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Did the new shield mechanics with 1.1.1 benefit King Dedede?

A Rogue Cop

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Does the added shield stun make anything more viable for him? Can you keep up shield pressure by spamming d-tilt or is that still too slow?

Or do the engine changes hurt his defensive options more than they benefit his offense?
 

williamsga555

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I'm not fully certain what I think of it yet.

On one hand, breaking through projectile walls is going to be even worse than before.
On the other hand, our spacing tools get a bit safer (f tilt obviously benefits a lot, and I'm hoping nair gets a big benefit as well).

I'm throwing out an early prediction that not a whole lot is going to really change from it, unfortunately. Those that camped us will still camp us, those we could wall out still get walled out. But I could be wrong! Not had the chance to test much yet.
 

SalsaSavant

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I haven't tested, but I think the way it shifts the meta towards more offense could be a good thing for us. People will play more aggressively, so our defense/punish focus can benefit from that.

However, the fact that shields aren't as good can put a little more pressure on us to not make many mistakes....sometimes, when things aren't going my way, I'll just shield instead of punishing. Now, that isn't as viable...
 
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I feel it'll be good for us in the long run. Nothing game changing, but any little bit helps.

I'm mainly thinking about Ftilt. This may now be a move that is more often than not safe on shield. That would be amaaazing.

And the thing that makes me not worry about getting camped any harder than we already do is perfect shield is still a thing.

So I definitely feel we got a decent indirect buff that will be helping from the back scenes.
 

williamsga555

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Was thinking similarly about f tilt. Also bair should be that much nicer as well, at least when auto cancelled.
 

Soul Train

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For D3, the most noteworthy aspect of this patch was Luigi's dthrow nerf. It stifles much of the terror of being grabbed, and thus makes shielding safer. Personally I don't see how the shieldstun changes will affect much - it's a double-edged sword. We MIGHT be safer with Ftilts, but rushdown will be even worse. I dislike.

For the record, Bair was already safe(ish) on block. You can jump again before touching ground after a shorthop Bair and stay safe/punish any dash grab attempts.
 
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shrooby

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I'm still doing testing, but here's some food for thought.

Previously, ftilt wasn't safe on shield against Fox. Fox could punish DDD if he shielded a well-spaced ftilt.
What happens now is, well, Fox isn't guaranteed the punish...exactly.
Basically, there's a few things Fox can do in this situation to actually punish DDD:
dash grab
dash attack (maybe this can be buffered so it still hits idk)

With those few extra frames...DDD now has an answer to each of those. Versus before where Fox got a free punish off it.
If he dash grabs, dtilt will come out first and beat it.
DDD can now shield in time to avoid the dash attack hit. Free shield grab.
It becomes a guessing game at this point, but the base of it is that it creates a situation where DDD is not automatically put at disadvantage when someone shields even well-spaced ftilts.

I used Fox just 'cause, but you can imagine that, well, if it's a character slower than Fox...

Maybeeeeeee...




(Note that ftilt is spaced very well in these testings.)
 
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Now that I think about it though, rushdowners and characters with a lot of multihits in general are going to be miserable.

Yoshi and Pikachu are gonna be nightmares.
 
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dreamastermind

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I did about a 100 games last night. Broke 5 shields, 1 that I uploaded to my channel. Fast Fall Neutral Air seems safer too, something I use to get punished on a lot. But I'll have to test more. Nothing seemed too significant to be honest, but the patch just happened so we'll have to test more.
 
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Soul Train

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Now that I think about it though, rushdowners and characters with a lot of multihits in general are going to be miserable.

Yoshi and Pikachu are gonna be nightmares.
You're exactly right, Jimmy. Pika's my secondary - and after a ton of testing today the rat is definitely better post-patch. Sheik's always had ultra-safe aerials, so no big difference there. Before, Pika's aerials were semi-safe - definitely punishable on shield with matchup knowledge and good reactions. But now, Pika's wayy safer. Fair alone is way better. Pika can SH Uair on shield, fastfall behind you and grab while you're still in shieldstun. hehe.

Yoshi - oh gawd. Went against a friend of mine who mains him, it was a nightmare. Yoshi was ALREADY 95% safe on shield, now his Fair is entirely safe, Egg throw stuns you longer, and even worse his Dair BS is almost unpunishable. ughh I need some higher level advice on this matchup.

Overall. Shields are nerfed, so grabs are nerfed, meaning offense/attacks are buffed. Smash 4 will become more fun to watch (more attacking + more perfect shields!), spacing will now become even more critical, and this game will really reward those with good movement. Everyone practice those pivots, dash pivots, foxtrots, etc. In application, the real effect of this patch is to buff the mobile/smaller non-Sheik characters (pika, fox, yoshi, kirby?). Frankly I'll love anything other than a boring single character (Diddy/Sheik) tier dictatorship. I'll take it.
 
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randomguy1235

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You're exactly right, Jimmy. Pika's my secondary - and after a ton of testing today the rat is definitely better post-patch. Sheik's always had ultra-safe aerials, so no big difference there. Before, Pika's aerials were semi-safe - definitely punishable on shield with matchup knowledge and good reactions. But now, Pika's wayy safer. Fair alone is way better. Pika can SH Uair on shield, fastfall behind you and grab while you're still in shieldstun. hehe.

Yoshi - oh gawd. Went against a friend of mine who mains him, it was a nightmare. Yoshi was ALREADY 95% safe on shield, now his Fair is entirely safe, Egg throw stuns you longer, and even worse his Dair BS is almost unpunishable. ughh I need some higher level advice on this matchup.

Overall. Shields are nerfed, so grabs are nerfed, meaning offense/attacks are buffed. Smash 4 will become more fun to watch (more attacking + more perfect shields!), spacing will now become even more critical, and this game will really reward those with good movement. Everyone practice those pivots, dash pivots, foxtrots, etc. In application, the real effect of this patch is to buff the mobile/smaller non-Sheik characters (pika, fox, yoshi, kirby?). Frankly I'll love anything other than a boring single character (Diddy/Sheik) tier dictatorship. I'll take it.
Even at the expense of D3 and other heavies? I really feel like this patch is particularly devastating for us...
 

Soul Train

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Even at the expense of D3 and other heavies? I really feel like this patch is particularly devastating for us...
:( Yes but I...I have hope, for whatever patch brings us the next DLC characters, and I won't allow past patch history to discourage this. Look at the patterns; Nintendo hasn't gone about patching with tons of thorough analysis - it feels more like they handle a few issues at a time and see what happens (the Diddy nerf, Ike/Robin buffed, etc). Patch 1.1.1 seems to be the Custom moves patch - with a Luigi nerf/shield stun nerf thrown in.

So I predict a D3 buff sometime before Christmas. He's the only heavy who hasn't received any kind of good buff. It's time. #hope
 

Nohbody

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For D3, the most noteworthy aspect of this patch was Luigi's dthrow nerf. It stifles much of the terror of being grabbed, and thus makes shielding safer. Personally I don't see how the shieldstun changes will affect much - it's a double-edged sword. We MIGHT be safer with Ftilts, but rushdown will be even worse. I dislike.

For the record, Bair was already safe(ish) on block. You can jump again before touching ground after a shorthop Bair and stay safe/punish any dash grab attempts.
I just realized this last week...after maining dedede for 4 months...almost have the timing down to muscle memory. Its damn useful.
 

Rebel13

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I was just fiddling around with D3 and I found that Fsmash is now ridiculous. Super safe on shield, and crazy shield damage. It makes a great ledge trap now too. Just toss an up gordo to cover a roll on from the ledge and Fsmash, and you either hit them, or you practically break their shield, and most likely get a followup or shield poke with F-tilt. It's not the greatest move ever, but nothing is as satisfying as breaking shields with a giant hammer :4dedede:.
 
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SalsaSavant

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With every buff benefiting the characters around him, lowering him, and Dedede's only change being a minor fix to his FS, I think a change for him is inevitable.

My main concern is how they balance him in FFA vs. 1v1. He's high tier in FFA, and a lot of changes that would benefit him in 1v1 would make him broken in FFA.
 

dreamastermind

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After doing more games, I'd say the stun is just barely notifiable. No move we have is fast enough for where we can benefit from it nor is the stun long enough where we can't be hit. I wish it made a difference if you were using a more powerful move. Like forward smash would stun them more, but it doesn't.

In the end, I'd say it just barely makes a difference. Forward smash might be safer though. Maybe. Darn great for breaking shields.
 

FrostBlitzkrieg

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Just played in a tournament for 1.1.1 and I found a few things from playing...

I did about a 100 games last night. Broke 5 shields, 1 that I uploaded to my channel. Fast Fall Neutral Air seems safer too, something I use to get punished on a lot. But I'll have to test more. Nothing seemed too significant to be honest, but the patch just happened so we'll have to test more.
Fast fall neutral air is still unsafe against a lot of characters. Mario can still punish out of shield and I'm sure character's with fast jabs like Falcon can still punish if you land in front of them. Fast fall B-air is actually safe on shield now from my experience, which is huge IMO. You can start up the move low enough that you have the extra landing-lag and as long as they don't powershield you push them back far enough that they can't punish.

For the record, Bair was already safe(ish) on block. You can jump again before touching ground after a shorthop Bair and stay safe/punish any dash grab attempts.
Yeah, this works really well to wall someone out or just fishing for a B-air but it doesn't hit short characters on the ground if you use it like that.

I was just fiddling around with D3 and I found that Fsmash is now ridiculous. Super safe on shield, and crazy shield damage. It makes a great ledge trap now too. Just toss an up gordo to cover a roll on from the ledge and Fsmash, and you either hit them, or you practically break their shield, and most likely get a followup or shield poke with F-tilt. It's not the greatest move ever, but nothing is as satisfying as breaking shields with a giant hammer :4dedede:.
It seems to me that F-smash is a better option than before, because they basically can't punish it if they shield unless they are very fast. I got 2 shield breaks during the tournament, but it doesn't seem like it does more shield damage... I'm not certain, but I think Dedede enjoys the new changes to shields.
 
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Shaya

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Attack | Ending | Auto Cancel | Landing | Patch Diff
Neutral Air Sweet | [-23,-24] | [-20,-21] | -7 | 4
Neutral Air Sour | [-4,-24] | [-1,-21] | -9 | 4
Forward Air1 | [-18,-20] | [-18,-20] | -22 | 4
Back Air | [-7,-9] | [-4,-6] | -10 | 5
Up Air Pre | [-21,-32] | [-20,-31] | -20 | 2
Up Air Final | [-15,-16] | [-14,-15] | -18 | 3
Down Air Spike | [-14,-15] | [-12,-13] | -20 | 7
Down Air Sweet | [-14,-15] | [-12,-13] | -20 | 5
Down Air Sour | [-18,-19] | [-16,-17] | -24 | 3

So his sizable gains were in Down Air sweetspots, and back air.
Full action = not landing during the animation, the patch diff is how many frames extra those moves are on block now.

I'm not sure how viable auto cancelling Down Air, an auto cancelled sour nair (-1 optimally) are, but ff sweetspot nair can generally only be grabbed unless power shielded

Any multi hit move which an opponent could shield drop between (your ftilt) got buffed in this patch 100%.
Gordos had a hitlag modifier and are now safer on shield by quite a few frames. Could see a lot easier guaranteed traps on it.

Back Air is so meaty and if you can space and time for an auto cancel you're advantaged on shield drops, you can grab before any character with slower than a 2 frame jab can do much about.

Dedede will likely find himself more easily pressuring in this patch once he gets going. Nothing huge, but I do think as a character with high damage values he has come out on top more on average. How dedede can trap a shield and cover the opponent's afterwards could all be that much more feasible.
 
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Flawed

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I think this patch was a nerf to us.
We just don't benefit enough.
I don't know why, but ZSS turned a bad match-up into some monstrosity that I'd never play.

Gordo is better on shield ( as learned by FG spamming) can reliably dash grab or even WALK grab an uptilted gordo trap that hits shield.

What I'm finding is that although we have a little more leniency with our moves, so does the majority of the cast. I'm having problems with the Links , ZSS, Ryu, Megaman. Seems almost like projectiles are also safer on the shield..

My secondary/or offline character Pika turned into a monster so, its ok though ;D
 

Axel311

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I also think this was an indirect nerf to us. Rush down types were the ones that really benefited, and Dedede isn't that. He's not an aggressive character that's going to be frequently and constantly banging shields.

Also, a lot of his approach relies on shield. Especially when it comes to Dedede getting camped. If projectiles also create more shield stun when you miss the perfect shield that's really bad for Dedede and makes approaching all that more difficult. Also, Dedede's frame data is generally so awful, that even with the shield nerf a lot of stuff that wasn't safe on shield I assume still isn't (but I haven't tested)...like downsmash, ftilt, bair, upsmash and fair. If any of these are safer, I haven't noticed.

Good points about bair, but I haven't noticed a huge difference yet. if it were to be safer on shield against a lot more characters, that would be very helpful.
 
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randomguy1235

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You know, I initially assumed that the patch was far more negative for us than it really is. In my time playing, however, Bair, F-tilt, F-smash, Gordo toss, and arguably D-smash are substantially more safe on shield, and the Gordo traps have subsequently become more effective. I've gotten quite a few shield-breaks on good opponents that simply cannot react out after shielding a Gordo with an incoming smash because of the shield stun rework.

I think we Dedede mains now need to focus more on spacing out opponents and, especially, approaching from the air to avoid rush down character approaches.
 
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imFINEsir

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HOLY **** I CAN SUCC MY OWN GORDO! Kreygasm This should make gordo more safe and our ranged game slightly better. Also: am i the only one finding bair harder to land now?
 
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