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Dk Mu Spread 3.6 Full

DiZZ

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Hey everyone its Noghrilla and from my time with dk I have a pretty good idea for his mu spread, with input from top players like Mojohnbo and Ripple I have created this list.
Dk Mus
:dk2:
Insanely difficult -3 :gw:

Brutal -2.5 :sonic:

Pretty Hard -2 :rob::zelda:
Disadvantage -1.5 :metaknight::falcon::diddy::ivysaur::fox::falco::link2:

Slight Disadvantage -1 :lucas::ganondorf::wolf::pikachu2::luigi2::kirby2::mewtwopm::ness2::mario2::squirtle::toonlink:

Even 0 :charizard::peach::sheik::samus2::snake::jigglypuff::popo::ike::pit::lucario::zerosuitsamus::dedede::dk2:

Slight advantage +1 :bowser2::olimar::wario::marth:

Favorable +1.5 :yoshi2::roypm:
 
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CELTiiC

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I don't agree that GnW is DK's worst matchup. I also think ROB, Wario and Ike should be at least a slight disadvantage, if not even. From playing JReed's & ORLY Wario, Ally's Ike and a couple local ROBs I don't find them to be all that tough match-ups for DK at all. Also D3 in this update is definitely more of an even matchup I feel. Also I would classify Zelda and Ivysaur in your "pretty hard" category. Ivysaur's b-air makes it almost impossible to recover back on stage and her floatiness makes it hard to get clean kills and combos off on her. Zelda is the same, as she is able to camp and combo DK much harder than he can do in return. These are just my opinions though.
 
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DiZZ

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You haven't played mrlz..., I can honestly tell you gnw at top level this update is beyond stressful, and with my experience with our local zelda player zero the theif I didn't really struggle to much with the mu at all. With ivy on the other hand I honestly have no clue.
 

DiZZ

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Oct 7, 2012
Messages
140
@ CELTiiC CELTiiC Just talked with ripple and he still thinks d3 wins the mu but not by a lot so I'm gonna have to agree, easy edge guards on our already free recovery and a grab range that makes us cry about our own. Walls us out with waddle dees easy regrabs with dthrow because we are super fat. It seems better then last update but not by a lot
 

CELTiiC

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You haven't played mrlz..., I can honestly tell you gnw at top level this update is beyond stressful, and with my experience with our local zelda player zero the theif I didn't really struggle to much with the mu at all. With ivy on the other hand I honestly have no clue.
Understandable. I haven't had too much trouble against GnW but then again I haven't played any national level threats. Zelda is difficult in my opinion, I've played Zhime and Face who are two good Zeldas and I've had trouble breaking through their walls. I also have gotten super frustrated playing that match up so it may be personal bias too. Also Ivysaur is just straight annoying. Her b-air is perfect for edge guarding DK's one dimensional recovery. Makes off stage impossible and her combos into Solarbeam and Vine Whip are obviously easier because of how heavy and massive we are. I have gotten pretty good at the match up since my training partner used to play Ivysaur, but I find it extremely annoying and difficult at times.

@ CELTiiC CELTiiC Just talked with ripple and he still thinks d3 wins the mu but not by a lot so I'm gonna have to agree, easy edge guards on our already free recovery and a grab range that makes us cry about our own. Walls us out with waddle dees easy regrabs with dthrow because we are super fat. It seems better then last update but not by a lot
That makes sense. I've played two or three Dedede's since the update and haven't had much trouble against any. I felt at least the match up got a little easier, but I could see how it could still be a little in favor of D3.

Could you guys give your opinion on Kirby, Sheik and ZSS?
@ AuraMaudeGone AuraMaudeGone these are three characters I have a good amount of experience with considering these are three characters that people in my smash group main.

Kirby isn't too difficult. Space with back air and be smart with your grabs. At low percents you can get cargo u-throw into u-air, but at later percents try to mix up their DI with cargo forward and back throw. Kirby gets more difficult if you start telegraphing your recovery because his d-air kills all momentum except downward momentum and sets up pseudo-spikes on DK since his vertical recovery is so poor. But all around off stage game versus Kirby is awful since he can just b-air camp you and can chase you into oblivion.

Sheik in PM is a lot better than it was in Melee. One grab on Sheik can net you around 70-80% if you eat her DJ and you have a punch. A good thing to keep in mind too is in tech chase situations if you hit Sheik with your down b you have enough time to run under her and up smash which can net a kill around 100-110% easily. Recovering is once again a pain, as Sheik has needles to eat your DJ and kill your up b and her b-air and n-air off the ledge keep her edge guard game insane. As long as you keep your punishes clean and maximize your opportunities Sheik can be bearable. Whenever you have her off stage just grab the ledge and force her to do an unsafe recovery either on stage or for the ledge off stage.

With ZSS, once you learn how to perfect/power shield this match up becomes 1000x easier. She can be punished easily out of cargo u-throw, f-throw and b-throw and her approaches are fairly telegraphed. Something to keep in mind though is her n-air changes allow her to chain n-air's together more easily which can be a problem. When she's off stage just grab the ledge and force her to attempt to grab ledge while you are holding it which will grab you a free n-air, u-air or giant punch.
 
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Sledj

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While ZSS isnt unwinnable its definitely not in our favor, She completely outclasses dk in the mobility department, she wins neutral and her punishes on big characters are insane. I'd say its at disadvantage or slight
 

DiZZ

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@ Sledj Sledj You might be right in that department its a mixed opinion for zss this update, I might just move her to even at this point.
 

Jacob29

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I don't believe you. Pretty sure DI away after like 20% will get away from side-b regrabs
 

DiZZ

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Yea that's def not a thing I played with zigludo a decent bit before 3.6 and bowser didn't have that, on top of the fact I talk to odds, bowser is a worse dk and that's pretty hard to do.
 

Brass Monkey

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Damn son, is OP just salty or something? Something tells me that he isn't abusing DK's superior speed and range over most of those "negative" matchups. You're telling me that we go even with spacing the character (Marth), but are somehow at a large disadvantage against metaknight whom we have a 0 to death on out of grab regardless of DI if the stage is large enough. I call shenanigans. If you're having trouble with Pikachu, Ganon, Wario, or Ice climbers something tells me that you're just sitting in shield to often and not utilizing our early punch kills often enough.
 

DiZZ

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I am the best dk atm..... , First of all the mk I play with is one of the top 3 being sartron's mk, has a vastly superior neutral to our own, he has a 0 to death tech chase and a poking tool which out ranges our own being his dtilt. One might say try to space with bair but due to mk high mobility he can sneak under us or get in the perfect range pick up with his dtilt or uair and juggle us for days. Its clear to me you think dk is some mid tier character in the current meta but let me just inform you he clearly isn't. Ive played most of the mus at top play except wario so you might be correct in that regard but the rest you have almost no idea what you are talking about.
 

Brass Monkey

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A lot of characters can 0 death on tech chase sitautions like Falcon, or Charizard. Should that ever happen? Not unless your being read like a children's book. Meta Knight's poking down-tilt in fact does not out range our own down tilt, both of which come out on frame 6 and would theoretically trade if both were input on the same frame. In fact DK will win a crouch cancel war against meta knight as his optimal down tilt hitbox for breaking crouch is the inside hitbox which is very limited in range. Looking up your most recent encounter with Sartron shows me why your being juggled for days, your only used options for coming down were to challenging him with fair/dair, two incredibly laggy moves that are easy to beat. It seems to me that you are the one who doesn't understand the neutral game when half of the time you went around slinging shffled fair only to get shield grabbed. You also might want try using that one move that links into itself 4 or 5 more times depending on the platform layout and damage, what was that silly ol move called again? Oh yeah, up air. Good thing cargo up-throw links into it from 0 to 300.
 

CELTiiC

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A lot of characters can 0 death on tech chase sitautions like Falcon, or Charizard. Should that ever happen? Not unless your being read like a children's book. Meta Knight's poking down-tilt in fact does not out range our own down tilt, both of which come out on frame 6 and would theoretically trade if both were input on the same frame. In fact DK will win a crouch cancel war against meta knight as his optimal down tilt hitbox for breaking crouch is the inside hitbox which is very limited in range. Looking up your most recent encounter with Sartron shows me why your being juggled for days, your only used options for coming down were to challenging him with fair/dair, two incredibly laggy moves that are easy to beat. It seems to me that you are the one who doesn't understand the neutral game when half of the time you went around slinging shffled fair only to get shield grabbed. You also might want try using that one move that links into itself 4 or 5 more times depending on the platform layout and damage, what was that silly ol move called again? Oh yeah, up air. Good thing cargo up-throw links into it from 0 to 300.
A little hostile approach don't you think lol? Metaknight has great frame data for tech chasing and DK has a laggy tech roll which create a bit of a problem. The caliber of Metaknights you play must not be too great, because you fail to acknowledge Metaknight's clear strengths. Also we do not have a "zero to death on Metaknight regardless of DI." We can zero to death Metaknight with awful DI but not as easily as you make it seem. Also with Metaknight's u-air and up-smash he has a much easier time juggling us because of our size, and has better finishing options because of his multiple jumps and great d-air, n-air and dimensional cape which easily combo into his u-air. Also Metaknight can either d-air or n-air at the ledge also and edge guard us for days and if we recover high we are forced into an u-air trap or juggle. I don't know why you have such a hard time admitting DK loses to Metaknight, it's pretty obvious. We have great tools to combat Metaknight, and personally I've never struggled that greatly against Metaknight, but that doesn't mean we don't lose the matchup.
 
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Brass Monkey

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My hostility came from his assumption that I know nothing of the matchup. I live in the Southeast, I've been to Florida before. My feelings are of course that the matchup is even as long as a DK is willing to commit to a more effective style. The only throw that can initiate a tech chase for any duration is down throw. Up throw can be DI'd away (infront of him) and jumped out of after about 30. Back throw can be DI'd up and also jumped out of. Metaknight's throws aren't exactly quick, you can always just DI the backthrow and then change it if he uses another throw. Knowing this Metaknight, can get only one punish on DK if he simply reacts to the down throw and DI's down and away and simply techs away. DK's techroll may have some lag at the end but functionally goes quite far. Metaknight simply runs out of room to techchase DK. The zero to death on Metaknight is in fact guaranteed unless we either run out of stage with which to follow him or he forgoes regular DI and smash DI's our up-air upwards (which isn't going to happen). Going into debug mode has shown me that cargo up throw into 4 shffled up airs into giant punch will in fact always connect because he is always in hitstun. Because he's still at low percent throughout most of the combo we can follow him for as long the stage will allow us, and even reverse our direction to follow him if he mixes it up. It is a true combo. If you land an aerial at 0 into a grab, then you only need 3 up airs into the punch. The edgeguard situation sucks for us, but what matchup does it not? On the flip side we can easily edgeguard Metaknight. He doesn't produce a single aerial capable of outranging our own Bair. Simply go out there and end him. A fair from him is the worst thing that will happen. Even though he has multiple jumps, one failed attempt from him is death due to his fall speed. At least we get multiple chances to come back.The largest factor that hasn't been brought up is the fact that Meta Knight can't really deal with crouch cancel except with grab. It absolutely blows my mind how bad it is for him. He doesn't carry a single non smash attack that can break crouch cancel until DK's over 80. Dealing with Metaknight is like dealing with Marth, keep grounded and uproot him. If we can space against Marth, then we can space against Metaknight whom trades some range for a bit more ground speed.

Edit: If i am still sounding hostile, my apologies. I am merely refuting the claims that Metaknight has a 0 to death tech chase on us and a farther reaching down tilt when he in fact does not. Debate is important in any matchup spread and would be eager to hear how any of you deal with Link or Charizard, two of my personal weaknesses.
 
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CELTiiC

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My hostility came from his assumption that I know nothing of the matchup. I live in the Southeast, I've been to Florida before. My feelings are of course that the matchup is even as long as a DK is willing to commit to a more effective style. The only throw that can initiate a tech chase for any duration is down throw. Up throw can be DI'd away (infront of him) and jumped out of after about 30. Back throw can be DI'd up and also jumped out of. Metaknight's throws aren't exactly quick, you can always just DI the backthrow and then change it if he uses another throw. Knowing this Metaknight, can get only one punish on DK if he simply reacts to the down throw and DI's down and away and simply techs away. DK's techroll may have some lag at the end but functionally goes quite far. Metaknight simply runs out of room to techchase DK. The zero to death on Metaknight is in fact guaranteed unless we either run out of stage with which to follow him or he forgoes regular DI and smash DI's our up-air upwards (which isn't going to happen). Going into debug mode has shown me that cargo up throw into 4 shffled up airs into giant punch will in fact always connect because he is always in hitstun. Because he's still at low percent throughout most of the combo we can follow him for as long the stage will allow us, and even reverse our direction to follow him if he mixes it up. It is a true combo. If you land an aerial at 0 into a grab, then you only need 3 up airs into the punch. The edgeguard situation sucks for us, but what matchup does it not? On the flip side we can easily edgeguard Metaknight. He doesn't produce a single aerial capable of outranging our own Bair. Simply go out there and end him. A fair from him is the worst thing that will happen. Even though he has multiple jumps, one failed attempt from him is death due to his fall speed. At least we get multiple chances to come back.The largest factor that hasn't been brought up is the fact that Meta Knight can't really deal with crouch cancel except with grab. It absolutely blows my mind how bad it is for him. He doesn't carry a single non smash attack that can break crouch cancel until DK's over 80. Dealing with Metaknight is like dealing with Marth, keep grounded and uproot him. If we can space against Marth, then we can space against Metaknight whom trades some range for a bit more ground speed.
Fair rebuttal; you bring up some good points. Where I was going with the true combo is that most likely that combo won't be able to start from center stage everytime and if the Metaknight is smart they will DI to the closest edge possible to avoid continuing the pain, but I do see what you meant now. I agree with you though about playing Metaknight like Marth, and that's why I feel I don't have much difficulty in the match-up. DK fairs well with sword character which is a plus and it helps a lot against Metaknight. The biggest problem in the match-up is getting above Metaknight because there is almost no return back down to the stage as obvious. I just find it in Metaknights favor because DK has to play more strict and clean than he does in order to win.
 

DiZZ

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one thing that just makes your whole agrument out the window our dtilt might out range mk's but its doesnt excuse the fact its extends our hurtbox into mk's own dtilt which is disjointed and would still beat our's out, dk is so large to the point it doesnt matter what you do di wise he can react to almost everything heavies do including dk. \

Edit: read through comments more you seemed hostile and opened up at the end I personally play with crizor one of our top zards and generally win, this past weekend in the sponsor ship tourney I double 3 stocked him. I think with zard the mu is fairly even you need to have heavy spacing with short hop fairs ( at least in my experience) you can camp out zard all day his approaches are some of the worst I have seen in this game you just gotta lame him out and bait his crappy approaches.
 
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CELTiiC

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Edit: If i am still sounding hostile, my apologies. I am merely refuting the claims that Metaknight has a 0 to death tech chase on us and a farther reaching down tilt when he in fact does not. Debate is important in any matchup spread and would be eager to hear how any of you deal with Link or Charizard, two of my personal weaknesses.
For Link, powershielding is key. If you continuously knock his boomerangs and arrows back at him you will throw off his zoning game. Also when you see Link pulling in his pocket for boomerang go for n-air. N-air helps a lot since it clanks with most projectiles as well, and our punish game is bread and butter on Link. Get him off stage and keep him there.

For Zard, essentially just b-air camp the hell out of him. I have trouble depending on the player. Zard's n-air is super annoying to deal with especially because it hits below the ledge. Just stay grounded and space with tilts and b-air. Also never get above him hahah.

Edit: This would be my revised list.

Brutal (-3.0): :falco:

Hard (-2.0): :fox::toonlink::gw::zelda::ivysaur:

Disadvantage (-1.5): :peach::metaknight::falcon::popo::sheik::wolf::luigi2:

Slight Disadvantage (-1.0): :sonic::diddy::pit::lucario::squirtle::mario2::lucas::kirby2::rob::ness2::mewtwopm:

Even:
:link2::samus2::ganondorf::dedede::ike::charizard::marth::zerosuitsamus::dk2::pikachu2::warioc:

Slight Advantage (+1.0): :roypm::jigglypuff:

Favorable (+1.5): :snake::yoshi2:

Easy (+2.0): :bowser2:
 
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Sledj

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@ CELTiiC CELTiiC I would argue the ganon matchup is -1/-1.5. His chaingrab is devastating on DK and can usually end with a killing fair or bair. DK is completely free offstage, as ganon's fair beats out his upb solidly. Also what makes you think the samus matchup is even?
 

CELTiiC

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@ CELTiiC CELTiiC I would argue the ganon matchup is -1/-1.5. His chaingrab is devastating on DK and can usually end with a killing fair or bair. DK is completely free offstage, as ganon's fair beats out his upb solidly. Also what makes you think the samus matchup is even?
Fair enough. I could agree with a slight disadvantage since Ganon only really needs like 5 hits and because of how big DK is it doesn't take much to get them. For Samus, once you start power shielding her missiles this match up because a lot easier. Also cargo f-throw and b-throw if you read their DI right get you early kills. I've played 5 different Samus player's and haven't really had any difficulty so it may be personal bias I believe it's even.
 

DiZZ

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With the release of 3.6 full I would like to have more data collected any help would be awesome
 

Kalcium

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Just wanting to hear it from DK players, but why do you think the Falco match up is the worst?
 

DiZZ

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I think gnw is the worst, falco hurts because of lasers destroying us in the neutral (other then powershielding but even at top play the falco can prepare for the powershield and set up another laser), falco and his combo game on dk is pretty much to the point if you are competent one shine should be the stock and also falco can cover dk's recovery reliably if it be invincible bair from ledge or hell even dair which kills us mad early.
 

VenomCB

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Is DK really at such a disadvantage to fast fallers? Personally, when I fight space animals, or falcons of equal skill to myself it seems fairly even. If they can get in a combo then I die. If I get a grab then they die. Then again, the people I fight probably just don't know the matchup as well as they should...
 

CELTiiC

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Is DK really at such a disadvantage to fast fallers? Personally, when I fight space animals, or falcons of equal skill to myself it seems fairly even. If they can get in a combo then I die. If I get a grab then they die. Then again, the people I fight probably just don't know the matchup as well as they should...
Yes, that's how the match up ideally should work out. The problem is DK getting grabs. He has a poor neutral game and can't force opponents to shield. Once he gets a grab he is fine, but sometimes the problem is being able to get the grab while with Fox, Falco and Captain Falcon it's much easier to start a combo or get going.
 

Brass Monkey

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DK is in fact not at any significant disadvantage to any fast faller outside of Falco. Landing a grab on them at low percents, where it matters most, is as easy as landing any of his five aerials which all lead into grab when hit low to the ground and L canceled. Platform movement is a must and is something I never see enough of with his dash attack. There's also the underutilized option of pivot grabs that is entirely underexplored which when combined with DK's excellent dash dance/run speed can easily capitalize on any over extended shffle. DK can't force opponents to shield? Bull****, DK sports one of the best horizontal shffle speeds in the game alongside several aerials with high priority. Bair in particular is safe on shield even against King Dangledong if spaced correctly, nair is the go to option for a frontal attack, and up air can be used as a crossup on the backside of their shield for those that expect the nair. I have the pleasure of having one of the best damn Falcons in my state, Fatality, and I do fine against him for my skill level. The man's so legit he knocked Lucky out of the last Paragon in losers bracket by sporting one of the best neutrals of any Falcon around and yet I keep up with him just fine with our matches being last stock.
 

CELTiiC

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DK is in fact not at any significant disadvantage to any fast faller outside of Falco. Landing a grab on them at low percents, where it matters most, is as easy as landing any of his five aerials which all lead into grab when hit low to the ground and L canceled. Platform movement is a must and is something I never see enough of with his dash attack. There's also the underutilized option of pivot grabs that is entirely underexplored which when combined with DK's excellent dash dance/run speed can easily capitalize on any over extended shffle. DK can't force opponents to shield? Bull****, DK sports one of the best horizontal shffle speeds in the game alongside several aerials with high priority. Bair in particular is safe on shield even against King Dangledong if spaced correctly, nair is the go to option for a frontal attack, and up air can be used as a crossup on the backside of their shield for those that expect the nair. I have the pleasure of having one of the best damn Falcons in my state, Fatality, and I do fine against him for my skill level. The man's so legit he knocked Lucky out of the last Paragon in losers bracket by sporting one of the best neutrals of any Falcon around and yet I keep up with him just fine with our matches being last stock.
1.) DK is definitely at a disadvantage against Fox, I don't really know what you are talking about there. Falcon I can agree it isn't as bad as I once stated, but Fox is still hard for DK to deal with.
2.) Pivot grabs are not unexplored; just under utilized. The technique has been around since Brawl and almost all converted PM players from Brawl use them. Most of the better PM players come from a Melee background where Pivot Grabs aren't a thing and don't use them out of habit or ignorance.
3.) I understand what you are saying, but you are acting like Fox is standing still in shield when DK is approaching which is almost never the case. A Fox who plays the match up correctly will laser camp you til you approach and then punish your approach options since DK's approaches are very committal. They won't just be attacking your shield unless they are down and won't continuously put themselves in position to get grabbed because they very obviously know that is their weakness unless they have too. I don't know how great your Fox's are in your area, but they obviously don't know how to play the match up.
 
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Tomaster

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Mewtwo is probably a bigger disadvantage than he is put here, he'll combo DK for days and kill him early with edgeguards, and his floatiness will keep him from getting comboed too hard by DK. Also DK likes to kill off the sides which mewtwo is great at recovering from. And mewtwo probably wins the neutral cuz 1) he has projectiles 2) teleport->fair is really easy to hit on DK and if it fails DK doesn't have great punishes on mewtwo if he's behind him. Plus I just generally feel like DK loses by a lot to mewtwo from experience.

I hope DK gets something in the next patch that will make his spread more balanced..
 
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Brass Monkey

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21
Pivot grabs work the best on fox out of all of the fast fallers. Falco's lazers kinda put a dent our movement options outside of dash attacks through the air and Falcon's nair is exceptionally hard to space around and perform a pivot grab on. Fox lacks any meaningful approach that can't be pivot grabbed if DK dashes away and executes it correctly. Any fox that lazer camps a DK without a charged punch is an idiot. The punch itself makes killing him out of a throw trivially easy. Chainthrows to 40-50 then punch which should either kill or set up an edgeguard situation. Platforms around? Either jump on them before chainthrowing him or prematurely throw him up there and regrab the almost guaranteed tech. Backing himself into a corner and firing lazers is also extremely detrimental. The moment he's in a corner he's lost any ability to dashdance and retaliate in any meaningful form outside of run up shine/upsmash/grab which are all stuffed by our longer range. If DK rushes in only to wavedash back then he avoids any shffle attempt and grabs him. You said DK's approach options are limited and can be stuffed but everyone has access to dash into wavedash back or dash into shorthop into waveland back and using them often as a low commitment/high reward option works wonders. If all Fox does is sit in shield constantly and doesn't fall for the bait then we can use tomahawks with our great fastfall speed. The moment a fox has made a mistake he's done and because of our speed, it's not particularly hard for him to over commit if we're given space to roam. To add insult to injury, 3.6 has also robbed him of any form of a spike or meteor to edgeguard us with which leaves only ledge play. Ledge play also literally becomes a 50/50 because you can play chicken with his bair as long as DK hasn't initiated up-b to far from the ledge. Either go in full force or bluff him and let him whiff a bair and let us back onto the ledge for free.

Edit: In regards to the Mewtwo matchup, I feel that it's only a slight loss or even as long as one is aware of the exact range of teleport and plays around it. 3.6 has nerfed the range of fair which only leaves it as a tech read/combo move as it can no longer compete with our shffle nair. Don't stay in his teleport range if you can help it. As long as Mewtwo remains far, we get the punch charged. If he lets us in to close, we can crouch all of his tilts and beat him out. He also lacks many followups from throws outside of d-throw into teleport read on the tech which further warrants crouching. His projectile does little to hamper us outside of a full charge as we can just jab it to clank though a good Mewtwo might take that opportunity to teleport and strike. This situation again relies on positioning and knowing his teleport length. One last thing to note is that we are one of the few characters that can preemptively challenge his recovery and edgeguard him. Either roll out or rar fullhop out and throw out an aerial like nair/bair that he can't contest with and end him. Even if we trade with fair, it's fine. He'll also kill himself if he panics and blows the up-b to early as it lacks the range when compared to Zelda's up-b.
 
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Tomaster

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 16, 2015
Messages
435
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About the projectiles, as you implied, they're not meant to actually hit people, they're meant to limit their options and help mewtwo control the stage.. So they will still be a great advantage for mewtwo in the matchup since DK doesn't really have the aerial movement to avoid them completely. CC can be rough for mewtwo yes, it's one of the biggest advantages for DK in the matchup, but it's not unbeatable, you have to be careful not to abuse it. About the throw follow ups im not sure what you mean, M2 can usually do DI mixups (kinda) into an edgeguard in percents around 50%, or up throw and uair juggle, or dthrow mixups. And im not sure what you meant about the recovery either, could you rephrase that please?
 
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TastyCarcass

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 27, 2014
Messages
177
Why is everyone saying Yoshi's favourable? His double jump ruins DK's combos and he can land quite safely from it.
 

mimgrim

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
9,233
Location
Somewhere magical
I think this might be worth leaving here to be contemplated since it talks about DK's MUs a little bit.

I think most of DK's matchups are near even. If not all of them lmao. I think solo-DK could win a national. I don't see any matchups that are unrealistic for him to win. Especially with the current stage banning system. A lot of his "bad" matchups have a few select stages where he either wins or it is even. Thus, if DK wins game 1 on an even stage, winning game 3 is cake most of the time. DK's very polarizing on the stages he's good at or bad at in most matchups like how he ****s on fox on FD but gets **** on by fox on stadium for example, and smashville is about even. If DK wins game 1 you're in for a rough ride due to his polarizing importance of having the CP advantage. People think I'm insane for saying solo-maining DK is viable, but I got fourth going ALL DK at one of the biggest and most stacked PM nationals EVER (flex zone) and I wasn't even that good back then so that says quite a bit about DK as a character in my opinion. My fundamentals were nowhere near "4th best" at that tournament so the sky's the limit if you consider how much room for improvement I had fundamentally at the time. If I could hand my punish game and DK experience to M2K, I'm pretty sure he'd win any national going all DK lol. Just like if he could hand me his fundamentals, I could win any national.

Argument against the few successful DK mains out there: "People just don't know the DK matchup. That's why they won"
Counterargument: The DK matchup is just watch out for grabs, bairs, up airs, and up b oos. Nothing else he has is really out of the ordinary. People saying they "don't know the matchup" is just johns or BS for the most part. Everyone knows the DK matchup after playing one or 2 games v.s. a solid DK, unless they are stubborn and don't adapt. He's one of the simplest characters in the game...if you're getting grabbed by DK you're just getting straight up outplayed because everyone knows not to get grabbed by DK.

Oh btw, I've stated this before but I figured I'd say it again. I was a solo-DK main but I wasn't "pessimistic" about the character by any means. I've only been playing him significantly less recently because of being bored of him. Due to his simplicity/repetetiveness, I found it pretty boring to solo-main DK for a long period of time. However, when I'm playin for dat W, DK's my main man. Who needs fun when you're makin da bills right? ;)



Edit: BTW, yes you can count on me to show up whenever someone mentions the word "DK" to drop the truth smackdown. I have this sixth sense to know when and where people are talkin crap about my boy

Another Edit: I'm POOB
 

DiZZ

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
140
I think this might be worth leaving here to be contemplated since it talks about DK's MUs a little bit.
My only beef with that Is before he has legitimately talked about the mus he thinks are trash both openly and in group chats, the only mu I feel is really bad enough to make dk semi not viable is gnw and there is only one good one of those so no real worries tbh
 

Jacob29

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
530
I'm not sure about GnW.

After playing with my friend for quite some time, sometimes I get absolutely bopped one game only to bop him right back.

He dies real early, can be upthrown into fair too somehow. Also f-tilt is actually fairly decent vs him.

Somedays I think "kill me now this is a chore" to "lmao get fukt 2d man dying at 60%"
 

Brass Monkey

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
21
I had a chance to play against Mr Lz in friendlies at the last Paragon in Orlando and all 3 games went to 1 stock all on horrible stages for DK like Yoshi's Brawl. I also had a pocket G&W back in 3.02 so I knew how to DI his stuff and minimized my losses on his confirms. DK must DI his up-b behind him which will only net him bair at mid percents and nothing at high percents. Up-air strings are also not entirely real as if he has to shffle them to get them to work you can just DI out, have him jump towards you to up-air, and then DI behind him which kills any followups. If DK actually loses to G&W it isn't by much, you just have to respect d-tilt happy ones by utilizing f-tilt instead your own d-tilt and abuse d-air as an actual approach option because they'll just sit there waiting for another move to crouch. D-air of course can't be crouched as it is a meteor and will lead into a grab at low percents or fair at kill percents. If the G&W is being more aggressive and using movement alongside short hop double bacon then it's just back to shffle nair which stuffs anything but a well placed fair from him. His recovery is also super free if he tries to sweetspot because you can just time a fair from onstage and get a spike on him, while any on stage attempt can just be stuffed by nair/grab oos depending on how early he blows it.
 
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