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Directly Impacting Results - A new criteria

Raziek

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It's the fact that certain transitions randomly assist with the win criteria of TIMING THE OPPONENT OUT.

A prime example is Pokemon Stadium 1, which has at least TWO transitions where approaching the opponent is so dangerous that it's almost always doomed to failure, so the combatants wait it out.

Most recently, this resulted in Tyrant timing out X in game 5 at MLG.

I've also seen Toon Links deliberately pick PS1 with the intent to time out using the RANDOM stage transitions as an aid.
 

AMKalmar

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That's PS1, and I've always thought that PS1 was bad because of the walls. You basically remove from the match the time spent in the ground and fire transformations.

I'm talking about Delfino. If I don't know which transformation is coming next, does that hurt me, KO me, or help the opponent time me out?
 

Ghostbone

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Umm, I still don't get it......i could say that every stage randomly assists one player time the other player out because of where they spawn. And it could be argued it's your fault for being behind when the stage transforms. Also....this might sound strange, but doesn't PS1 cycle through every transformation before repeating any? Adjusting the timer so that every transformation appears the same amount could help...might be too drastic a change.
 

SuSa

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That's positional advantage, which is also what I was arguing over with transformations.

All the random spawns would do is ban any stage that isn't symmetrical (say bye bye to Rainbow Cruise) as on symmetrical stages it doesn't matter as it's mirrored.
 
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That's PS1, and I've always thought that PS1 was bad because of the walls. You basically remove from the match the time spent in the ground and fire transformations.

I'm talking about Delfino. If I don't know which transformation is coming next, does that hurt me, KO me, or help the opponent time me out?
Because several of Delfino's transformations are similarly bad for approaching.

@Raz: are all BBR admissions finished?

So... we have a logical criteria that lets us get to, really, not even the japanese ruleset, but even less than that. So... what now? How do we refute/reject this criteria?
 

SuSa

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Current stage list for all wondering:

Battlefield
Lylat Cruise*
Final Destination
Jungle Japes*

Those with a * are arguable. If Lylat's tilt is random, it's gone.
Funny how Japes is still legal, even after all this BS... hahahahaha...

Yep. Not seeing this flying.

EDIT:

If you want to know my ACTUAL opinion on a stage list (not listening to any objective criteria or jack ****) it's the following:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)


Yep. 5 stages. Arguably the Japanese stagelist - PS1. I'm that conservative. So INB4 liberal bias whenever I argue for 22 stage list striking and all that jazz.

 
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Lylat is gone for sure. Japes is not really arguable, it's in.

All things considered though, even though we've tried to use a reasonable (?), objective criteria to figure this **** out, we came out with a stagelist that has 3 stages. What the hell went wrong?
 

SuSa

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We didn't draw a line for "What is too much".

Also our win criteria is subjective, I don't see the harm of placing one in priority of another. Both are legit. wins, but don't we actually favor conflict - not timing out? Timing out was a SIDE EFFECT of keeping tournaments running on time.... so honestly, favoring one kind of already happens (look at why LGL's have been instated by many TO's...)

But that's getting practical/sensible/subjective.

So yeah. What went wrong, is criteria is a ***** to create without some flaw that pushes it into the extremes.
 

Veel

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Fun reading, as always (it would be appreciated if when you arrive at new points from off-boards discussion, you give a synopsis for the rest of us.) Is this thought experiment officially abandoned?
 

Jack Kieser

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What the hell went wrong?
Nothing went wrong, BPC. SuSa indeed made objective ban criteria, something that was discrete, concise, and enforceable. The problem was that it was simply the wrong criteria. Well, I mean, "wrong", if you think (like most people do) that chopping out 90% of the stage list is not a measured response.

Like I said earlier, if anything, this proves just how intertwined PvP and PvS is in Brawl. This shows exactly how much the game requires you to need to develop skills that assist in interacting with the stage.
 

Ghostbone

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That's positional advantage, which is also what I was arguing over with transformations.

All the random spawns would do is ban any stage that isn't symmetrical (say bye bye to Rainbow Cruise) as on symmetrical stages it doesn't matter as it's mirrored.
No stage is symmetrical, the walls on separate sides of a stage act differently for Ness and Lucas's recovery, and I'm willing to bet there are other little things as well. Yay for stageless brawl :urg:

Edit: And I'm sure some people find it easier to do things one way as apposed to the other. eg. I find it easier to Instant Illusion OoS with Falco to the left, I always stuff up and roll to the right.
There's other stuff as well I'm more comfortable doing one way as opposed to the other.
 
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Nothing went wrong, BPC. SuSa indeed made objective ban criteria, something that was discrete, concise, and enforceable. The problem was that it was simply the wrong criteria. Well, I mean, "wrong", if you think (like most people do) that chopping out 90% of the stage list is not a measured response.

Like I said earlier, if anything, this proves just how intertwined PvP and PvS is in Brawl. This shows exactly how much the game requires you to need to develop skills that assist in interacting with the stage.
Actually, you can't really work with that. If we agree with the premise, and the logic leading up the to the conclusion, then we must admit that the conclusion is correct. However, it obviously isn't. So where's the problem? Is the premise wrong? If so, how?
 

Raziek

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Because the premise WAS wrong, in that you are trying to systematically remove ALL random aspects, no matter how MINOR AND IRRELEVANT they were, from an inherently random game.
 

Jack Kieser

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Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, inarticulately. SuSa's methodology was spot on and accurate, but the premise he used to base that methodology was faulty. You're totally correct about the "if the conclusions are false, the premise must be false" thing, too.
 
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