Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Koopaul]

I mean we have Creeper and Pig Miis (Who can also be turned into Sans Undertale, that is very important). They don't have knees either.

From what I've seen they have a full lower leg. The top of which is treated like a knee.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Reminder that Chris is likely because we currently don't have anyone with Rock Smash on the roster.

You joke but if Chris gets in, you KNOW he'd have a punch as his jab and that he'd punch Stone Kirby in his trailer

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I had some time to kill and decided to cropped out some Team Destination renders without the background (those guys rocks). Enjoy:

These are pretty good, but they all have some wonky proportions (why Dante's head so big?). This really only helps Cinderace though since it's head isn't gargantuan in this depiction. I would be fine if it looked like this in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.

I mean we have Creeper and Pig Miis (Who can also be turned into Sans Undertale, that is very important). They don't have knees either.

Yeah but their little block legs do have more of a knee than Rayman's shoe. You can still tell what's going on there, and I'm not sure that would be the case with a Rayman costume.

 

[RoboFist]

Spoiler: Tall image

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Let us have a bit of fun. Make a tier list representing your favorite DLC fighters thus far! Not in terms of competitive viability, simply how much you like the fighters and their inclusions. Mine is seen in the spoiler above.

S TIER -

While I think BK's overall package left a bit to be desired (could've used more music from Tooie, and the lack of any Rare Mii costumes was a travesty), their inclusion meant everything to me. My brother and I cleared Smash 64 when I was nine, sat back, and asked "Wait, where's Banjo and Kazooie?" So seeing an updated model finally make it was honestly the last possible thing I absolutely needed to see in Ultimate. And the fact that their moveset is so accurate to the moves in their games is nothing short of awesome for me to experience even now, over a year after their announcement.

I only ever played maybe two hours of Minecraft (I fortunately never fell down the YouTube let's play/meme rabbit hole, so I didn't find him as annoying a pick as a lot of others), but that was more than enough for me to get it. The game was and still is an enormous milestone for modern gaming and it more than earned a spot in Smash, I believe. While I wished they had done literally anything to his character model, I think his moveset and stage are absolutely remarkable efforts. (Plus I'm glad the BK/Steve feud is finally over.)

I had a lot of mixed feelings when Sephiroth was first announced. I didn't love how the Pass was double-dipping into a game that was already represented. But once I saw Sakurai's presentation and how much access he/Sora Lt. finally had to Final Fantasy VII, the negative feelings straight up evaporated. The music, stage, spirits, victory screens, Mii costumes...just.. yes. It helps that his design is so killer and I love how his playstyle gave us another glass cannon.

A TIER -

Okay, I'm man enough to admit it: I initially believed in The Grinch Leak. So that last Smash Direct before the game's launch didn't really scratch me where I itched. Seeing Piranha Plant get announced was exactly the type of Wii Fit Trainer-level of bizarre that my brain needed. Lo and behold, it's actually stupidly fun to play and it's one of my mains to this day. I'm all about the left-field additions that most fans rage over, so this troll pick was a breath of fresh air.

Speaking of rage, I love Min-Min for all the reasons everyone else hates her. I love how she doesn't play like any other character. I love how she's not the box mascot of her game. I love how she's a promoted Spirit. I love how ARMS was given a proper spot on the roster despite the game not being a runaway success. I love how angry people get when they can't adapt to her playstyle. I love her chaotic stage. I love the music. I'm genuinely happy she's in.

I have zero connection to Terry. The only SNK games I ever even touched were the Metal Slugs (which didn't even get a Mii Gunner costume?? Come on, SNK...), so Terry's leak/reveal was very "meh".

But then he was released and hot damn, he's pretty fun to play. Obviously the music we got with him was bonkers. And the absolute best part of his Pass was the stage. That stage, guys...it's one of my most used stages in the entire game. I really hope we get more like it.

B TIER -

I was way too out of the loop to appreciate Joker's surprise reveal at TGA, and I just don't know if Persona 5 is my type of game because trying to get past the first few hours feels like such a chore to me. His playstyle in Smash doesn't really jive with me either, so there's not much I have to say about him. I do really love his stage and music, though.

It's funny, I remember before Joker was announced how many people wanted a Three Houses rep as DLC. She (I never acknowledge male Byleth) was just the victim of absolutely terrible timing. Frankly, I think she's pretty fun to play. Her stage and music left a lot to be desired though. I can see Nintendo keeping her around as a FE rep in the next game, along with Robin and Marth/Lucina. They're from the most popular games and feel unique enough that they could get rid of the remaining series reps and maybe erase the FE stigma.

Hero should've happened ages ago. Dragon Quest is so crucial to Nintendo and Japanese gaming in general. I unabashedly love all four designs, and I admire incorporating the RNG menu, but I'm not kidding when I say that their horrible music selections really dampened their entire package for me. I can barely appreciate their stage because it forces me to pick from some of the worst music in the game.

Honestly, call me simple, but there hasn't been a Super Low Tier DLC for me yet. Considering how many uninspired or cringey video game characters have a chance, I think we've gotten pretty damn lucky so far.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Costumes aren't generally made to be perfect.

The most awkward thing with Rayman is having partial limbs, which would likely be invisible or his costume would be closer to like Isabelle is, if he's going to get MIi'd. He could be a hat, but he could work fine as a regular costume too. Like more body armor instead, that doesn't cover every part of the body. So Gloves, Breastplate, Boots, and a Hat.

 

[Koopaul]

I've been thinking about Sephiroth. And now I'm convinced that, when it comes to 3rd parties, they will always pick their biggest names. I think Banjo got lucky. I think the only reason he got in was due to difficulties with Minecraft. It's clear Nintendo wanted Minecraft in Smash for years, but we only got it recently. There were probably some issues we are unaware of. As a result, Nintendo chose Banjo as their backup Microsoft pick.

This is just my theory. But yeah, Banjo is an outlier among 3rd parties. All the other 3rd parties are some of the biggest characters that company has to offer.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I've been thinking about Sephiroth. And now I'm convinced that, when it comes to 3rd parties, they will always pick their biggest names. I think Banjo got lucky. I think the only reason he got in was due to difficulties with Minecraft. It's clear Nintendo wanted Minecraft in Smash for years, but we only got it recently. There were probably some issues we are unaware of. As a result, Nintendo chose Banjo as their backup Microsoft pick.

This is just my theory. But yeah, Banjo is an outlier among 3rd parties. All the other 3rd parties are some of the biggest characters that company has to offer.

And the high demand he has had since Melee. Prior to his inclusion Banjo was one of the most highly requested characters alongside K. Rool and Ridley. High demand also equals lot of money.

And Nintendo's and Microsoft's current relationship.

And Phil Spencer giving his blessing to Banjo.

Banjo was most definitely not an outlier. If not for that demand. He, K. Rool and Ridley never would have been in this game. Though with Banjo the relationship between Nintendo and Microsoft played a role too.

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

I had some time to kill and decided to cropped out some Team Destination renders without the background (those guys rocks). Enjoy:

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Something about that Dante render always looks off to me.
Might be his leg proportions or his early Dreamworks looking like face.
Not knocking the artist tho since I wouldn't be able to make something better looking having all the time in the world.

 

[DarthEnderX]

it still a bit of a bummer that we couldn't get a bit more FF music (Birth of a God, Gold Saucer, and Chocobo's Theme are still glaring omissions and of course some contents from the other FF games other than 7 would have been greatly appreciated).

The only reason I can think of for NOT having the Chocobo theme, when it was even in the hat trailer, is that, because that theme originates in a game other than FF7, based on what Sakurai said, it may have required them to license a completely different game(FF2) just to get that song.

 

[Koopaul]

And the high demand he has had since Melee. Prior to his inclusion Banjo was one of the most highly requested characters alongside K. Rool and Ridley. High demand also equals lot of money.

And Nintendo's and Microsoft's current relationship.

And Phil Spencer giving his blessing to Banjo.

I think fan demand will always be a second priority. The biggest characters will have a higher priority over fan requests. K. Rool and Ridley are Nintendo characters. Nintend already has their biggest names in Smash. So fan requests are more likely at this point.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The only reason I can think of for NOT having the Chocobo theme, when it was even in the hat trailer, is that, because that theme originates in a game other than FF7, based on what Sakurai said, it may have required them to license a completely different game(FF2) just to get that song.

Though worth noting that the Chocobo Hat is not from a FFVII-based model, but actually from a spin-off Chocobo game. But he was able to license it under FFVII in 4. So likely it's the only one he got that wasn't pure FFVII, other than the Ifrit model in-game. Ifrit's Spirti even uses the FFVII design, I think?

On another note, I'm disappointed it's FFVII-focused still, but I honestly did call that being the case. I really really wish I wasn't right. ._.

 

[Heoj]

Saw some dlc character ranking. This isn't really based on anything, its like my summarized opinion of everything.

S:

A:

B:

C:

D:

E:

F:

 

[cothero]

These are pretty good, but they all have some wonky proportions (why Dante's head so big?). This really only helps Cinderace though since it's head isn't gargantuan in this depiction. I would be fine if it looked like this in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.

I just realized that humanoid smash characters indeed have bigger heads. Compare Snake and Bayonetta original renders and the ones from smash. The difference is notorious:

original:

smash:

original:

smash:

 

[Wigglerman]

It makes sense for proportions to be a little wonky in fighting games. When hit boxes need to be clear, having tiny appendages/extremities makes for worse conveyance. It's one of the primary reasons (outside of 'style') that SF characters tend to have meaty hands and feet so hit boxes are more clear. In theory.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I just realized that humanoid smash characters indeed have bigger heads. Compare Snake and Bayonetta original renders and the ones from smash. The difference is notorious:

original:
View attachment 297351
smash:
View attachment 297352
original:
View attachment 297353
smash:
View attachment 297354

If you look at Smash 64, the heads were often a bit more exaggerated, and not just on Mario/Luigi either. Keep in mind when certain attacks hit, sometimes the limb grows a bit bigger to give emphasis. Kind of like WCW Nitro did. It's a cartoony fighting game, so that might be why.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I just realized that humanoid smash characters indeed have bigger heads. Compare Snake and Bayonetta original renders and the ones from smash. The difference is notorious:

original:
View attachment 297351
smash:
View attachment 297352
original:
View attachment 297353
smash:
View attachment 297354

I mean, with Bayo, it's because they also shrunk some of her assets.





Her legs, the **** did you think I meant?

 

[SKX31]

I've been thinking about Sephiroth. And now I'm convinced that, when it comes to 3rd parties, they will always pick their biggest names. I think Banjo got lucky. I think the only reason he got in was due to difficulties with Minecraft. It's clear Nintendo wanted Minecraft in Smash for years, but we only got it recently. There were probably some issues we are unaware of. As a result, Nintendo chose Banjo as their backup Microsoft pick.

This is just my theory. But yeah, Banjo is an outlier among 3rd parties. All the other 3rd parties are some of the biggest characters that company has to offer.

TBF, B-K were Rareware's biggest names, and it's not like Sea of Thieves was much of an option because they lack a definitive main character (AFAIK, could be wrong here). They're certainly not huge by conventional industry metrics - but they're certainly well-known within the Nintendo hardcore.

Though worth noting that the Chocobo Hat is not from a FFVII-based model, but actually from a spin-off Chocobo game. But he was able to license it under FFVII in 4. So likely it's the only one he got that wasn't pure FFVII, other than the Ifrit model in-game. Ifrit's Spirti even uses the FFVII design, I think?

On another note, I'm disappointed it's FFVII-focused still, but I honestly did call that being the case. I really really wish I wasn't right. ._.

It's actually Ifrit's Remake artwork. Shiva as well as Chocobo & Moogle (I believe) also use their respective Remake artworks for their respective Spirit. Bahamut doesn't, its artwork might be a Smash original. The other character artworks are from original FF VII (I do believe it's due to Ifrit, Shiva and Bahamut likely not having artworks in the original, so they used Remake artworks instead. Chocobo and Moogle were probably merged into one Spirit because they had a Remake artwork with the two together. I'm spitballing and could be wrong though.).

 

[cothero]

If you look at Smash 64, the heads were often a bit more exaggerated, and not just on Mario/Luigi either. Keep in mind when certain attacks hit, sometimes the limb grows a bit bigger to give emphasis. Kind of like WCW Nitro did. It's a cartoony fighting game, so that might be why.

Yeah, they might did it on purpose to balance things on realistic vs. cartoony characters, to made it on a way they can coexist in the same game. Also, the hitbox theory from Wigglerman makes sense as well.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I just realized that humanoid smash characters indeed have bigger heads. Compare Snake and Bayonetta original renders and the ones from smash. The difference is notorious:

This is likely so you can see their face in normal gameplay. The Dante render seems to have done it a bit too much though. Or maybe its not as tall as it should be. One of the two. Big head aside, I do like the take on his Devil May Cry V design though.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

This is likely so you can see their face in normal gameplay. The Dante render seems to have done it a bit too much though. Or maybe its not as tall as it should be. One of the two. Big head aside, I do like the take on his Devil May Cry V design though.

If you ask me, the issue is Dante's face looking too young when it looks like that render's based on 5

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If you ask me, the issue is Dante's face looking too young when it looks like that render's based on 5

Actually, that could be why. It does kinda look uncanny. I originally assumed it was to try to fuse his DMC3 and DMCV designs but that doesn't seem to be the case on closer inspection.

 

[DarthEnderX]

What have you enjoyed more? The characters that we added in Ultimate's base game or the characters that have been added in Ultimate's DLC thus far?

Gameplaywise, or just characterwise?

Gameplaywise, I love Richter. But I also love Terry. And I might be learning to love Sephiroth. But conversely, I ****ing HATE Hero and Steve.

Characterwise, Simon was one of my most wanted. Hero was one of my most wanted. And Terry and Sephiroth were both characters I wanted. But conversely, I loathe Piranha Plant and Byleth.

So, honestly, it's a pretty even spread on both fronts.

On another note, I'm disappointed it's FFVII-focused still, but I honestly did call that being the case. I really really wish I wasn't right. ._.

Me too. But I at least UNDERSTAND why they did it.

I just wish we could have gotten, like, the FF7 versions of Prelude, FF Main Theme and Chocobo theme in there. Songs that could represent the whole series, while still coming from FF7.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I'm tempted to go on a rant about every character from Robin to Sephiroth and what I Liked and Disliked about the Reveals and Movesets, but I will save you guys that Mental Torture for another day.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Me too. But I at least UNDERSTAND why they did it.

I just wish we could have gotten, like, the FF7 versions of Prelude, FF Main Theme and Chocobo theme in there. Songs that could represent the whole series, while still coming from FF7.

It's probably part of the general agreements. Maybe the reason we only pretty much have FFVII is cause it's the latest remake coming out. Usually the IP holders choose the songs, so there might be more to it than that.

 

[Cosmic77]

I don't like how we went from "Final Fantasy universe" to Final Fantasy VII universe".

Even if all of the content is from one game, it feels bigger if you refer to the franchise as a whole instead of a single game.

 

[I.D.]

Even if all of the content is from one game, it feels bigger if you refer to the franchise as a whole instead of a single game.

But it's not content from the franchise as a whole, so

 

[DarthEnderX]

If you ask me, the issue is Dante's face looking too young when it looks like that render's based on 5

That would actually be in keeping with Snake, who is kind of an amalgamation of all his most popular appearances.

In Dante's case, I don't care for scruffy old face DMC5 Dante, but I also don't like shirtless DMC3 Dante.

Give me DMC4 Dante, wielding DMC5's Devil Sword Dante, and that's the ideal Dante to me.

 

[ZelDan]

But it's not content from the franchise as a whole, so

Technically, Chocobo, Moogle, Shiva, and Ifrit are from multiple FF games and not just FFVII.

Granted, I'm guessing the designs used for the spirits are from FFVII remake, still, doesn't stop them from being more general FF characters.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I decided to try and give each character a score based on who much I liked them, and how much I liked playing as them, and these are the results:
A Tier
I had grown to like Steve in the little time I had played Minecraft, and he plays so differently from everyone else that I find myself coming back to him when things get a bit stale.

B Tier
It's such a silly edition, and I am here fore it. It's moveset might be a bit unbalanced, but I think it's quite fun and inventive.

C Tier
Though they do land in the middle, I do like these characters in some form or another. While I'm kinda meh on Terry, Min Min, and Sephiroth as characters, I do like their movesets. Byleth is the opposite.

D Tier
This is the actual "meh" tier. They're alright, but they don't click with me as much as the others.

E Tier
Notice that this is E tier and not F tier because I don't hate them. They're just kinda wierd to play, and I don't really have any sort of attachment to them as characters.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I just realized that humanoid smash characters indeed have bigger heads. Compare Snake and Bayonetta original renders and the ones from smash. The difference is notorious:

I don't even notice it until it's side-by-side like that. I suppose that speaks to...something? I dunno what.

 

[cothero]

I mean, with Bayo, it's because they also shrunk some of her assets.





Her legs, the **** did you think I meant?

Oh, nothing... Nothing really.

 

[DarthEnderX]

It's actually Ifrit's Remake artwork. Shiva as well as Chocobo & Moogle (I believe) also use their respective Remake artworks for their respective Spirit. Bahamut doesn't, its artwork might be a Smash original.

Or it's also from FF7 Remake, but we haven't seen it before now since Bahamut ZERO doesn't appear in part 1.

 

[7NATOR]

Shroob when you come back, Hope you read this regarding your "Fire Theory"

I Know it is a Joke theory, but I guess to add more fuel to the Flames, there is also not an Online Tourney based around Fire, and with so many Characters that have Fire Moves, it would be a good online tourney idea

So perhaps we really are getting more characters that have Fire. Yes

 

[SharkLord]

Shroob when you come back, Hope you read this regarding your "Fire Theory"

I Know it is a Joke theory, but I guess to add more fuel to the Flames, there is also not an Online Tourney based around Fire, and with so many Characters that have Fire Moves, it would be a good online tourney idea

So perhaps we really are getting more characters that have Fire. Yes

The year is 2021. There is a Smash tournament for fire-based moves and everyone mains PK Fire.

Not Ness. Just PK Fire.

 

[Momotsuki]

A little late, but seeing some mention of the Creeper and Pig Mii outfits - I think there might be a little development gag going on there. They're identical in body type and shape, just textures and the pig's nose.

I think that might be a nod to the origin of the Creeper's shape in Minecraft, having emerged from a bugged Pig body.

 

[ZelDan]

The year is 2021. There is a Smash tournament for fire-based moves and everyone mains PK Fire.

Not Ness. Just PK Fire.

-PK Fire's moveset: just PK fire for all moves, including the shield buttons
-Taunts: All 3 of them are just Ness' "okay" taunt
-Stage: Giant PK Fire
-Music: Various songs in Smash remixed with Ness' "PK fire" and "okay" sounds.
-Items: none. All you need is PK Fire

Sakurai opted to make this over a FP3 BTW.

 

[ROBnWatch]

-PK Fire's moveset: just PK fire for all moves, including the shield buttons
-Taunts: All 3 of them are just Ness' "okay" taunt
-Stage: Giant PK Fire
-Music: Various songs in Smash remixed with Ness' "PK fire" and "okay" sounds.
-Items: none. All you need is PK Fire

Sakurai opted to make this over a FP3 BTW.

We get a new EarthBound character and still can’t get more (PK) fire EarthBound tracks in the game. Dang it.

 

[XorahnGaia]

I don't like how we went from "Final Fantasy universe" to Final Fantasy VII universe".

Even if all of the content is from one game, it feels bigger if you refer to the franchise as a whole instead of a single game.

For what it's worth, Cloud's spirits pre-Sephiroth were labeled as just "Final Fantasy VII" and are now labeled as "Final Fantasy series", likely because some of the summons are now spirits.
Also, the music selection's label was changed from Final Fantasy VII to Final Fantasy VII series though.

Honestly, I'm not sure what you're referencing here, but it's hard to deny that it's very unfortunate that FF's representation in Smash is limited to one game.

 

[kirbsmash]

Also, the music selection's label was changed from Final Fantasy VII to Final Fantasy VII series though.

Oh, because of AC,

 

[Rie Sonomura]

For what it's worth, Cloud's spirits pre-Sephiroth were labeled as just "Final Fantasy VII" and are now labeled as "Final Fantasy series", likely because some of the summons are now spirits.
Also, the music selection's label was changed from Final Fantasy VII to Final Fantasy VII series though.

Honestly, I'm not sure what you're referencing here, but it's hard to deny that it's very unfortunate that FF's representation in Smash is limited to one game.

you know i had a sudden thought

what if they also do a random spirit event for a non-VII FF game?