DK MU Discussion Week 2- Link, Tink, Robin, D3, and Olimar

[Big O]

This week's discussion will be one of 12 aimed at completing MU discussions for the entire cast. Mains on both sides are encouraged to join in to breakdown and analyze these MU's. Please try to be both objective and descriptive with your thoughts. While figuring out who wins and by how much is important, the main focus should be on figuring out the best way to play the MU for both characters. At the end of the week, the MU ratios and a summary of the discussion will be available in the first post. Discuss!

The characters this week are all mid range specialists using projectiles along with their many disjoints to compliment there arsenals.

vs

vs

vs

vs

vs

Spoiler: Week 1: Mario, doc, Luigi, Kirby, and Pikachu

The characters for this week are all short ranged brawlers with excellent frame data and devastating combos on us once they get in.


vs 55 - 45

Strategy

• Jab, tilts, and Bair are all key moves in the MU
• Focus on zoning him with your superior range and outlasting him
• Don't stay still in neutral, slowly force him closer to the ledge
• Avoid getting too close to him or letting him get closer than your maximum grab range in general
• Just block or Jab his Fireballs if you don't have enough space or time to avoid them
• Edgeguard him with stage spike Bairs and threaten him with spaced Bairs to force preemptive air dodges
• Punish his ledge snaps from the stage with Dtilt/smash (Dair too with a good read)
• Use Up B to punish him when he messes up or misjudges a combo opportunity

Tips

• Don't waste your double jump during Utilt/Uair strings or air dodge low to the ground
• Be mindful of Mario's ability to land behind you when you block his aerials
• You can Up B out of Mario's multi-hitting Dair until he gets about 90% rage
• Up B is immune to FLUDD both on the ground and in the air (until you go into free fall)
• Be wary of Mario's ability to lean back with Fsmash, countering well spaced attacks with his strongest move
• His Dash Attack can stage spike you if you don't space your recovery properly
• Spaced Fsmash is pretty good and is safe on block
• Mario is slightly vulnerable to Uair juggling and can't beat DK's Uair while he's above DK
• Setup gimps with Cargo Dtoss offstage at high %'s or if you catch him w/o a jump

Summary

You win by living forever and using your range to safely poke at him and stuff any attempts to approach you. As long as you aren't sloppy, you shouldn't be getting caped or spiked offstage. If Mario isn't on point with his combos or struggles to land his smash attacks, he will struggle in this MU. Mario's combo ability, unique edge guard setups, and overall slippery nature allows him to always have the potential to mount a comeback or win out of nowhere. DK's disadvantage state and poor CQC also gives Mario plenty of openings to work with.

vs 60 - 40

Strategy (Same as Mario)

Tips (See Mario)

• Be careful offstage vs Doc Tornado because it KO's very early, especially with rage
• Doc can cape us from above more easily than Mario since his doesn't float
• His Up B OoS is a very potent option that also KO's, but has no invincibility
• Doc's SH Bair is vicious and a fairly safe spacing tool
• Doc Tornado is massively unsafe on block and is punishable with practically anything you want

Summary

This MU is very similar to DK vs Mario. The main difference is that his lower speed/maneuverability makes him easier to zone, juggle, and gimp. However, he hits a lot harder and doesn't have much trouble getting KO's. Overall, it ends up being an easier fight than Mario, but not by too much.

vs 45 - 55

Strategy (Same as Mario)

Tips

• Never clank with his Fireballs except with Jab
• Taking the hit vs his Fireballs is okay since it has minimal hitstun and won't lead into anything
  
• Luigi's low traction makes more of your moves safe on block
• Respect his Up B's KO power and never land on the stage with Up B
• His recovery is very exploitable if they can't do the jumpless Cyclone
• Use your superior mobility to run away from him if you have the lead (much more effective with platforms)
• His poor air speed makes his landings more susceptible to pivot grabs
• Juggle him and edgeguard him as aggressively as possible

Summary

DK vs Luigi is an awkward MU that requires a lot of patience. You don't really want to approach him while has some Fireballs going, but you also don't want to give him space to set them up. Once you get past the minefield of Fireballs you can start aggressively poking at him, but if you get too close his excellent CQC will overwhelm you as well. In the air you have way better mobility and he can't grab combo you, so the more time you spend fighting him in the air or offstage, the better off you will be. You really have to respect his Fireballs, dash grab, and Up B punishes or you will end up getting mauled by him.

vs 60 - 40

Strategy

• Use your superior mobility and range to safely zone and bully Kirby
• Try not to approach with short hops if he stays grounded
• Don't let him get close or he will overwhelm you
• Edgeguard him with stage spike Bairs and threaten him with spaced Bairs to force preemptive air dodges
• Punish his ledge snaps from the stage with Dtilt/smash (Dair too with a good read)

Tips

• Your grab won't whiff against Kirby while he is crouching or landing
• Utilt beats Kirby's Dair cleanly
• Fully charged Punches and 9 Punches will knock him out of his Down B
• Avoid his Dair offstage at all costs
• Uair KO's particularly early in this MU and is easiier to hit with against slow floaties like Kirby
• Pivot grabs and work well against approaches
• Don't mash against Kirbycides. You'll break out too low to recover anyway or with a wrong move and die for free while Kirby recovers

Summary

This MU is easy to play the wrong way and get bodied. If you approach with short hops while he's grounded you will whiff a lot and get your Bairs powershielded more often than you'd like. It is also one of the few MU's where DK can dictate the pace of the match and doesn't have to approach. The key to winning is staying grounded while Kirby's grounded and meeting him in the air with Bair/Uair at opportune times. You are stronger, tougher, more mobile, and have better reach. If he manages to get in it gets pretty ugly for you, but as long you you properly take advantage of your mobility and reach you won't have too much trouble.

vs 40 - 60

Strategy

• Stay grounded unless Pikachu is airborne
• Block, Jab, or Bair Tjolts if you can't safely avoid them
• Abuse your range advantage to keep Pikachu out
• It is probably a lot easier to punish his ledge options and ledge snaps than to aggresively edgeguard him
• When edgeguarding, bait him while aiming for where you think he will Quick Attack to rather than where he is

Tips

• Don't let him drag you downwards with his Bair offstage
• His Uthrow to Thunder requires a DI based read to combo, so mix up your DI
• If you don't throw out anything too unsafe Pikachu has to commit to KO you
• Pikachu's Up B stretches his hurtbox which can be exploited by DK's large hitboxes
• Pivot grabs and pivoting in general are useful to help space against his aerials
• Grabs won't whiff against his landing animations
• Try not to take Pikachu to Lylat or BF type stages since he can spam and cancel his Up B on the platforms

Summary

This MU is hard mostly due to how slippery Pikachu is. He's too short to effectively approach from the air and is very mobile. Quick Attack is also one of the harder recoveries to challenge directly. Pikachu's major weaknesses are lack of range and struggling to KO safely. It is best to stay mostly grounded and contest his aerials with tilts/Bair. Pivoting is also useful against his aerial approaches due to his low air speed. Landing in some good hits is pretty tricky, but as long as you use your pokes wisely and don't get gimped you have a good shot at winning.

 

[atticusfinch7]

Won't go into too much detail since almost nobody plays this character anymore ( I stopped a good few months ago )
Doc loses this matchup for sure. First of all, his mobility is so limited, he can do very little besides full hop pill approach to get past DK's superior range. He can start a pretty long chain of Utilts like Mario after a dtilt, but his options out of Dthrow are limited. DK is so heavy, and Doc's dthrow is weight dependent, so he can't get his most reliable string of Dthrow->Turn around->Bair->Bair at low %. Instead he goes for Uair, which won't string into itself effectively because of low hitstun. Doc can kill DK a bit more easily than most characters, but it's nothing too dramatic.
Few things to note:
Be careful punishing his smashes. If they're at enough range to whiff, you probably won't have enough time to get near enough to throw something out safely. If you shield Usmash from the behind hit, pivot grab to punish sounds like it should work.
His recovery is easily taken advantage of, but be ready to tech if you do because his upB stage spike is stronger and faster than most upBs.
Avoid being grabbed at high %. Dthrow Fair is a somewhat true combo on some characters, unsure if it would be on DK but still a threat.
Like Mario and Luigi, many Docs like to use Nair to break and start combos. If you predict it and shield, it should be an easy shield grab.
Doc relies on landing with tornado to mix up his landing. Make sure you don't let go if shield when he does.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Paging @A2ZOMG . I'm sure he has stuff to say about this.

DK wins imo against both and (probably as well but I don't know too much about that).

• Can't combo effectively because DK's Up-B can interrupt things.
• Up air combos should technically work at higher percents but I don't think it will actually kill unless the stars are aligned (right percent range, with platforms, etc.)
• Weight dependent throw lag = harder to combo off of down throw (and up throw). Mario cannot kill reliably off of throws.
• Range disadvantage: a fundamental weakness of the Mario Bros characters is their poor range and inability to deal with safe (or 'safish') disjoints. DK's best footsie tool (bair) is hard to contest with Mario's best footsie tool (bair).
  
• KO power disadvantage. DK has higher KO power and a KO confirm off of Cargo Up Throw. Mario has Up Smash and that's about it.
• Both characters can punish each others' landings. Neither character has particularly easy ways to mix up their landings. Mario's Dair isn't great at dealing with opponents below him, but can kind of contest moves.
• Fireballs aren't very useful in this match. They can be powershielded, or nullified by DK's normals.

• Same pros (minus mobility) and cons (minus KO power and edgeguarding) as . Short hop Back Air is much better with Doc because Doc has a low short hop, his bair autocancels and it does 14%.
• "Up Air has low hitstun" myth needs to die. The angle doesn't compliment Doc's mobility specs or his other moves. It's technically possible to do Down Throw, double Up Air or Down Throw, Up Air, Up-B, but it's still hard if the DK constantly changes DI.
• Has chances to edge guard DK with Up-B and Down-B, but it's not easy to challenge DK's Up-B.
• Down-B helps Doc in a lot of ways. Mixing up landings, contesting moves, edgeguarding, covering landing options, recovering, etc. Should not be used predictably as DK can just grab or whiff punish.
• KO power is not as good as DK's but significantly better than Mario's KO power. Up Smash, Up-B OOS, Down-B on the sides, Back-Air can kill.
• Wavebounce/B-reverse sheet is a nice microspacing tool since it doesn't have a stall property and recovers quicker than one would expect.

wins just by exploiting the weaknesses of the Mario Bros and adding weight and throw combos to the mix. gets higher combo damage and his better mobility makes it easier to punish stuff, but it's still a win for the Kong.

45:55 for , 40:60 for .

 

[Ratatat]

and

I feel like you can just group them together, but I dont have a lot of doc experience.
Either way with Mario, im gonna say slight advantage for DK. 55-45
+You can outrange them with your tilts in every direction, as long as you can powershield fireballs effectively, approaching with powershields and tilts works really well for me.
+In the air backair is so easy to outrange him with
+dies pretty early to ding dong
+can get out of up tilt strings with up b
- cape can be an issue but the up b gives you ample air time to mix up your recovery, dont be sloppy and you wont be caped.
-up air strings can be deadly against us


I think this one is more even. Luigi just gets way more off the grabs than mario does, but both characters wreck each in the edgeguard game. 50-50 or 45-55
-Luigi with cyclone can gimp your recovery by sucking you in, and can shoryuken you if you try to recover high.
+Meanwhile the cooldown on luigis cyclone recovery is massive and punishable. and side b is easy to guard against with your bairs.
+same thing with spacing via tilts and needing powershields still applies.
-ding dong seems harder to land than average.



I think this pretty clear in DK's favor.
65-35
+Kirby's whole goal is to get in, but he will struggle with a character with so much reach.
+dk wins in the air as well because of Kirbys slow air speed and having nothing to compete with DK's bair.
+downtilt from dk reaches well and nullifies the use of kirbys crouch which they rely on so much
+kill him with ding dong at like 60 with rage.
+kirbys so light other things that arent normally strong kill moves become that. includ. back throw, u tilt, grounded up b
-kirby could combo you pretty hard if he got in, but even then youre dk.
-cant kill you with up throw or backair till pretty high percents and his combo game disappears after ~60


pika wins but its not horrible
40-60
-he'll edgeguard you so easily, watch out for thunderspikes
-combos us easily, at any percent really
-so fast that its hard to keep him out
-difficult to grab
+somewhat easy to trade attacks which of course is way in favor of DK, i usually jab quick attack or try and get in a bair to trade
+dont need to trade much to get to kill percents.

 

[Proto_DLN000]

- This matchup I think most everyone can agree upon being slightly in DK's favor. 55:45. DK simply outdoes Mario in certain areas like his greater range, and slight ease in ledgeguarding Mario, I think we can simply put stocks away quicker than Mario can. It's very easy for Mario to rack up damage here and keep us locked in combos, spare the ones we can occasionally break with Up-B, but securing the kill on DK is something Mario can struggle with. However, Mario has an alright projectile he can force us to approach with and FLUDD threatens our rather linear recovery to make for easier ledgeguard for mario, a cape being a sure kill for him.

I think the best way to play this matchup is to abuse our range, weight, and high damage output to end Mario's stocks quickly while avoiding being offstage as much as possible.

- This is strongly in our favor, I'd rate it at 60:40 at the least. In this matchup, sans kill power, Doc struggles for the same reasons Mario does while offering significantly worse recovery, to the point where a singular bair offstage can end a stock, and with Doc being unable to go quite as low as Mario, making it even easier for DK to land said bair.

This matchup is all about keeping Doc out and then getting him offstage for a quick and dirty ledgeguard.

- 60:40 for Luigi. This character just eats us up with his high damage, seemingly endless combos. While he's an easier ledgeguard, the neutral in this matchup is absolutely no fun for DK in the slightest. On top of everything, he has the smallest ding dong window in the whole game, making it a huge pain to try to wrap up kills on him in a timely manner. He's much like the other Mario brothers, but it overall feels like his more potent combos and weirdness play in his favor here. A stronger neutral than ours doesn't help either and a decent way to force an approach or cover his own in his projectile also sucks.

I think the best way to play this is to, again, abuse your range and play the don't get grabbed game. Mix up your recovery as well, as his down air presents a danger to DK's horizontal hitboxes on his recovery. Learn their fireball habits and abuse them when you can.

-60:40 for DK. Kirby combos the crap out of DK. The only problem is that Kirby's mobility, both in the air and on the ground, makes it very hard for Kirby to actually get in. Once he is in however, Kirby can wreak havoc at lower percents with simply combos. Kirby also has an easy time offstage with his dumb down air, but DK also has huge potential in ledgeguarding a character with such a low aerial speed. While Kirby is really good at harassing DK early on, closing out stocks is a problem for him while DK has no problem doing so against such a light character.

Once more! Abuse your range and potential to rack up a lot of damage quickly and kill very early. I think that's key in this matchup. Don't let your recovery become too standard or risk being easily spikes, and dont be afraid to punish their slow speed offstage.

- 100:0 Pikachu. No, but really, I can't see DK winning this matchup very often at all. 60:40 or 65:35 in Pika's favor. Pika has too many tools to harass DK and force him to approach while also being so tiny and quick it's hard to hit him at all. DK has to be a careful aggressor until he reaches a advantageous state, and then he needs to keep up pressure with hitboxes constantly to maintain this state until Pikachu's ready to die. Pikachu is by no means easy to ledgeguard, but thanks to bair being such a longer lasting move its possible to get some extra damage in before Pika makes it back.

Get your momentum going as much as you can, and be very very careful in what you do. You will get comboed, but like Sheik you shouldn't panic, as these don't amount to much until extremely high percents where Usmash is a strong threat.

Don't murder me for these short opinions as I'm ass at this game. Thanks.

 

[Big O]

Since there hasn't been much discussion, I feel like it would be best to extend the period for these characters an extra week. Hopefully by then we can get a little more discussion from both sides for these characters. I'll also be posting my own thoughts on each character throughout the week as well.

 

[A10theHero]

Out of all the super heavyweights, I think DK probably has the best matchup against Pikachu. DK's ftilt and dtilt are pretty good in neutral in this matchup. And the Ding Dong works for a decent range on him as well.
However DK being a heavyweight makes him susceptible to extended combos. So DK will likely reach a high percent very quickly. This might push him out of the Ding Dong range, but rage will still ensure that his already strong moves can kill Pikachu earlier.
In terms of ways Pikachu can kill DK, his main ways would be Up Throw to Turnaround Thunder and Fastfall Fair to Up Smash. For the former, it works for a pretty sizable range, but as long as the Pikachu main doesn't read your DI correctly or is too slow in performing the combo, it won't be true. Fastfall Fair has two hits, a pop-up hit and a spike hit. As the names suggest, the pop-up hit leaves the opponent slightly above the ground while the spike hit drags them to the ground. Depending on the hitbox that makes contact with DK last, the frame advantage is different: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...hj2Uhm1zB0DvBAmJkslqs5j4/htmlview?pli=1#gid=0
As you can see here, without rage, the pop-up hit gives Pikachu 2-5 frames to followup while the spike hit gives 3-6 frames. Do note that on the ground, DK's fastest option is F1 (shield), but in the air it's F4 (air dodge or Spinning Kong, which has intangibility starting on F3). So to follow up with Up Smash, Pikachu definitely needs rage to get a F10 Up Smash on DK (but still watch out for other followups such as F6 grab and ftilt).
As for edgeguarding, DK's bair is actually pretty good at getting the extended hurtbox of QA. Depending on the angle of QA used, you have about 1-4 frames to hit the vertical expansion. In general though, be careful if you try to edgeguard Pikachu. It can be kinda difficult without a read. Pikachu can tack on damage on DK pretty well, especially because of his projectiles. Moves that require Pikachu to be close to DK may not be as useful though because of Spinning Kong.
I probably should've talked about this first, but in neutral, DK has to be careful about him commitments. He has good pokes, which helps a lot. But Quick Attack is a strong punish tool and can effectively break neutral pretty well. It seems DK might have to be the one to approach because of Thunder Jolt. Approach that like you would with any projectile user, shield and advance. Of course, that's assuming you're fighting a Pikachu who's not afraid to camp like Captain L. If it's someone more aggressive like ESAM, they'll still probably come at you. Pikachu's safe moves are dtilt and retreating fair. And that's about it. They might try to use crossup fair, fastfall fair, SHAC dair or a RAR uair as a mixup, but you should be able punish those if you expect them and keep shielding (I'm not so sure about RAR uair though--it may or may not be safe).
As for favorable stages, DK would probably want to go to Smashville or Town and City. The smaller blastzones will greatly benefit DK. The only real caveat is that Pikachu can QAC on the moving platforms there. Be sure to ban Lylat because QACing there could lead to some...unpleasant things. You might want to ban FD too because a flat stage increases the effectiveness of projectiles. And while Battlefield and Dreamland have platforms to weaken this, Pikachu gains a strong mobility option through QALCing there. Duck Hunt helps camping, so definitely don't take Captain L-esque players there.
Overall, I would rate this matchup in Pikachu's favor. Around 55:45 or 60:40. DK is a pretty solid character so he can give Pikachu a hard time. But Pikachu can exploit his weaknesses pretty well.
I hope this helps.

 

[Blueberry Kong]

These are the matchups I end up using tilts the most. They have difficulty approaching due to their short range, so it is very easy to whack them away with an ftilt if they are approaching on the ground, or with bair if they are in the air. Pikachu is definitely a matchup worth talking about. You can play similarly to how you would play the other ones, but now you have to watch out for neutral b and quick attack. I find myself powershielding quick attack approaches then punishing with down smash which seems to work out well for me. You also have to watch out for fair off stage, since his fair is very powerful in this game, and can kill early off the sides.

Besides Pikachu, DK shouldn't have too much trouble in these matchups. Avoid getting grabbed and use tilts/bair to space out their poor range. If they are approaching on the ground, you can even use down b and grounded up b to keep them away if necessary. It is also very easy to bair these characters offstage for earlier kills.

 

[DanDanChan]

I feel like proper spacing and low risk moves are key to these matchups. If you get to close, or they shield a laggy move, you are going to be combo food at low percent, or die at high percent. But we havuhe something better than frame data, we have freaky monkey arms! (OK, maybe better is not the correct term. )

So play safe, tilt like it's going out of style, and keep the opponent at freakishly long arms length

 

[Big O]

Alright, so I'll just post some of my thoughts below. I may edit in more later.

vs 55 - 45

Strategy

• Jab, tilts, and Bair are all key moves in the MU
• Focus on zoning him with your superior range and outlasting him
• Don't stay still in neutral, slowly force him closer to the ledge
• Avoid getting too close to him or letting him get closer than your maximum grab range in general
• Just block or Jab his Fireballs if you don't have enough space or time to avoid them
• Edgeguard him with stage spike Bairs and threaten him with spaced Bairs to force preemptive air dodges
• Punish his ledge snaps from the stage with Dtilt/smash (Dair too with a good read)
• Use Up B to punish him when he messes up or misjudges a combo opportunity

Tips

• Don't waste your double jump during Utilt/Uair strings or air dodge low to the ground
• Be mindful of Mario's ability to land behind you when you block his aerials
• You can Up B out of Mario's multi-hitting Dair until he gets about 90% rage
• Up B is immune to FLUDD both on the ground and in the air (until you go into free fall)
• Be wary of Mario's ability to lean back with Fsmash, countering well spaced attacks with his strongest move
• His Dash Attack can stage spike you if you don't space your recovery properly
• Spaced Fsmash is pretty good and is safe on block
• Mario is slightly vulnerable to Uair juggling and can't beat DK's Uair while he's above DK
• Setup gimps with Cargo Dtoss offstage at high %'s or if you catch him w/o a jump

Summary

You win by living forever and using your range to safely poke at him and stuff any attempts to approach you. As long as you aren't sloppy, you shouldn't be getting caped or spiked offstage. If Mario isn't on point with his combos or struggles to land his smash attacks, he will struggle in this MU. Mario's combo ability, unique edge guard setups, and overall slippery nature allows him to always have the potential to mount a comeback or win out of nowhere. DK's disadvantage state and poor CQC also gives Mario plenty of openings to work with.

vs 60 - 40

Strategy (Same as Mario)

Tips (See Mario)

• Be careful offstage vs Doc Tornado because it KO's very early, especially with rage
• Doc can cape us from above more easily than Mario since his doesn't float
• His Up B OoS is a very potent option that also KO's, but has no invincibility
• Doc's SH Bair is vicious and a fairly safe spacing tool
• Doc Tornado is massively unsafe on block and is punishable with practically anything you want

Summary

This MU is very similar to DK vs Mario. The main difference is that his lower speed/maneuverability makes him easier to zone, juggle, and gimp. However, he hits a lot harder and doesn't have much trouble getting KO's. Overall, it ends up being an easier fight than Mario, but not by too much.

vs 45 - 55

Strategy (Same as Mario)

Tips

• Never clank with his Fireballs except with Jab
• Taking the hit vs his Fireballs is okay since it has minimal hitstun and won't lead into anything
  
• Luigi's low traction makes more of your moves safe on block
• Respect his Up B's KO power and never land on the stage with Up B
• His recovery is very exploitable if they can't do the jumpless Cyclone
• Use your superior mobility to run away from him if you have the lead (much more effective with platforms)
• His poor air speed makes his landings more susceptible to pivot grabs
• Juggle him and edgeguard him as aggressively as possible

Summary

DK vs Luigi is an awkward MU that requires a lot of patience. You don't really want to approach him while has some Fireballs going, but you also don't want to give him space to set them up. Once you get past the minefield of Fireballs you can start aggressively poking at him, but if you get too close his excellent CQC will overwhelm you as well. In the air you have way better mobility and he can't grab combo you, so the more time you spend fighting him in the air or offstage, the better off you will be. You really have to respect his Fireballs, dash grab, and Up B punishes or you will end up getting mauled by him.

vs 60 - 40

Strategy

• Use your superior mobility and range to safely zone and bully Kirby
• Try not to approach with short hops if he stays grounded
• Don't let him get close or he will overwhelm you
• Edgeguard him with stage spike Bairs and threaten him with spaced Bairs to force preemptive air dodges
• Punish his ledge snaps from the stage with Dtilt/smash (Dair too with a good read)

Tips

• Your grab won't whiff against Kirby while he is crouching or landing
• Utilt beats Kirby's Dair cleanly
• Fully charged Punches and 9 Punches will knock him out of his Down B
• Avoid his Dair offstage at all costs
• Uair KO's particularly early in this MU and is easiier to hit with against slow floaties like Kirby
• Pivot grabs and work well against approaches
• Don't mash against Kirbycides. You'll break out too low to recover anyway or with a wrong move and die for free while Kirby recovers

Summary

This MU is easy to play the wrong way and get bodied. If you approach with short hops while he's grounded you will whiff a lot and get your Bairs powershielded more often than you'd like. It is also one of the few MU's where DK can dictate the pace of the match and doesn't have to approach. The key to winning is staying grounded while Kirby's grounded and meeting him in the air with Bair/Uair at opportune times. You are stronger, tougher, more mobile, and have better reach. If he manages to get in it gets pretty ugly for you, but as long you you properly take advantage of your mobility and reach you won't have too much trouble.

vs 40 - 60

Strategy

• Stay grounded unless Pikachu is airborne
• Block, Jab, or Bair Tjolts if you can't safely avoid them
• Abuse your range advantage to keep Pikachu out
• It is probably a lot easier to punish his ledge options and ledge snaps than to aggresively edgeguard him
• When edgeguarding, bait him while aiming for where you think he will Quick Attack to rather than where he is

Tips

• Don't let him drag you downwards with his Bair offstage
• His Uthrow to Thunder requires a DI based read to combo, so mix up your DI
• If you don't throw out anything too unsafe Pikachu has to commit to KO you
• Pikachu's Up B stretches his hurtbox which can be exploited by DK's large hitboxes
• Pivot grabs and pivoting in general are useful to help space against his aerials
• Grabs won't whiff against his landing animations
• Try not to take Pikachu to Lylat or BF type stages since he can spam and cancel his Up B on the platforms

Summary

This MU is hard mostly due to how slippery Pikachu is. He's too short to effectively approach from the air and is very mobile. Quick Attack is also one of the harder recoveries to challenge directly. Pikachu's major weaknesses are lack of range and struggling to KO safely. It is best to stay mostly grounded and contest his aerials with tilts/Bair. Pivoting is also useful against his aerial approaches due to his low air speed. Landing in some good hits is pretty tricky, but as long as you use your pokes wisely and don't get gimped you have a good shot at winning.

 

[Big O]

The characters for this week's discussion are Link, Tink, Robin, D3, and Olimar. With both disjoints and a strong projectile game, these characters can be quite tricky to deal with. Feel free to post your opinions, thoughts, and strategies on the MU.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Heyo! I come from the Dedede boards to talk about the DK matchup.
Now this matchup is in a very strange spot for me, because for the longest time I could not find a DK that could even beat my Dedede, and the two DK mains I know always prefer to use a different character to fight Dedede, which made me think that Dedede must have a clear advantage over DK, then I finally faced a DK at 0-1 at a tourney, so he couldn't have been that good of a player to lose his first set, and he beat me pretty well, giving me my second 0-2 in my smash career. Getting 0-2'd by a character that I always thought was a winning MU is a humbling experience, and made me rethink the MU

To start off, Dedede certainly does have advantages in this MU that are very hard to come by with other characters. For instance, DK cannot force Dedede to approach, which actually allows Dedede to play defensive, and is a significant advantage right at the start. In fact, Dedede can even somewhat pressure DK to approach since DK's gordo reflect options aren't the best. U-tilt is probably the best and safest, B-air is good but only hits a precise spot, and Nair can work but often trades. Gordos therefore pester DK big time, and allows for DDD to set up traps and hazards that are hard for DK to work around. Often I like to always have a gordo out in this MU because it is not often that gordo gets so much return for the commitment of throwing it out. Another huge advantage in this MU is DDD's hammer, and the range that comes with it. This allows DDD to outrange almost all of DK's moves, except Bair, so DDD can make it difficult for DK to get in. Also, DDD can hit DK out of his Up B when he is recovering thanks to the hammer. And of course, DK is a large and easy target to hit with said hammer.

Thanks to these advantages, the MU becomes very difficult for DK to play, and most will probably not know how to work around all of this, which is why I thought the MU was so good for so long. However, DK does have some good workarounds to these things.

DK's advantages are still very influential in the MU. The first I would like to point out is B-air. DDD can't really punish Bair, and it outspeeds and outranges most of our moves, and does good damage and knockback to boot. Really hard to work around. Also, DDD is especially susceptible to cargo throw combos, and due to our size and fall speed, Cargo throw combos will work for a long time, even if they don't kill as early. Also, DDD is fairly easy to grab, since none of our moves are safe on shield. This means that you will indeed get many grabs and rack up damage quickly with them. Also DK's mobility is much higher than DDD's, so DK can often control the stage much better than DDD if there is no gordo or DK can deal with it. So what DK wants to do is squeeze every grab and percent out of his punish game, because DDD is easy to punish, and use Bair frequently to challenge DDD and whatever move he will throw out, and stay aggressive and close to him, ideally just outside of our grab range. Remember to approach wisely, and once you get past our hammer range, you can get a lot of damage in.

Given my past record with DKs, I still rate this MU an even 50 - 50
If DK doesn't respect gordo and DDD's hammer, he won't stand a chance, but if he is mindful of these, and gets good damage off of each approach, he will control the match. Neither of these heavies can beat the other easily, and I think that generally, whoever the better player is will win, and who is playing what character doesn't matter that much at all in this MU, so I rate it even.

 

[Ratatat]

45-55
I always seem to struggle with projectile characters as DK. but link is one of the least difficult ones.
I still give Link a small edge bombs, hookshot, and boomerang are not fun to deal with. also gets late combos after throws that seem to kill sometimes. but he's pretty easily comboable himself and bad recovery so its easy to gimp him with bairs.


30-70
Tink on the other hand is a nightmare, every tink ive played has camped me so hard i didnt really know what to do other than switch characters.
he's so fast and small, he's got a better boomerang and his zair is still super effective. up air and backthrow seem to kill me early in this. yeah not sure at all what to do.


40-60
played this matchup once. got wrecked but didnt seem as bad as tink. its just scary to get comboed by her two combo projectiles. and when she hits you with the sword in the air it hurts so much.


60-40
as long as your patient enough to get around the hammer. its pretty easy to jab gordos. and you beat him in the air pretty much all the time.


35-65
its super easy for olimar to rack up damage on dk (of course) and kill him too actually. the only thing that keeps this in the realm of possibility is olimars weight and easy to gimp recovery. i find f tilit and grounded up b very useful in this matchup.

some of these may be way off, but i have only seen each of these characters once in tournament play so others may have more information than i do.

 

[micahismyname]

As a link main, I think Link wins the neutral but loses the overall matchup. Maybe I'm DIing it wrong but the Ding-Dong combo seems to be impossible for Link to escape. Shamelessly fishing for grabs is actually a legit strategy here. Just get him up to 80% and kill him off the top.

 

[super fan bros]

I play Donkey Kong in secondary.

I don't know the MU against Link, Toon Link, Robin and Olimar, but for DDD I think me know a little.

DDD has the reach, a projectile, the recovery and the powser in her favor. For DK, he has the rapidity , the spike and a better game on the shield. For the combo, the are even. Because they have no hurt at to placer their combo. For edgeguard, DDD can be slighty better. Their throw are are well to both but those of DK are better because they are more powerful and they over opportunity to begin a combo.

Overall I would say than DDD is slighty favored. 45-55 imo for

 

[Moobussir]

Every other Toon Link says DK is a free matchup, but personally, I've felt like DK has a decent advantage at times. You can get combo'd and pressured for days, but once rage kicks in and you make it hard for us to land finishers, suddenly DK is a scary opponent. If you take us to a small stage like Dream Land, we don't have many places to run with good coverage from attacks like your Bair and Up-air. We're on the lighter side so we can die rather quickly to Ding Dong and such. But in edgeguarding be extremely careful, I can imagine Up-B is a good edgeguard move from you but we will usually be armed with a bomb, and hookshot is very popular to recover with, sending us from offstage to gimping you in a second if you're close to the ledge. Overall stay patient, don't overextend and punish Toon Link when he gets cocky XD. At best, 60:40 Toon Link I think

 

[Axel311]

I have a good idea of this MU. I currently co-main DK, and I mained Dedede for 8 months before dropping him.

I used to think that Dedede won this solidly, but the more I play DK the more I've realized that this isn't the case.

Stage selection is a huge factor. Flat stages make this matchup much better for Dedede. Flat stages allow more gordo utilization, allow Dedede better air camping/fast fall bairs/reverse inhales, and DK loves platforms regardless. If you get under Dedede on a platform above you it's going to be really hard for him to land. As DK you want to take Dedede to dreamland, lylat or battlefield. T&C is a mixed bag because it obviously gives the lower ceiling, but being flat it also gives Dedede a better neutral. Ban FD for sure, in my view that's easily Dedede's best stage in this matchup.

As for gordos, DK can just powershield, jab or bair the gordos. They aren't a big issue generally although DK's big hurtbox makes them harder to deal with than other characters. Just respect them. You can't just run in against Dedede or you'll get punished, you have to approach carefully.

They are both about even offstage I feel. Dedede's recovery ihas good distance and super armor but it is predictable and easy for DK to run off stage and bair or spike with dair (dedede's recovery has no super armor at its apex). DK being bad on the ledge is really susceptable to gordo traps and Dedede can actually get some gimps with his normally bad dair because of how predictable DK's recovery is. Gordo snipes are also a thing.

Range is pretty comparable, and DK has better frame data. Dedede's bad airspeed is really abusable by DK's bair. DK's hurtbox size is susceptible to fast fall bairs from dedede and reverse inhales.

I think in neutral they end up being pretty even. Dedede can camp, play passively and force approaches. But when DK gets in he is massively rewarded, he gets more off of grab than Dedede does and Dedede has a hard time getting away or landing due to poor airspeed. Due to Dedede's fall speed and size, he gets a lot of % off cargo combos.

But DK wins the matchup because the deciding factor is DK can kill Dedede much easier than Dedede can kill DK. Dedede generally can't kill DK without a hard read using a move that's punishable, whereas DK has his amazing ding dong kill confirm. DK also has a kill throw which Dedede doesn't have, and a nice wildcard with giant punch. Dedede is generally going to have to get a dsmash read or land a bair which won't kill all that early as Dedede usually has to stale it.

Also, this MU is much harder for DK online, as lag makes gordos much better.

+1 in DK's favor, or 55-45 DK's favor.

 

[Dre89]

I have a good idea of this MU. I currently co-main DK, and I mained Dedede for 8 months before dropping him.

I used to think that Dedede won this solidly, but the more I play DK the more I've realized that this isn't the case.

Stage selection is a huge factor. Flat stages make this matchup much better for Dedede. Flat stages allow more gordo utilization, allow Dedede better air camping/fast fall bairs/reverse inhales, and DK loves platforms regardless. If you get under Dedede on a platform above you it's going to be really hard for him to land. As DK you want to take Dedede to dreamland, lylat or battlefield. T&C is a mixed bag because it obviously gives the lower ceiling, but being flat it also gives Dedede a better neutral. Ban FD for sure, in my view that's easily Dedede's best stage in this matchup.

As for gordos, DK can just powershield, jab or bair the gordos. They aren't a big issue generally although DK's big hurtbox makes them harder to deal with than other characters. Just respect them. You can't just run in against Dedede or you'll get punished, you have to approach carefully.

They are both about even offstage I feel. Dedede's recovery ihas good distance and super armor but it is predictable and easy for DK to run off stage and bair or spike with dair (dedede's recovery has no super armor at its apex). DK being bad on the ledge is really susceptable to gordo traps and Dedede can actually get some gimps with his normally bad dair because of how predictable DK's recovery is. Gordo snipes are also a thing.

Range is pretty comparable, and DK has better frame data. Dedede's bad airspeed is really abusable by DK's bair. DK's hurtbox size is susceptible to fast fall bairs from dedede and reverse inhales.

I think in neutral they end up being pretty even. Dedede can camp, play passively and force approaches. But when DK gets in he is massively rewarded, he gets more off of grab than Dedede does and Dedede has a hard time getting away or landing due to poor airspeed. Due to Dedede's fall speed and size, he gets a lot of % off cargo combos.

But DK wins the matchup because the deciding factor is DK can kill Dedede much easier than Dedede can kill DK. Dedede generally can't kill DK without a hard read using a move that's punishable, whereas DK has his amazing ding dong kill confirm. DK also has a kill throw which Dedede doesn't have, and a nice wildcard with giant punch. Dedede is generally going to have to get a dsmash read or land a bair which won't kill all that early as Dedede usually has to stale it.

Also, this MU is much harder for DK online, as lag makes gordos much better.

+1 in DK's favor, or 55-45 DK's favor.

DK bodies D3 if he knows how to play the MU. You can just bair wall to deal with gordos because D3 doesn't have the mobility to punish it. They have similar range but DK is faster and destroys D3 when he gets in on him.

 

[Axel311]

DK bodies D3 if he knows how to play the MU. You can just bair wall to deal with gordos because D3 doesn't have the mobility to punish it. They have similar range but DK is faster and destroys D3 when he gets in on him.

It's not that simple, a smart D3 isn't going to just throw out gordos at unsafe distances for DK to bair and get free damage. DK's biggest struggle in this matchup is getting in. DK I think wins, but he by no means bodies D3 and getting in on D3 is by no means a cakewalk. D3 can punish DK leg spam in neutral. Yeah their range is similar but D3 has a big fat disjoint that DK doesn't, that means a lot. DK is forced to approach and D3 shines when he can actually play his passive campy style and isn't forced to approach. DKwill puts the matchup at +1 for DK, just FYI, so he doesn't think DK bodies Dedede either.

 

[Bigbomb2]

I have a bit in the Link department for this but not sure how detailed I can be. Overall a lot of people give it a 50:50. In neutral Link can pepper the crap out of DK, and a while has trouble confirming hits on small characters, DK has a lot of trouble getting away from some of his followups. And Link has very potent followups. Never underestimate Link's edge guarding, and be mindful of him holding a bomb when you try to gimp him or combo him. Basically, become a power shield god and you will do much better in CQC once you close the gap. But just remember a good Link is nothing like a FG Link and actually has some nifty tricks you have to watch out for.
I don't know what else to add, this is just coming from a Link's perspective and how DK's normally had to adapt.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

VS:75-25
Now if there is anything that makes me feel like a piece of shi*, it's fighting a DK with Toon Link. This matchup is cruel. CRUEL. Toon Link can shoot an arrow in the air followed with throwing boomerang on the ground to limit he's options. Think of it as DK running straight into projectiles the entire match. Toon can DANCE around DK all day with Bombs. DK is almost forced to be in shield all the time because of the fact that a DK without shield is a bigger version of Sandbag. You are going to get grabbed like 7 times per stock. Bomb-Kill Move is easy to land because of high weight and large hurtbox. Not that big of a deal, but DK can go from 0% to like 28% if he falls into an U-Tilt stream. The reason I wouldn't say the matchup is vs bad is because Rage DK can easily catch Toon Link with an Uair a 70% and he dies. He also outspaces Toon Link w/o projectiles.