Differences between Tatsu's and when to use? (Ken)

[Knee Against the World]

I should preference that this is specifically a question for Ken, though I don't know if the two have identical Tatsu's.

Hey, guys. Basically just what the title is asking. Does anyone have a good idea as to what the differences between the 4 different Tatsu's are? (side-b, side-b(hold), command input, command input(hold))

I feel like sometimes I'm in a great advantage state when I land the move and sometimes very negative after the move ends. Can anyone elaborate on this move for me please?

 

[Shieldlesscap]

Input Tatsu is just stronger in terms of damage, and how long you hold the button, the more hits you have, going up to 4.

There's 3 versions of Tatsu each, being:
- Tap/Negative Edge (One hit)
- Hold for only a few frames (2 hits I think)
- Hold for any longer than that (4 hits)

 

[Knee Against the World]

There's 3 versions of Tatsu each, being:
- Tap/Negative Edge (One hit)
- Hold for only a few frames (2 hits I think)
- Hold for any longer than that (4 hits)

Hmm, are you sure about this? Tap and negative edge both still get me 2 hits.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

Hmm, are you sure about this? Tap and negative edge both still get me 2 hits.

Ok, actually I just realized I'm a dumbass. As I was typing that I was thinking "wait why is there a gap between 2 and 4" and then never got around to correcting myself.

Anyway, it's actually:

Tap/NE = 2 hits
Short tatsu = 3 hits
Hold = 4 hits

Which actually makes sense.

 

[redcometchar]

If you distinguish between true tatsu and side b aren't there six variations?

I cant think of a situation other than recovery where you would want to do a side b instead of an input tatsu.

Speaking of recovery air tatsu is different from ground tatsu so doesnt that make 12 versions?

 

[Knee Against the World]

If you distinguish between true tatsu and side b aren't there six variations?

I cant think of a situation other than recovery where you would want to do a side b instead of an input tatsu.

Speaking of recovery air tatsu is different from ground tatsu so doesnt that make 12 versions?

Yea, see, that's kinda what I was thinking. So many different versions and I'm not entirely sure when to use which. I'm looking for something like, "When you're close to your opponent and you're comboing with light down tilt, using X tatsu will end with you in advantage state where you can mixup between another grab or light down tilts again".

Something like that, you know? I feel like when I land tatsu sometimes, I'm the one in a disadvantageous position.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

If you distinguish between true tatsu and side b aren't there six variations?

I cant think of a situation other than recovery where you would want to do a side b instead of an input tatsu.

Speaking of recovery air tatsu is different from ground tatsu so doesnt that make 12 versions?

Sort of?

There technically 12 different variants of each special except Focus, but the differences between them tend to be consistent:
- Input versions do more damage/knockback
- Heavy versions have longer duration and are more effective
- Light Aerial versions of Side B and Up B have increased travel distance
- Idk medium aerial
- Heavy Aerials tend to be the same distance

However, what that all amounts to tends to be:
- Always use heavy Tatsu unless you’re afraid they’ll be able to escape in between hits
- Always use input Tatsu unless you’re offstage or worried that you’ll accidentally trigger negative edge and do light Tatsu (which will make you drop some combos)

 

[redcometchar]

Sort of?
There technically 12 different variants of each special except Focus, but the differences between them tend to be consistent:
- Input versions do more damage/knockback
- Heavy versions have longer duration and are more effective
- Light Aerial versions of Side B and Up B have increased travel distance
- Idk medium aerial
- Heavy Aerials tend to be the same distance

That does not seem right to me. The heavy side b and up b have the furthest travel distance, not the light versions right? And what do you mean by "more effective". I think that light tatsu is way more effective in combos than heavy tatsu for ken, because ken can combo jab after it. Also true dp has less landing lag. Additionally, Ken's medium dp kills earlier than heavy dp in certain senarios.

Yea, see, that's kinda what I was thinking. So many different versions and I'm not entirely sure when to use which. I'm looking for something like, "When you're close to your opponent and you're comboing with light down tilt, using X tatsu will end with you in advantage state where you can mixup between another grab or light down tilts again".

Something like that, you know? I feel like when I land tatsu sometimes, I'm the one in a disadvantageous position.

well man it is not clear what should be used when, ken and ryu are particularly complex and we certainly dont know everything about them. I think that for the most part, input specials are always better than the non input specials outside of out of shield up b and recovering, so that narrows it down a little. I can write what i understand as of now if that helps.

Fireball
Light fireball travels slower than heavy fireball, so if you need to shield an aproach or create offensive pressure than use light fireball. Correspondingly Heavy fireball gives the opponent less time to react so its a better poke. There are also some combos where you need to do heavy fireball for the fireball to connect in time, such as Hard down tilt -> fireball at around 60. Medium fireball is your inbetween option, but honestly its difficulty doesnt justify special treatment for it. (by difficulty i mean that medium options are a 2 frame window)

Dragon punch (Ryu)
At low % heavy dragon punch leaves you minus on hit, and you can be punished. As a result you should go for light dp at low percent. Also at mid percent you can sometimes get a good juggle situation if you use light dp, and if you are looking to anti air with dp, light dp is the hardest one to punish unless you are under a platform. Medium dp has one fantastic use. If you use medium dp under a battlefield level platform, you just barely land on the platform after the dp, giving you enough time for a true combo at some percents. Heavy dp is your highest damage option and the one that kills earliest.

Dragon punch (Ken)
Ken's light dp has all the benefits of ryu's light dp. Ken's Medium dp has one additional use, It can kill at absurdly low percentages. https://twitter.com/OursOuzbek/status/1076498460730376192
Heavy dp feels like it has a bigger hitbox, but i cant confirm this for sure. It has the strongest late hit though, so its the best version for comboing from up air at later percents. Otherwise the same as Ryu's dp

Hurricane Kick (Ryu)
Honestly just use this to recover. Use the light version if you are afraid they will punish your side b off stage, and use the heavy version when you need the distance. Its techincally the best option for hard dtilt and other tilt combos at low percent (make sure to do the light version so you arent punished), but red fireball is just as good in practice and is more reliable imo. It technically has trample so you can use it to punish projectiles and annoying spacing moves but it just doesnt give much reward.

Hurricane Kick (Ken)
Wow Ken's side b is so much better. the light version true combos into jab and dtilt at around 34%, the aerial version will lead into grab, the light version is not a horrible crossup option and the hard version is not minus on hit. Wow i love this move. The medium version has some potential for followups at percents where the light version doesnt work in my opinion, but i dont have any specifics. Great move really. Use the heavy version below 10 percent, and the light version after.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

To clarify, when I said light aerial versions, I meant compared to their grounded variants, not the heavy ones. When I said more effective I just meant I didn't know but they were better to use. That said, I'll admit it was incorrect for Shoryu. That said, I think Light Tatsu after medium DTilt doesn't actually connect, so at least for that, Heavy Tatsu is your best bet. I'm guessing if you cancel something into it from closer, then Light Tatsu becomes better.

I didn't know about Medium Shoryu, but I think that's actually sick. You wouldn't happen to know any consistent setups for medium specials or what sets them off, would you?

 

[redcometchar]

The guys on the ken/ryu discord know way more about medium shoryu than me, Ask there if you want more details about that.