Diddy's tier placement and overall viability

[Diddy Kong]

A discussion about Diddy Kong in Ultimate and his over viability/ tier placement.

So far we can easily state that Diddy in Ultimate is his least impressive performance in Smash till date. Thank GOD for the amazing set of buffs he's gotten however, as he was close to frustrating to play before them.

Tweek has been running with the character for some time, with some highs and lows. Other players also play Diddy but he's a rather underutilized fighter, like in the other Smash games. He's got good matchups against many Top Tiers as Palutena, Aegis, Lucina (?), Min-Min (?), ZSS (?) and does reasonable well or goes even against Fox, Mario, Cloud, ROB and Roy. Loses big time to Steve, Pac Man and Samus however.

I do think Diddy is a solid High Tier, used to think he's a lower Top Tier but am not too sure anymore. Anyone here got their takes on Diddy? What his matchups are like nowadays? And his tier placement?

 

[Ridley_Prime]

What about Kazuya? Had been practicing that matchup religiously over time with how much there is to learn in dealing with his moves and escaping his combos, and would like to think Diddy does well against him too, but not sure how effective d-tilt and such is at walling him out. I noticed command grabs seem to be good against him as a mixup burst option though due to his speed, so Monkey Flip probably gives him hell at least. Regardless, Kazuya makes you desensitized to not only every other brawler type character, but Luigi's death combos as well. Wouldn't call Kazuya broken though, just very volatile, but him and Steve have both been causing major upsets, because no matter how good you get at how you DI out of Kazuya combos, it’s still pretty much a 50/50. That said, it helps to not panic when stunned by Electric Wind God Fist (it can also push you back if you’re shielding, making it safe on hit, and if shielding at ledge you’ll be pushed off which allows for a Kazuya edgeguard, but if still on stage and you maintain your composure when pushed back while shielding EWGF, can quickly return to neutral), sent into crumple state from a grounded side B or uncrouching attack, or tripped by that one kick (the down angle back tilt) and just try to DI or otherwise escape accordingly; not to mention playing an extra safe neutral or keeping him off stage when his rage ability activates for awhile after 100%.

And yeah, would have to say Diddy is still a decent high tier. A fun to fight one too with how honest he is compared to other high or top tiers. Facing random online Diddy's taught me much in adapting when I was still new and learning with my namesake main. As far as the buffs Diddy got, which thank God indeed, would have to say his post-patch f-tilt is my favorite, with the increased duration and a late hit added, and its ability to set up tech chases & edgeguarding being improved, making the f-tilt a much satisfying neutral and advantage move like Ridley's or whathaveyou.

I know Diddy's not as great as he was in previous games, due to balancing getting better in part with all the high/top tier nerfs over time, but hope you're still having a good time with him and the game in general. While I've had more player growth in Ultimate at this point than any previous Smash combined, I can understand if it feels like "just another Smash game" for you when you've had your main since Brawl and is currently underutilized & underrepresented, but that's how it be with a lot of characters with how the roster became. Still happy to see what little results or representation my characters get though.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

A fun to fight one too with how honest he is compared to other high or top tiers

Gotta disagree here, I feel that his shield pressure and advantage are way too obnoxious. Not the best by any means, but very unfun for me. Most of his stuff has answers and is generally beaten by good movement, but as a player of very slow characters, it just feels like a slog to play against.

Overall I would describe Diddy as “looks like a top tier until you learn how to play against banana, where he then becomes high tier.” His crazy banana combos and high skill but hype set ups are really good when they do show up. However, all of them are taken away just by stealing banana. Read a banana pluck and now you got free damage, stage control, and a banana peel all because the Diddy decided to use the one thing that makes him worth playing IMO. His advantage without banana is actually quite lackluster, as his low combo damage output without it is a huge hinderance, and his woes with killing really start to show when you sit in shield at center stage while you have his banana. Generally Diddy needs to kill with a confirm or a raw move at ledge. But his confirms are universally known, and many are beaten by simply DI’ing away, where he then needs to over shoot his attack. Banana confirms I would say should rarely be seen, as the opponent should be throwing banana to a hard to reach place OR straight up abusing it. If they don’t have the banana, then it’s usually ok to just jump or shield, as he needs to manually Z-drop aerial as a read, or to monkey flip which has pretty small hitboxes and can be whiff punished on reaction.

Another issue is his rather annoying, but manageable shield pressure. He only has a few normals which are truly safe in shield against most characters, and characters with good OOS his pressure is actually quite bad. He basically relies in monkey flip as without it he really isn’t doing that much shield damage and his grabs aren’t all that threatening either. But since the opponent is basically always looking out for flip, they are probably just gonna jump away and it’s up to the Diddy to read when they will jump (which is quite easy to mix up). Conversely I find it quite easy to pressure a Diddy without banana (which should be often if you are countering him correctly). His low range and lack of truly amazing OOS really hurts him, as up smash is too small to reliably deal with any sort of disjoint.

Of course I have been making it sound as if it’s easy to steal banana, which it really isn’t. However, given that it’s so crucial to his game plan, even one banana stolen can easily snow ball into a win in the right circumstances. Hell, it’s possible to steal banana AS HE IS IN ENDLAG FROM PLUCKING IT, WHICH SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE.


Diddy’s strengths are obvious, and profound. I just feel that not enough people actually see his downsides.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Gotta disagree here, I feel that his shield pressure and advantage are way too obnoxious. Not the best by any means, but very unfun for me. Most of his stuff has answers and is generally beaten by good movement, but as a player of very slow characters, it just feels like a slog to play against.

Overall I would describe Diddy as “looks like a top tier until you learn how to play against banana, where he then becomes high tier.” His crazy banana combos and high skill but hype set ups are really good when they do show up. However, all of them are taken away just by stealing banana. Read a banana pluck and now you got free damage, stage control, and a banana peel all because the Diddy decided to use the one thing that makes him worth playing IMO. His advantage without banana is actually quite lackluster, as his low combo damage output without it is a huge hinderance, and his woes with killing really start to show when you sit in shield at center stage while you have his banana. Generally Diddy needs to kill with a confirm or a raw move at ledge. But his confirms are universally known, and many are beaten by simply DI’ing away, where he then needs to over shoot his attack. Banana confirms I would say should rarely be seen, as the opponent should be throwing banana to a hard to reach place OR straight up abusing it. If they don’t have the banana, then it’s usually ok to just jump or shield, as he needs to manually Z-drop aerial as a read, or to monkey flip which has pretty small hitboxes and can be whiff punished on reaction.

Another issue is his rather annoying, but manageable shield pressure. He only has a few normals which are truly safe in shield against most characters, and characters with good OOS his pressure is actually quite bad. He basically relies in monkey flip as without it he really isn’t doing that much shield damage and his grabs aren’t all that threatening either. But since the opponent is basically always looking out for flip, they are probably just gonna jump away and it’s up to the Diddy to read when they will jump (which is quite easy to mix up). Conversely I find it quite easy to pressure a Diddy without banana (which should be often if you are countering him correctly). His low range and lack of truly amazing OOS really hurts him, as up smash is too small to reliably deal with any sort of disjoint.

Of course I have been making it sound as if it’s easy to steal banana, which it really isn’t. However, given that it’s so crucial to his game plan, even one banana stolen can easily snow ball into a win in the right circumstances. Hell, it’s possible to steal banana AS HE IS IN ENDLAG FROM PLUCKING IT, WHICH SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE.


Diddy’s strengths are obvious, and profound. I just feel that not enough people actually see his downsides.

Diddy’s banana hasn’t given me that much trouble out of the ones I’ve fought, having known how you need to respect it when moving or landing. I see where you’re coming from though.

Since you brought up kill confirms, can his d-throw > bair at ledge (otherwise known as Hoo Ha) be DI’d like with other characters who have that? Am guessing so, but never knew for sure.

I found that Diddy’s Peanut Popgun you want to jump over most often rather than shield it since if you get in the habit of doing so or are conditioned to, he’ll punish with Monkey Flip. Definitely want to shield Rocket Barrel though (which he seems to most often use horizontally) if you're not ready to counter attack him. I don’t recall his shield pressure otherwise, but will take your word on it. Can see the safe normals he has being annoying for shield pressure.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Diddy’s banana hasn’t given me that much trouble out of the ones I’ve fought, having known how you need to respect it when moving or landing. I see where you’re coming from though.

My struggle initially came from this move as I was a player who used to struggle with shield pressure a lot so I had to force myself to learn how to fight it.

Since you brought up kill confirms, can his d-throw > bair at ledge (otherwise known as Hoo Ha) be DI’d like with other characters who have that? Am guessing so, but never knew for sure.

Yes, but big bodies will still be hit. His other hoo ha in up throw up air is iirc always true at its % windows, you just have to read the DI.

I found that Diddy’s Peanut Popgun you want to jump over most often rather than shield it since if you get in the habit of doing so or are conditioned to, he’ll punish with Monkey Flip. Definitely want to shield Rocket Barrel though (which he seems to most often use horizontally) if you're not ready to counter attack him. I don’t recall his shield pressure otherwise, but will take your word on it. Can see the safe normals he has being annoying for shield pressure.

Definately, and I feel that dealing with popgun is the one thing I still have to learn about with Diddy, as only like 2 Diddy’s I have ever fought used it correctly, and I haven’t really had the experience to counter it. Down tilt is probably the most annoying move he has, but not because it’s really safe or anything, stats wise it’s actually decently punishable. Problem is that you can’t ever react to it, so good luck punishing it most of the time.