Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Michael the Spikester]

If y'all want Spongebob in Smash.

How about just making a petition to Nick to create a Nicktoons Smash-style game. Nick has plenty of characters to have such a large roster from all their IPs.

Closest you'll get to Spongebob in Smash and also a win for me if Daggett is among the characters.

 

[CannonStreak]

I hope I didn't come across as harsh or condescending in my reply. I just think that a particular news/reveal cycle by Nintendo has emerged and it would take some significant deviation from that for me to believe we're back in the old seasonal Direct model.

I didn't think you were harsh, at all. I just wanted to make it clear on what I was thinking.

That said, now that you mention it, based on what you said, I would say a Direct this week, even though I thought it was unlikely, is now even less likely.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Papagenos latest video also had him talking about Lloyd and Yuri being the same as costumes.

How does that work? Lloyd wields dual katanas, Yuri only has one.

Because PapaGenos doesn't know what he's talking about half the time. That's how that works.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

A character with a lot of moves in their source material will be easier for the designers to imagine in Smash. Plant proves those aren't the only characters that can be added, but it stands to reason that it's an advantage in regards to their chances.

But it's still silly to say a character can't happen because there's less stuff to draw from when it's been proven time and time again that Sakurai can pull it off.

People use the "moveset potential" excuse not to boost the chances of characters, but to shut down anyone they can't think of a moveset for.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

But it's still silly to say a character can't happen because there's less stuff to draw from when it's been proven time and time again that Sakurai can pull it off.

People use the "moveset potential" excuse not to boost the chances of characters, but to shut down anyone they can't think of a moveset for.

Who's saying a character can't happen?

 

[SharkLord]

Who's saying a character can't happen?

I think your point kinda got caught up in the Euden argument from the other day, where some people put him down on the basis that he wouldn't be doing anything new since we've already got fire-based swordfighters and dragons (Though personally I think the fiery effect of his strikes look pretty cool).

EDIT: Anyways here's the PotD

pic.twitter.com/4JXHPdaNer

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) January 12, 2021

 

[SirBillyBob]

This just adds fuel to the fire that villager is a deranged maniac:

pic.twitter.com/4JXHPdaNer

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) January 12, 2021

Edit:?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Who's saying a character can't happen?

What SharkLord said.

Someone went ahead and said that Euden can't happen because his attacks in Dragalia Lost are generic-looking and not very plentiful at that.

While that subject is brought up, I should mention Joker only has one attack animation in Persona 5, so wouldn't that mean he had less potential than Euden, yet had a whole moveset anyway? One that didn't even HAVE that one attack animation either, meaning all of his non-special moves are actually 100% made up.

Just further proof that shutting down characters because "lacking moveset potential" is downright asinine.

 

[chocolatejr9]

What SharkLord said.

Someone went ahead and said that Euden can't happen because his attacks in Dragalia Lost are generic-looking and not very plentiful at that.

While that subject is brought up, I should mention Joker only has one attack animation in Persona 5, so wouldn't that mean he had less potential than Euden, yet had a whole moveset anyway? One that didn't even HAVE that one attack animation either, meaning all of his non-Persona moves are actually 100% original.

And people say I'm crazy about wanting Euden...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

And people say I'm crazy about wanting Euden...

People in this thread are really dedicated when it comes to crushing dreams, it seems.

A sad, unfortunate truth of the farce we call "speculation" around here.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I think your point kinda got caught up in the Euden argument from the other day, where some people put him down on the basis that he wouldn't be doing anything new since we've already got fire-based swordfighters and dragons (Though personally I think the fiery effect of his strikes look pretty cool).

EDIT: Anyways here's the PotD

pic.twitter.com/4JXHPdaNer

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) January 12, 2021

“Long Live The King”

 

[SharkLord]

I kinda wanna put an Euden moveset together now because from what I've heard he could actually turn out pretty cool.

On the other hand, I still have to make three Final Fantasy movesets after a bet regarding TGA.

I cannot remain focused

 

[chocolatejr9]

I kinda wanna put an Euden moveset together now because from what I've heard he could actually turn out pretty cool.

On the other hand, I still have to make three Final Fantasy movesets after a bet regarding TGA.

I cannot remain focused

What kind of bet did you make? I hope it didn't involve your soul: those bets never end well...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I kinda wanna put an Euden moveset together now because from what I've heard he could actually turn out pretty cool.

On the other hand, I still have to make three Final Fantasy movesets after a bet regarding TGA.

I cannot remain focused

Wanna save on time? Make a Zack Fair moveset

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

What SharkLord said.

Someone went ahead and said that Euden can't happen because his attacks in Dragalia Lost are generic-looking and not very plentiful at that.

While that subject is brought up, I should mention Joker only has one attack animation in Persona 5, so wouldn't that mean he had less potential than Euden, yet had a whole moveset anyway? One that didn't even HAVE that one attack animation either, meaning all of his non-special moves are actually 100% made up.

Just further proof that shutting down characters because "lacking moveset potential" is downright asinine.

I didn't notice anyone say Euden can't happen.

 

[SharkLord]

What kind of bet did you make? I hope it didn't involve your soul: those bets never end well...

It was simple: If there was a character reveal at the Game Awards, I would have people pick out three movesets from their home series. We got Sephiroth, so they picked out Kefka, Bartz, and some dude with horrendous fashion sense named Luca. So now I gotta do my homework and make movesets for these guys.

 

[chocolatejr9]

It was simple: If there was a character reveal at the Game Awards, I would have people pick out three movesets from their home series. We got Sephiroth, so they picked out Kefka, Bartz, and some dude with horrendous fashion sense named Luca. So now I gotta do my homework and make movesets for these guys.

For Kefka and Bartz, you can probably use Dissidia as a reference. Don't know about Luca, though.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

It was simple: If there was a character reveal at the Game Awards, I would have people pick out three movesets from their home series. We got Sephiroth, so they picked out Kefka, Bartz, and some dude with horrendous fashion sense named Luca. So now I gotta do my homework and make movesets for these guys.

The lack of Gilgamesh makes this a fool's errand, though Bartz at least is a decent backup if Sakurai wanted to represent all of Final Fantasy and not just VII.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I didn't notice anyone say Euden can't happen.

Alright, it was me replying to a "Euden can't be interesting because no standout moves" kinda thing.

But it's still the same kind of thing; making a charatcer seem boring and uninteresting so it won't be talked about.

 

[Faso115]

They are totally saving Lloyd and Monster Hunter for the absolute last reveals.

Just like Shadow....and Isaac....and Skull Kid....and Chorus Kids

See what i mean? We've been over this before. Hell, Geno should have been obvious enough that holding back a costume doesn't mean that character is showing up

 

[Golden Icarus]

Papagenos latest video also had him talking about Lloyd and Yuri being the same as costumes.

How does that work? Lloyd wields dual katanas, Yuri only has one.

That definitely wouldn't do either character justice. It reminds of people suggesting that Scorpion and Sub-Zero could be echoes/costumes. You can't have Sub-Zero without the ice ball, and you can't have Scorpion without the spear. You would have to make a weird, clunky amalgamation to make that work. Even as someone who definitely prefers Lloyd, I would rather they just make a faithful Yuri instead of a weird hybrid.

 

[7NATOR]

I'm really not interested in Euden as a Character at all

What I am interested in however is New Transformation gimmicks, since Powering yourself up feels really good and powerful, and Euden could bring some new Elements to the "Power up Gimmick" that characters

From what I hear, Euden's Dragon Transformation isn't a Permenant Transformation, but it is a Transformation you can Transform into without having to fill the meter all the way up. It works like how Super Saiyan did in Budokai 1 and Xenoverse 1, where the Ki goes down when you Transform, and you stay in the Transformation longer the more Ki you had when you transformed

So Euden could have a Cool Moveset managing between his Regular Human form, and his More Powerful Dragon form, and you cn Transform at will as long as you have enough Dragon Meter. So It's not a Comeback Mechanic like Arsene or One Winged Form, which I think is Interesting (though I think One Winged Form was a really interesting way to implement a Comeback mechanic)

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

This might sound silly but a potential hurdle against a Dark Souls character might be their general slowness. If the Smash team wanted to create a character to accurately represent the Dark Souls series, most of their attacks would probably be pretty slow and likely have a huge amount of end lag. Since this type of character might not be very fun to play as I`m wondering if the idea would be rejected for this reason, or if there was something that could be done so a potential DS rep would play like the rest of the smash roster while still representing their series.

Ganondorf and Sephiroth have awful frame data too so I don't see why that stops Chosen Undead. This isn't getting into other characters such as Byleth whose frame data is also pretty bad.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

That definitely wouldn't do either character justice. It reminds of people suggesting that Scorpion and Sub-Zero could be echoes/costumes. You can't have Sub-Zero without the ice ball, and you can't have Scorpion without the spear. You would have to make a weird, clunky amalgamation to make that work. Even as someone who definitely prefers Lloyd, I would rather they just make a faithful Yuri instead of a weird hybrid.

That didn't stop some people to think we'd get a Frankenstein when the ARMS character was speculated about.

Those were a very painful three months for me, someone who played ARMS, to see people not care about the characters' individuality as if it was okay.

 

[cothero]

What SharkLord said.

Someone went ahead and said that Euden can't happen because his attacks in Dragalia Lost are generic-looking and not very plentiful at that.

While that subject is brought up, I should mention Joker only has one attack animation in Persona 5, so wouldn't that mean he had less potential than Euden, yet had a whole moveset anyway? One that didn't even HAVE that one attack animation either, meaning all of his non-special moves are actually 100% made up.

Just further proof that shutting down characters because "lacking moveset potential" is downright asinine.

Yup. If Pac-Man could happen to be playable with a full moveset, ANYONE else can be.

 

[Faso115]

Often people think Nintendo will pull another Roy and that's only ever happened with just Roy, no other character has actually debuted in smash before their game.

And before you say Corrin, that's just coming it out in smash before their game reaches the west. That has happened several times, we call them Marth and Lucas.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Often people think Nintendo will pull another Roy and that's only ever happened with just Roy, no other character has actually debuted in smash before their game.

And before you say Corrin, that's just coming it out in smash before their game reaches the west. That has happened several times, we call them Marth and Lucas.

And even then, Roy wasn't even intentional; his game got delayed to the point that Melee released before it when it was supposed to be the other way around.

 

[Golden Icarus]

That didn't stop some people to think we'd get a Frankenstein when the ARMS character was speculated about.

Those were a very painful three months for me, someone who played AMRS, to see people not care about the characters' individuality as if it was okay.

I wasn't active on the boards during the ARMS character speculation, so I luckily didn't witness that. As a big fan of ARMS, that's cringe.

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

That didn't stop some people to think we'd get a Frankenstein when the ARMS character was speculated about.

Those were a very painful three months for me, someone who played AMRS, to see people not care about the characters' individuality as if it was okay.

I'm going to partially blame Hero lol. If Joker brought the expectations of third-parties to an all-time high, Hero probably made people think a lot of characters needed alts to make them more interesting. Other than the ARMS fighter being a bunch of Springman alt characters, Terry was also speculated to have a fem-Terry alt... which is just... even worse.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

That definitely wouldn't do either character justice. It reminds of people suggesting that Scorpion and Sub-Zero could be echoes/costumes. You can't have Sub-Zero without the ice ball, and you can't have Scorpion without the spear. You would have to make a weird, clunky amalgamation to make that work. Even as someone who definitely prefers Lloyd, I would rather they just make a faithful Yuri instead of a weird hybrid.

I always imagined a Scorpion and Sub Zero echo was possible, albeit with a few special changes. They have all the same normals and entirely different Special Moves. Thats it.
Sakurais definition of an echo fighter is just a fighter that fits over an existing model. Its why Ken is an echo but Pichu isn’t. The logic ain’t flawless (Looking at Dr Mario) but it would fit this kind of concept.

 

[smashkirby]

Nester from Nester's Funky Bowling?

Technically, you're not wrong! Still though, if Lark ever returned for a new PW game, I wonder if Nintendo would acknowledge him also being Nester...

 

[Golden Icarus]

I always imagined a Scorpion and Sub Zero echo was possible, albeit with a few special changes. They have all the same normals and entirely different Special Moves. Thats it.
Sakurais definition of an echo fighter is just a fighter that fits over an existing model. Its why Ken is an echo but Pichu isn’t. The logic ain’t flawless (Looking at Dr Mario) but it would fit this kind of concept.

That's fair. I never really liked the echo label for that reason. The fact that Ken is considered an echo, while Dr. Mario is considered unique is beyond me.

It's still hard for me to picture an ice based fighter echoing a fire based fighter. Like you said, they could get away with having similar normals, but their specials are entirely different from each other in every MK game. The amount of differences they would need to have leads me to think that they wouldn't be echo fighters. But the definition of echo is so strange that it actually might not matter.

 

[cothero]

I always imagined a Scorpion and Sub Zero echo was possible, albeit with a few special changes. They have all the same normals and entirely different Special Moves. Thats it.
Sakurais definition of an echo fighter is just a fighter that fits over an existing model. Its why Ken is an echo but Pichu isn’t. The logic ain’t flawless (Looking at Dr Mario) but it would fit this kind of concept.

Nah, they're very different characters, man. Scorpion can teleport, Sub-Zero can't. Sub-Zero can slide, Scorpion can't. Echos can do the exact same thing as his original counterpart, so if one guy shoots ice balls and the other throws a spear, you could obviously expect different outcomes. One freezes the opponent and the other brings it near him. The best i could see is a semi-clone treatment like Villager and Isabelle, and that still wouldn't do justice to them.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Nah, they're very different characters, man. Scorpion can teleport, Sub-Zero can't. Sub-Zero can slide, Scorpion can't. Echos can do the exact same thing as his original counterpart, so if one guy shoots ice balls and the other throws a spear, you could obviously expect different outcomes. One freezes the opponent and the other brings it near him. The best i could see is a semi-clone treatment like Villager and Isabelle, and that still wouldn't do justice to them.

Echo doesn't mean same moves. It means same bodyshape first and foremost. They can have different moves. Though I do think they've got way too many differences and I feel regular clones would be better. They don't share much more than a few animations, and them being the same bodyshape might not be the case anymore. That was back during the sprite days(as it was pretty much reused assets. I think it was even the same actor wearing different outfits, but I could be wrong).

 

[Greyfox22]

Ganondorf and Sephiroth have awful frame data too so I don't see why that stops Chosen Undead. This isn't getting into other characters such as Byleth whose frame data is also pretty bad.

I guess that's true. That being said, I think those problems would still be greater for Chosen Undead or whoever potentially gets in.

-Ganondorf was designed as a slower more damage-heavy Captain Falcon and people who didn`t/don't like Ganon play as Captain Falcon instead.

-Sephiroth has some end lag but none of his regular moves come close to being as slow as those in Dark Souls. He also has a variety of faster attacks and somewhat quick movement speed.

-Byleth is kinda the same situation as Sephiroth. Can be slow but not nearly as much as I'd imagine a Dark Souls rep would be. Byleth also has some attacks with a decent(ish) amount of speed, but movement wise I think Byleth would probably be the most similar to Chosen Undead.


That being said I still think Chosen Undead would be a cool addition so I'd be happy if they actually made it in.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Hmmm has anyone thought that Chun-Li would be E3-worthy reveal?

Think about it. The first female fighting game character in gaming alone I think warrants her such a reveal there. Because otherwise in March given that Tales Livestream we could potentially see Yuri and then her in June.

 

[Icedragonadam]

Hmmm has anyone thought that Chun-Li would be E3-worthy reveal?

Think about it. The first female fighting game character in gaming alone I think warrants her such a reveal there. Because otherwise in March given that Tales Livestream we could potentially see Yuri and then her in June.

And Ryu was revealed in 4 in June near E3, would be a nice callback to that.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Nah, they're very different characters, man. Scorpion can teleport, Sub-Zero can't. Sub-Zero can slide, Scorpion can't. Echos can do the exact same thing as his original counterpart, so if one guy shoots ice balls and the other throws a spear, you could obviously expect different outcomes. One freezes the opponent and the other brings it near him. The best i could see is a semi-clone treatment like Villager and Isabelle, and that still wouldn't do justice to them.

Nah, I mentioned Ryu and Ken for a reason. They have incredibly different movesets despite being echos. Give Scorpion and Sub Zero the same normals but entirely different specials. That was how it was in MK 1-3.
All that matters fir them to be echos is a shared skeleton and model.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm going to partially blame Hero lol. If Joker brought the expectations of third-parties to an all-time high, Hero probably made people think a lot of characters needed alts to make them more interesting. Other than the ARMS fighter being a bunch of Springman alt characters, Terry was also speculated to have a fem-Terry alt... which is just... even worse.

I wouldn't go that far. I think the general assumption is that female Terry is a joke character for the all girls mascot fighter. It's not until you find out that SNK Heroines is literally just there for you to ogle everyone, and the plot is that they're all being held against their will in a dream realm so the main villain can ogle them where it becomes highly objectionable. Game's creepy. Doesn't help that the only other instance of the character is for Midnight Bliss.

But at face value, the concept of a female version of Terry is no worse than the gender swapped avatars, and I'd imagine that's the assumption that anyone who would make the suggestion is working with.

 

[cothero]

Echo doesn't mean same moves. It means same bodyshape first and foremost. They can have different moves. Though I do think they've got way too many differences and I feel regular clones would be better. They don't share much more than a few animations, and them being the same bodyshape might not be the case anymore. That was back during the sprite days(as it was pretty much reused assets. I think it was even the same actor wearing different outfits, but I could be wrong).

Same bodyshape = Ok, can be an echo
Different moves = it's not an echo

Unless Sakurai changes his rules about what echoes are, they're still the same thing as the original character they're based on, but they can have different speed and framedata (such as Lucina/Marth and Ken/Ryu).

Doctor Mario and Dark Pit are the most different in comparision to their counterparts, but the effects aren't drastically different. Of course, Dr. Mario Pills doesn't burn the opponent like Mario's fireballs does (neither Ryu shoryuken compared to Ken's), but the overall gameplay and framedata aren't significatively changed. The same goes to Pit/Dark Pit side smash.