Diddy Observations (and how Villager wrecks Diddy)

[fractalWizard]

Hello everyone! I was playing around testing the #3 down-b for diddy, and I'm sharing what I found here.

Diddy Kong Down-b (1 and 3) observations:

1. Only one banana. If a Villager pockets the banana, you cannot summon another one until it is used or the Villager dies.
2. If they hit a target before landing, they do damage with no special effect (somewhere between 2 and 10 percent?)
   
   
3. 1: Normal Trip banana, doesnt seem to do damage?
4. 3: Explosive banana, explodes the target that touches it upwards some, doing somewhere between 2 and 8 percent damage and okay knock-up. Doesn't seem to kill even at 150%, but need more testing.

Now the Villager being able to stop both the banana from being summoned and catch peanuts seems pretty useful against Diddy.

The Explosive Banana seems more useful due to there being a chance to combo them as they're stunned until they hit the ground, depending on how damaged they are and how far they're knocked up.

 

[Praxis]

Bananas don't seem that important in a game without glide tossing...

 

[guedes the brawler]

Bananas don't seem that important in a game without glide tossing...

Bananas are good even without it, WTH bro?

 

[Praxis]

Bananas are good even without it, WTH bro?

With only one naner and without glide tossing? I mean, they're not bad, but you don't have the same shield options you had in Brawl, and now it's really easy to lose control of your naner and might not be worth the risk to get it back.

 

[Krynxe]

People are definitely going to have to find more creative ways to use bananas. It will give Diddy players an entirely different perspective on their usefulness, since banana setups won't be able to be as forced and straightforward as they were in brawl.

 

[guedes the brawler]

With only one naner and without glide tossing? I mean, they're not bad, but you don't have the same shield options you had in Brawl, and now it's really easy to lose control of your naner and might not be worth the risk to get it back.

i played without GT and with a single banana in brawl and it was still good.

this might make for a nerfed diddy, but the game as a whole benefits from this nerf.

 

[Jigglymaster]

You forgot to mention the fact that they disappear after somebody slips on it or gets hit by it. Meaning you have to pull out a new banana every single time.

 

[Praxis]

i played without GT and with a single banana in brawl and it was still good.

this might make for a nerfed diddy, but the game as a whole benefits from this nerf.

"I played without being able to combo in Melee and it was still good. Not having combos benefits Brawl as a whole."


If you played Diddy without using GT or his second banana, you missed out on half his game and didn't have very good offline tournament results.

 

[guedes the brawler]

"I played without being able to combo in Melee and it was still good. Not having combos benefits Brawl as a whole."


If you played Diddy without using GT or his second banana, you missed out on half his game and didn't have very good offline tournament results.

you don't get it. and your example is horrible, too.

combos weren't OP in Melee, besides chaingrabbing which is always broken, and everyone on the cast was able to do combos (well... some of the mighty glaciers might not combo much, i dunno). 2 bananas with GT was very broken, and was locked to a single character (situational to some of the cast, though).

One banana, with out glide tossing is still good, and considerably less broken. diddy is still good, not OP, not contribuiting to horrible balance. good for the game. it's not like diddy doesn't have other specials and normals to work with, and it's not like mos tof those aren't really solid to begin with.

and i arrived too late to the scene to perform well at tournaments, especially the brazilian ones, hence why i didn't learn 2 bananas (i know GT, prefer not to use it cause i don't need it)

 

[Krynxe]

I don't want to see things get heated here, haha

Honestly, diddy without gt and 1 banana in brawl is still a pretty solid character and would only lose (matchup wise) to the high/top tiers. Since smash 4 is shaping up to be a more balanced game in general, Diddy could lie anywhere on the spectrum. It's kind of unfair to say something like "diddy is bad with one banana and no gt" because bad is a relative term, and we have no idea how smash 4 diddy will play out yet. It's like saying brawl falco is bad because he doesn't have melee shine that's jump cancellable, people might have thought that at first but then we learned about all the tools that brawl falco has that change his playstyle and still make him good

^ this is a general statement and isn't quoting or directed at anyone in particular

 

[Praxis]

you don't get it. and your example is horrible, too.

combos weren't OP in Melee, besides chaingrabbing which is always broken, and everyone on the cast was able to do combos (well... some of the mighty glaciers might not combo much, i dunno). 2 bananas with GT was very broken, and was locked to a single character (situational to some of the cast, though).

One banana, with out glide tossing is still good, and considerably less broken. diddy is still good, not OP, not contribuiting to horrible balance. good for the game. it's not like diddy doesn't have other specials and normals to work with, and it's not like mos tof those aren't really solid to begin with.

and i arrived too late to the scene to perform well at tournaments, especially the brazilian ones, hence why i didn't learn 2 bananas (i know GT, prefer not to use it cause i don't need it)

You keep using the words "broken" and "OP". I don't think these words mean what you think they mean. He was #4 in the game. Without his best techniques he's a middle of the pack character, and that would have made him unviable in Brawl.

Also, as a Peach main in Brawl (Diddy in PM), I used GT as my primary motion technique. "Locked to a single character" my heeled foot.



@ Krynxe , I'll agree it's quite possible he's been buffed in other ways. His recovery looks insane.

 

[Krynxe]

yeah, his recovery is mad good for sure. I haven't seen people really explore forward-b yet either.

 

[guedes the brawler]

You keep using the words "broken" and "OP". I don't think these words mean what you think they mean. He was #4 in the game. Without his best techniques he's a middle of the pack character, and that would have made him unviable in Brawl.

Also, as a Peach main in Brawl (Diddy in PM), I used GT as my primary motion technique. "Locked to a single character" my heeled foot.



@ Krynxe , I'll agree it's quite possible he's been buffed in other ways. His recovery looks insane.

you see? when the tech single-handily makes a change like this in brawl, of course there is something wrong with it.

what's locked to diddy is GT with 2 bananas, but you might mess up and the opponent might get the two bananas to GT with (if the character can do it). that's all i meant.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't want to see things get heated here, haha

Honestly, diddy without gt and 1 banana in brawl is still a pretty solid character and would only lose (matchup wise) to the high/top tiers. Since smash 4 is shaping up to be a more balanced game in general, Diddy could lie anywhere on the spectrum. It's kind of unfair to say something like "diddy is bad with one banana and no gt" because bad is a relative term, and we have no idea how smash 4 diddy will play out yet. It's like saying brawl falco is bad because he doesn't have melee shine that's jump cancellable, people might have thought that at first but then we learned about all the tools that brawl falco has that change his playstyle and still make him good

^ this is a general statement and isn't quoting or directed at anyone in particular

Or that G&W is bad because his KO power is nerfed. He still has the TURTLE and disjoints, plus his
bucket will actually be usable outside momentum cancelling since strong projectiles fill it instantly.

I know, I know, irrelevant...

 

[Praxis]

Or that G&W is bad because his KO power is nerfed. He still has the TURTLE and disjoints, plus his
bucket will actually be usable outside momentum cancelling since strong projectiles fill it instantly.

I know, I know, irrelevant...

G&W was terrible in Brawl, people just didn't know it. I developed so much stuff against him. He has no ATs and is very limited and mostly got by because people didn't understand his hitboxes or "hidden" startup because of his jerky animations.

I made this video about how the Turtle is a terrible move back in the day and beat pretty much every notable G&W in the country at one point. G&W is a bad, limited character, that did well in early metagame but suddenly had no ability to compete at the top level when people figured out his stuff. He hits like a tank, has big disjoints...but has terrible OOS options and long lag times. When you figured out the disjoints and figured out how to whack his shield with safe moves you could dance around him all day and never get hit. When you figure out that playing a 100% safe game against G&W means he can never get a kill on you (he has no setups whatsoever), you can just space him out all day.

Metaknight can beat G&W using mostly dtilt and ftilt because G&W has no approach through it. Simple example: UTD Zac, the (at the time, pre-Vinnie) best G&W in the world, beat Tyrant (the best Metaknight on the west coast) in tournament. His very next match, he lost to Havok's Metaknight, because Havok knew to not go for reads and just walk away and ftilt. Video here.

G&W is a terrible character in Brawl, and with nerfed KO power, is probably going to be even worse. I feel pretty strongly on this one.

you see? when the tech single-handily makes a change like this in brawl, of course there is something wrong with it.

what's locked to diddy is GT with 2 bananas, but you might mess up and the opponent might get the two bananas to GT with (if the character can do it). that's all i meant.

I...what? You're talking nonsense.

Without glide tossing, Diddy would be mid tier and Peach would be low tier. It's a completely necessary technique that makes the characters viable and adds a lot of interesting things to the game. Diddy is completely unable to compete with good characters without glide tossing.

Cling to your "I didn't use GT because I didn't need it" elitism while everyone else uses the tools at their disposal.

 

[guedes the brawler]

I...what? You're talking nonsense.

Without glide tossing, Diddy would be mid tier and Peach would be low tier. It's a completely necessary technique that makes the characters viable and adds a lot of interesting things to the game. Diddy is completely unable to compete with good characters without glide tossing.

Cling to your "I didn't use GT because I didn't need it" elitism while everyone else uses the tools at their disposal.

you are thinking about brawl, though.

all i'm saying is that a single banana is still good enough for smash 4 diddy. sure, glide tossing and the second banan could better his game; but he'd end up being too good in a somewhat unfair and unintended way. a single banana makes for a more balanced Diddy in a game where everyone wasn't intended to be broken (AKA why 2 nanas + gt is okay in PM)

and it's not elitism. it's pure laziness, really. i cna do it, it's super easy, i just don't feel compelled to use it.

 

[meleebrawler]

Now the Villager being able to stop both the banana from being summoned and catch peanuts seems pretty useful against Diddy.

To lock down Diddy's bananas, Villager would have to sacrifice pocket in the face of peanuts.
And if the enemy Villager is keen on picking up bananas, either guard them well or use them as a lure.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Diddy is pretty bad now. His only redeeming factor about him was his bannana spam or using the bananas great thanks to being able to use two and the bannas lasting a very long time.

Without bananas and diddy is low mid tier at best in brawl. With bannas he becomes one of the best characters thanks to his bannanas.

Seeing as sakurai took 1 banna away, removed item gliding and made bannas dissapier after slipping is just a fat nerf to to the poor monkey. The fact that villager eats his only good thing about him is just sad and gonna be a terrible match up for diddy.

Unless sakurai buffed all of diddy others moves bit I've seen cottage and diddy users have said he's about the same as brawl and that's not good. If he got a banana nerf I'd assume sakurai to give him better options in his other moves.

 

[meleebrawler]

Diddy is pretty bad now. His only redeeming factor about him was his bannana spam or using the bananas great thanks to being able to use two and the bannas lasting a very long time.

Without bananas and diddy is low mid tier at best in brawl. With bannas he becomes one of the best characters thanks to his bannanas.

Seeing as sakurai took 1 banna away, removed item gliding and made bannas dissapier after slipping is just a fat nerf to to the poor monkey. The fact that villager eats his only good thing about him is just sad and gonna be a terrible match up for diddy.

Unless sakurai buffed all of diddy others moves bit I've seen cottage and diddy users have said he's about the same as brawl and that's not good. If he got a banana nerf I'd assume sakurai to give him better options in his other moves.

Did you not see his insane reach when he was revealed? (Okay, maybe it's not that insane, but
his limbs stretch quite a bit.)

 

[Dragoomba]

2 bananas with GT was very broken, and was locked to a single character (situational to some of the cast, though).

"Specific tech for one character that makes him interesting is bad"

I guess Villager is broken because he's the only character in the cast that can store projectiles. Why can't everyone do that?

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[guedes the brawler]

"Specific tech for one character that makes him interesting is bad"

I guess Villager is broken because he's the only character in the cast that can store projectiles. Why can't everyone do that?

You have no idea what you're talking about.

storing projectiles isn't broken by any means, unlike the combos 2 banans and GT allow diddy to do.

 

[DFEAR]

the aspergers in this thread wooow.

You guys need to understand basic conditioning before touching Diddy. Plus, matchups will be figured out relax. If there were Diddy counters, which there will be, just man up and beat the odds by being the better player smh. We dnt have spacie vs pika syndrome...yet

 

[Jigglymaster]

the autism in this thread wooow.

You guys need to understand basic conditioning before touching Diddy. Plus, matchups will be figured out relax. If there were Diddy counters, which there will be, just man up and beat the odds by being the better player smh. We dnt have spacie vs pika syndrome...yet

I understand the points that you're getting at with trying to figure all this stuff out so early but the first sentence was not needed and its rather offensive.

 

[DFEAR]

no worries. I edited it to something more specific and less offensive. My apologies jiggly

 

[Empty Number]

no worries. I edited it to something more specific and less offensive. My apologies jiggly

Nope. Still offensive. Just be mature and remove it.

 

[Count]

This thread gave me cancer.

 

[Kantrip]

I contracted HIVs from this thread.

 

[Player-1]

I think people need to stay away from this thread with all these diseases going around ...

 

[DFEAR]

we as TRUE Diddy mains must fight establishment with our powers. Its outrageous we are restricted in our communication. These warning will end

 

[Player-3]

u guys are ******** lol

 

[TastyCarcass]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxFwte0QU4M&t=20s
This works with Diddy. You just don't seem to be able to do it OoS but it's still going to be an awesome wiff punish

 

[Scala]

G&W was terrible in Brawl, people just didn't know it. I developed so much stuff against him. He has no ATs and is very limited and mostly got by because people didn't understand his hitboxes or "hidden" startup because of his jerky animations.

I made this video about how the Turtle is a terrible move back in the day and beat pretty much every notable G&W in the country at one point. G&W is a bad, limited character, that did well in early metagame but suddenly had no ability to compete at the top level when people figured out his stuff. He hits like a tank, has big disjoints...but has terrible OOS options and long lag times. When you figured out the disjoints and figured out how to whack his shield with safe moves you could dance around him all day and never get hit. When you figure out that playing a 100% safe game against G&W means he can never get a kill on you (he has no setups whatsoever), you can just space him out all day.

Metaknight can beat G&W using mostly dtilt and ftilt because G&W has no approach through it. Simple example: UTD Zac, the (at the time, pre-Vinnie) best G&W in the world, beat Tyrant (the best Metaknight on the west coast) in tournament. His very next match, he lost to Havok's Metaknight, because Havok knew to not go for reads and just walk away and ftilt. Video here.

G&W is a terrible character in Brawl, and with nerfed KO power, is probably going to be even worse. I feel pretty strongly on this one.

G&W's main weakness in brawl was that you can smash di out of turtle. You can't do that in Smash 4 which makes turtle a very effective approach option now

 

[1FC0]

What is a Diddy main? A miserable pile of naners!

Oh wait you guys get only one naner now lolololololololl. I think it would be HILARIOUS if R.O.B. got 2 Gyro's to pelt his opposition with!

 

[Orion*]

banana setups won't be able to be as forced and straightforward as they were in brawl.

I disagree.

There was legit a harder learning curve to playing diddy at top level in brawl. You literally would not place in tournaments unless you understood how and where you place your bananas, how to do the combos between the two, move while keeping both as active hitboxes (glide tossing and dribbling), ect.

Bananas are still strong, but are not necessarily the focus of his character in the current meta.

 

[internetmovieguy]

TL;DR: Villager's pocket has a time limit, anything put in it must be taken out or used within a minute.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I disagree.

There was legit a harder learning curve to playing diddy at top level in brawl. You literally would not place in tournaments unless you understood how and where you place your bananas, how to do the combos between the two, move while keeping both as active hitboxes (glide tossing and dribbling), ect.

Bananas are still strong, but are not necessarily the focus of his character in the current meta.

Not to mention theres a lot less characters that can gimp him now, he's less gimpable overall now. In Brawl if you picked up a day 1 Diddy at a tournament they'd get gimped by MK faster than Little mac does in this game.

 

[Orion*]

I agree although the little mac reference is a little bit extreme imo.... LMAO
that character is so free to gimp, but then again i play sheik so it's like w.e.

 

[Krynxe]

I disagree.

There was legit a harder learning curve to playing diddy at top level in brawl. You literally would not place in tournaments unless you understood how and where you place your bananas, how to do the combos between the two, move while keeping both as active hitboxes (glide tossing and dribbling), ect.

Bananas are still strong, but are not necessarily the focus of his character in the current meta.

I never said anything about the difficulty or learning curve behind using bananas in brawl. Diddy Kong using bananas effectively in Brawl could create a game that your opponent had to play around. As an experienced Diddy player, you could impose this obstacle on your opponent constantly. By straightforward, I do not mean "simple", I mean that the practical and viable application of bananas in Brawl are much more apparent. That is true mostly because they are simply that good in Brawl, such that everyone knew that they were amazing and had great potential, but mastering those techniques are no easy endeavor like you say.

Bananas simply aren't the highlight of Diddy's game any more, but they're still useful and important to his success

 

[Dissent]

Not sure where this thread is at anymore, but I beat Murdabito's Villager both sets of Grand Finals (3-1 and 3-1) and I have to say Villager doesn't have much on us. We outcamp and outmaneuver Villager with banana in hand popgun spam or just jumping above him and sideB'ing all day. I timed him out two of the games. Pull banana safely, use only when very positive it'll disappear/hit before being pocketed, pop gun all day and punish them when they come out from behind their tree. Also, this is your best friend in this matchup if you can consistently perform it.

 

[Orion*]

I mean that the practical and viable application of bananas in Brawl are much more apparent.

Fair enough, this part I disagree with because it took diddys meta years to get to the point where it was an ABC wall. It wasn't like brawl started and we new how to play the character. The followups were developed early game by ninjalink in 08, and over the course of like 2 years when ADHD peaked he created a flow chart with the classic one banana in front one banana in hand peanut gun wall. There was no obvious choices or guide to help us on the way, as he was an entirely new and unique character to the smash series.