this DLC is that we've yet to get an outright bad character. Only one of the 11 characters so far is generally considered below mid tier () and even then they have their users in competitive.

Most of DLC has fluctuated between mid to high tier, depending on who you ask. The only one who is undisputedly a top tier is Joker, from all pro analysis I've personally seen.

Pyra/Mythra is considered an undisputed top tier now too.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Pyra/Mythra is considered an undisputed top tier now too.

Only reason I didn't put them there is because I'm still seeing the odd ranking with them at High, but not Top.

But eh, considering a lot of them put the Aegis in top, might as well. Fixed.

 

[WahHahaha]

Shilling I feel is a fairly negative term, especially given Smash is "Promotion: the Video Game."

No, it turned into promotion the video game ever since we've had DLC. It wasn't promotion: the video game when Sakurai decided to have Nintendo characters fight eachother back in melee and 64, or in Brawl when he did the same thing but added a few cool guests. It turned into promotion immediately when Nintendo and other companies started exploiting DLC for their own personal gain.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yes, it was mentioned in the article that Pokemon Conquest led them to be unable to follow through with the crossover, so they eventually decided to do a crossover with FE and SMT instead and Tokyo Mirage Session was made.

Wait wut? Did they have "Pokémon tactical RPGs must be under the Pokémon Conquest monicre and thus have to be Dynasty Warriors X Pokémon" or did they just go "you did that already. Do something else"?

 

[Trevenant]

I can see the reason why people have the fairly absurd kneejerk reactions as all the new characters are kind of breaking the mold of what makes a smash character, pass 2 especially more so than pass 1 but the thing to keep in mind is these gimmicks usually come into effect when the characters are at a disadvantage, and have other weaknesses to help circumvent the mechanic being a full on get out of jail free card. Joker has to take at least some damage before he uses Arsene even if you want to use Down B, Hero's mana is really only a detriment that puts a cap on how much he can use his spells, Terry needs to hit a pretty high percent before using his supers and even then they are really slow so they're pretty balanced, Steve literally needs to camp to be able to do anything otherwise he's weaker than even an aerial only Mac, Sephiroth has an absurdly light weight, large frame and poor frame data meaning even with the one wing boosts he still is just as prone to KOs as ever, and Kazuya has trouble approaching due to his sluggish speed and is forced to do so or else he loses rage.

It isn't straight up you press a button and get better like Zelda and Sheik with the only detriment being the occasional punish, they have legitimate drawbacks that prevent them from being broken despite making the characters better in pretty much every way when capitalized upon.

Ultimately, I think it just comes down to the fact that gimmicks as a whole were largely abstract from smash until 4 started to add them to most of the characters to make them more unique and how Ultimate DLC just ran with it and started adding a bunch of stuff we've flat out never really seen before in smash, and pass 2 went to ridiculous lengths. The most gimmicky character in pass 1 were Terry and Hero but fi we're discounting the latter as the largest mechanics there were reliant on RNG, the most Terry had was a back special and supers with normal cancelling, some command normals and the occasional tap/held special. Pass 2 however isn't settling on one mechanic for every character however and all the mechanics those characters are getting are really unique in and of themselves despite all being part of one character. Min Min's arms function like disjointed Megaman lemons, except she can throw only two out at a time but in return can throw them out out at the same time on different sides, can curve them, perform this even whilst crouching, and even use them as a smash input, grounded or airborne. She's even able to switch the currently equipped special arm which all have completely functions themselves and she's able to power up her dragon when using a throw, all whilst still maintaining her normal kick moves. Steve can place blocks, mine from the stage itself, boost his weapons power and durability in order to make sure they don't break with a background element etc, Sephiroth has a form which factors in earlier at different specials and a bunch of specialized interactions with his sword normals, a bunch of sweetspots and a bunch of specials which are really unique themselves, Pyra and Mythra are two in one with mechanics of their own and Kazuya has completely unique attacks and properties only he can really call his own, even more so than Terry and the SF guys and Rage on top of all that. They seem to be deliberately putting emphasis on uniqueness in this pass especially, and approaching really abstract concepts which aren't present in Ultimate and since they are so detached from even the likes of Bayonetta and Ryu, who were the gimmickiest of smash 4 dlc, they completely break the mold even they set so it's understandable why people will yell busted even when they are surprisingly balanced for characters of their kind.

 

[Perkilator]

Wait wut? Did they have "Pokémon tactical RPGs must be under the Pokémon Conquest monicre and thus have to be Dynasty Warriors X Pokémon" or did they just go "you did that already. Do something else"?

I guess they (TPC) were hesitant to cross Pokémon over with a series where people due for real, so they made Conquest instead.

 

[osby]

No, it turned into promotion the video game ever since we've had DLC. It wasn't promotion: the video game when Sakurai decided to have Nintendo characters fight eachother back in melee and 64, or in Brawl when he did the same thing but added a few cool guests. It turned into promotion immediately when Nintendo and other companies started exploiting DLC for their own personal gain.

A real question: Why do you think companies produce/commission and sell consumer goods? Because I can assure you that the correct answer isn't "for the goodness of their hearts".

 

[FreeFox]

Wait wut? Did they have "Pokémon tactical RPGs must be under the Pokémon Conquest monicre and thus have to be Dynasty Warriors X Pokémon" or did they just go "you did that already. Do something else"?

While I cant say for certain, it wouldnt be the first time Nintendo goes for the second option of doing something else. They have done so many times in the past like when Bowser joined the Skylanders. Bowser in that game originally was going to transform into Giga Bowser but Ninetndo encouraged them to try their own transformation instead.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I guess they (TPC) were hesitant to cross Pokémon over with a series where people due for real, so they made Conquest instead.

Pokémon Conquest I know came into existence because they wanted to make a Pokémon Warriors, but had no idea how that would work (I think it had something to do with handling the type matchups), so they made a tactical RPG instead.

 

[Momotsuki]

I think Piranha Plant is mad slept on competitively. The amount of control they're able to exert without moving an inch is crazy. They've got one of the best ledge-trapping games in the roster. They're definitely not a high-tier but they're absolutely not a bottom tier.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I do find it ironic that Ridley got rejected as a potential Smash 4 newcomer due to the belief that making him playable would mean making him inaccurate to his canon portrayal within the context of Little Mac as a newcomer, whose Smash portrayal fundamentally goes against his core characteristics in his home series… and then Ridley got added to the next game solely due to fan demands, was shrunken down, couldn’t fly around freely, etc. and nevertheless ended up capturing his most important canon characteristics in Smash in a way Little Mac never did. It does come across as pretty amusing when you think about it.

 

[Jondolio]

The idea that Smash didn't become advertisement: the video game until DLC became a thing when Roy was literally added before his game came out is laughable to me.