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Discovering The Mysteries of Cargo BreakOut.

Soniclamp

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 6, 2019
Messages
13
Hey there! Lamp again with another Melee DK Post!
IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE SMASH BOARDS THREAD ON JUMPKEEPING START THERE.
Starting at the beginning Cargo is the act of DK grabbing an opponent and pressing forward to put the character on your back and move them around while still in a grab state, Cargo is weight dependent for how many frames it take to put them on his back. Cargo-ing an opponent is the most powerful position that DK could be in, it can go into: Re-grabs, Up-air strings, Kill confirms like fair, strong hit Up-B or full charge punch, Run off to trade a stock and now more recently Aerial Cargo Breakout (ACB).
Lately, I've been really interested in the last 2 Personally, I feel its a very advantageous spot for DK and we know very little about them.
1. While in the lead running off while holding an opponent can lead to some very serious swings.
2. After trading a stock DK re-spawns and can charge a punch up to wind 7-8 before intangibility ends
3. Starting fresh is really good for DK in most mu's DK only needs a grab to possibly combo to death while most other characters need to chip at a fresh DK a bit more, while also starting with a close to full punch making trading even better.
4. With things like Jumpkeeping It gives you access to those big swings with the possibility to survive and maybe repeat.
5. The burden of mashing is always on the opponent it is almost impossible to be frame perfect to punish after mashing out of Cargo.
So finding a way to keep them stuck in an unfavorable trade could be very beneficial for DK, especially if DK lives.

What was I looking for?
Mostly at the beginning I wanted to provide frame data on ACB, It's a move that does damage on mash out and has lag frames I was surprised there wasn't already some kind of frame data on it considering its technically a move.
Also can it be DI'd? or is it weight or percent dependent?
Lastly, trying to find some consistency in a really undocumented circumstance, good or bad.

Frame Data:
The only 20XX colors that really matter are RED which means IN-ACTIONABLE and LIGHT RED which means ACTIONABLE NEXT FRAME.
ACB Frame Data Numbers at the top say what frame its on.
After running off stage and having the opponent mash DK suffers:
-The same number of HIT STUN for all the tested meta relevant characters (Actionable on frame 16)
-The same angle on breakout for all tested characters which is pushed back, slightly up and suspended in the air for a few frames
-DK is closer to the ledge after breakout than the opponent by a lot (he hangs for a few frames while the opponent still descends)
-The hit stun cannot be DI'd or SDI'd pushes the 2 players apart pretty far.
-Depending on the angle DK can drift inside opponent with the frame advantage to set up for an Up-B
-DK's Double Jump starts up on frame one and he can use his frame advantage to get closer for the up, can be combined with drift or fastfall.
-DK's aerial Up-B comes out on frame 2
-Short hopping off stage while cargo-ing If done with Jumpkeeping can set up for a strong hit Up-b that just kills
-Set Knock back at any percent kinda like Yoshi D-Tilt


Adversely the mashing opponent:
-Hit Stun cannot be DI'd or SDI'd
-Different Hit stun frames dependent on weight
-In cases where the lag is frame 18 or later DK's Up-B will always come out before they can act.
  • *Fox & Falco actionable at frame 18
  • *Jigglypuff & Pichu actionable at frame 19
  • *Peach Sheik & Marth actionable at frame 17 Marth Data and Angle
  • *DK & Bowser actionable at frame 16
-Depending on the weight also determines the angle (Seems pretty conclusive that they go on angles similar to their actionable frame class Fox and Falco, Peach and Marth) the best angle so far seems to be Jigglypuff, which seems like its a true combo to strong hit with Up-B Jigglypuff after DK's hit stun.
-Cannot grab ledge till after hit stun if they happen to break out near the ledge (if DK hasn't run off yet)
-Has the burden of mashing where percents will make it always a different breakout frame
-Lot of options limited if Jumpkept
-Set Knock back at any percent kinda like Yoshi dtilt
-The lighter the character the better the angle and the longer the hit stun, the better the angle for DK.

Where to aim the breakout:
To start, getting the opponent to mash where you want to is really hard, but using clues such as how fast do they mash and if you can condition them to mash by pummeling. This will inform what options you could possibly go for.
The options you have out of ACB very between character, percent and even the stage.
With Up-B also being a frame 2 move it can be really hard for certain characters to deal with offstage, and if DK can make it back he has a really strong edge-guarding game.
With all that being said lets get into the options.

Jumping off the stage:
-Gives DK the best chance to survive as he still has access to his jump and Up-B at a very good angle.
-Is also the best for Jumpkeeping as it gives your opponent the most amount of time to mash, while the decent is slow enough that DK can recover with his double jump if they breakout/trade with an Up-B.
-Again is the best in the given options for survival and is useful in match-ups where the opponent has to psychically go through you to get back to the ledge, (I.E Marth Falcon)
-Not as good vs space animals as the angle because of the weight they are sent at is low enough that it gives them plenty of options.

Walk off fast fall holding forward:
-All of these options in worst case expect a trade if the opponent don't mash or mashes too low, this option is strictly best for the outright trade.
-It's what were all familiar with run off SD, but with small optimizations.
-The best scenarios I noticed were vs Fox, Falco and Marth.
-Fox and Falco because after breakout they fall the fastest, It takes them a long time to be actionable at 18 frames they also end up under DK giving him a chance to hit them recovering to keep Fox/Falco down.
-Marth because of the angle he has to double jump into DK and Up-B giving DK a lot of chance to snag his jump, DK's Up-B can give Marth a lot of trouble especially in a struggle situation.
-Will also buffer leaning in to the opponent giving DK the closest range to follow up.
-Teching is also an option for DK if hes at high enough percent and is hit by any up b he could tech the stage and live, cargo break out sends him at a good angle for this and the positioning to the stage gives DK an extra bit of advantage in the ACB scenario.

Slow Fall off, hug stage and ledge slide off:
-These are probably the options with the most potential.
-The way this works when DK enters ACB DK is pushed back and up for around the first 10 frames, but if done while hugging the stage, specifically the ledge then DK will be pushed more into the opponent giving his Up-B have a better chance to connect before they break out of hit stun from the ACB.
-Due to DK's ECB being really low (the reason why he cant make it on stage in the event of a high air dodge) If DK is even slightly off the stage when the ACB takes place he will be pushed from the ledge into the opponent, this could have a really high potential.
-With Double Jump starting at frame 1 DK can lean into them, jump or both into to the opponent with his few frames of advantage while they are still in hit stun to have the best chance for Up-B.
-Being so close to the ledge give DK the ability to buffer tech as hes so close to the stage increasing survivability.
-Hugging the wall also gives stages like Yoshi's more usability.
-Works best on Dreamland, Yoshi's and Fountain. Theres also a lip on Fountain and FD that stops DK from being pushed up as much.
-Works really well on Puff as either a hard trade or a kill at high percent as theoretically DK is close enough and Up-B comes out before Puff is actionable
-Seems like it also has potential vs Sheik and Marth
-Shiek and Marth are sent at a good angles with this method for DK to possibly follow up, and Marth having to go through DK at the wall can be very difficult.
-DK also doesn't need the ledge slide off as the push back from wall hugging still shortens the distance a significant amount.

ECB Ledge Slide off
Slow walk off Jigglypuff
Dreamland Ledge Slide off
Regular Sheik Release to compare
Regular Fox Release to compare
Fox ACB Ledge Slide off to compare
Marth ACB Ledge Slide off

Jump Backwards ACB:
-Basically like Slow Fall off, hug stage and ledge slide off, but backwards trying to use that wall push back to gain advantage.
-This is the option with probably the least amount of potential, but its an option so might as well include it.
-Unfortunately DK can't turn around while sliding off the ledge, so he has to jump.
-Puts opponent in the advantageous spot of next to the wall.
-The options I can see while the least tested of the 4 would be, if fox/falco are jumpkept on battlefield if you turn around and short hop off you can jump off and drop them off under the stage with only an Up-B.
-You might be able to do that on Battlefield without Jumpkeeping, but would be more inconsistent.
Jump Backward ACB


Possible reading on reacting to break out:
To Start, odds are the opponent will be mashing and will every so often will mash an option that could be good or bad for you, they might burn a DJ or SD mashing out but still can make reading options pretty inconsistent.
The angle that DK is pushed at is way better than the opponents angle DK can:
-Grab ledge/Have a head start to ledge with his frame advantage, Up-b Edgeguard.
-Jump into them and Up-B starts on frame 2 and can take the DBL jump (Best option in a scramble)
-Read a DBL jump as its one of the only options they have, and could put them in a worse spot. Esp Dtilted or grabbed.
-Read a Up-b if you're trying to trade anyway if fox goes into Up-B its 43 frames giving you ample time to punish it with what ever or grab ledge
-Fast fall Up-B
-If ledge release is done you can shield/shield grab, cc, dtilt, up-b to grab ledge or line up a strong hit Up-B on the DBL jump back (Cargo/ledge release should not be used as they make DK suffer more lag than his opponent)
-Some characters like fox have shine to make this a bit harder but other characters don't have options that fast and Up-B will probably come out faster.
-Buffer stage tech
paying attention to mashing habits can be really beneficial.
I go for these in games most players don't really know whats happening and will either double jump, line up side b's or Up-B. Letting DK net DJ Dair's, Up-B's, Nair or DJ charge punch if your reads good enough.

In this video there are clips When I go for ACB reads.


Quick few notes
- Yoshi's story is the stage with probably the least amount of potential (Not terrible vs falco, DK and falcon) the bottom blast zone is so close and has a wall that goes all the way down, Fox and Marth can wait till DK hits the blast zone and DBL jump and Up-B to ledge.
-Every stage could possibly have its own application with any matchup.
-Originally I thought releasing from the ledge (keeping DK on a grounded release and the opponent off stage on an aerial release)
While dk does end the frames from his cargo at frame 11 the grab release pushes him up slightly and makes hit have to wait in
landing and not able to act for 30+ total frames. Oof. (Where as with ACB its always 16 frames)
- Grounded release cargo release puts DK negative a lot of frames upwards of 15 behind the released opponent.
-Aerial release is always better for frame advantage but in certain Jumpkeeping setups grounded cargo release can still be good.

Conclusions:
-While a lot of these aren't optimized I'm mostly glad that I was able to get the frame data and understand both grounded grab release, aerial release and clear up some of the mysteries around it, even though there's probably a lot more that could be tested.
-I also wanted to make a case that an in general trading stocks or forcing DK favorable 50/50s offstage could be really good, especially with a lead or high percent, and is a situation where your opponent would be inexperienced.
-That their could an incentive to find efficient ways to trade with DK and that cargo could be a great tool for that.

Thanks for reading that's all I got for right now! I had no clue Itd' be this long theirs still so much to test just wanted to get my general thoughts out about it and put the frame information out and hopefully further the conversation. Love to hear what you guys think! Thanks again for reading! <3
Why does 20XX do this lol
 
Last edited:

Soniclamp

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 6, 2019
Messages
13
Link to Jumpkeeping:
 

CAUP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
467
I'm just seeing this since I log into Smashboards irregularly.

I still really urge you to name it something besides jump keeping. That is an actually horrible name.

This is a good area to focus on for further DK development since as a lower tier, you've got to exploit the decent mixup situations you have, even if they're very swingy. I think DK suicides fall into this category. I do think against opponents who mash well, DK's entire grab game is much more limited than against people who don't mash.

Yeah good stuff though. Message me on discord if you have any specific areas you're interested in labbing.
 
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