Did I move too fast? Thoughts on Marths evolution

[Emblem Lord]

As I stalk these once great halls that once had great, new and exciting information on almost a weekly basis pushing Marths metagame forward, I am now taken aback by the emptiness of the forum in its current state.

So to those that knew me, knew the foundation that I built and from that foundation an empire of knowledge was born - did I move too quickly?

In my haste to show Marths worth did I speed up the evolution of his metagame too quickly? Now pretty much all the char forums are dead and quite a few were dead even during my prime where it seemed I stumbled onto something new a daily basis. But Marth as a char has such a fluid play style and there are several diff ways to play him effectively.

Should I have held out? Should I have left something for the other Marth scholars and scientist to uncover. I didn't do it all. But I did the most and the most quickly.

What say you brothers? Is it the Marth sages fault that the flame of knowledge that burned bright years ago is now a dying ember? Or was it inevitable? Would someone else like pierce or steel simply posted everything I had posted in my stead?

I eagerly await your responses.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You didn't move too fast so much as move on too fast imo. I can elaborate if needed.

Missed having you around, you taught me a lot.

 

[C.J.]

What is this madness? EL posts a thread and TEH_SPAMMER comes in to see it o_O

Anyway, no EL, you didn't move too quickly. Steel/Pierce/eventually I would have posted it all in your stead.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Shoutouts to Spam, Verm and Allied creeping in this thread.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Shout outs to the OGs showin respect by viewing. When an OG posts other OGs lurk.

Love and respect guys.

 

[Orion*]

kashif y

 

[Emblem Lord]

Feel free to go into extreme details guys.

 

[clowsui]

Even chillin

CHILLIN U NEVER EVEN FREAKING PLAYED MARTH EFF U

 

[Emblem Lord]

Might have something to do with the link I posted on Facebook. Lol.

 

[Ayce God]

well the past is irrelevant, you're here now, let's get marth to top 5

 

[Orion*]

Most of the marths that actually want to learn about the game and dont just rely on hard reads dont actively play actively enough to be tournament threats. So I don't really think you leaving broke the Marth community, lmao moreso just that the nature of the players that picked up the character arent willing to compete, especially considering how hard the character is to play in comparison to many other top tiers.

Marth was one of my original mains along with falco in brawl, but I quickly dropped him for a secondary MK after 2008 because of the work required. My MK just got better faster, and that matters, especially at a lower level of play. At high level I do believe it comes down to the player once you past the viability stage, but to get at least to mid level most beginners dont want to deal with the stress of a multidimensional character like marth.

 

[clowsui]

. When I got into competitive smash the way the game was played was more about countering what the opponent's current action, rather than planning a longer term game that eliminates their options systematically.

This statement I think applies to Brawl too...not enough Marths have developed a pressure game comprehensive enough that could be defined as "systematic". For example, Marth's movement has been developed well BUT his movement relative to controlling the opponent's reactions as well as movement relative to exercising stage control is underdeveloped. It's super vague (mostly because I haven't really watched through vids with this perspective) but my intuition has led me to this direction. I've been wrong plenty of times before though!

EL add me on FB. Chi Wong. I requested you

 

[Lord Chair]

People are just lazy and aren't willing to discuss at a high level. The same thing happens on most boards where the same input is repeated 100 times and people keep evaluating matchups or moves individually instead of actually asking questions/reviewing specific situations. The thread about jab is kind of a perfect example for that, doesn't everyone know the specifics of the move by now? Why have people still not discussed conditioning even though everyone pretends to know what it is?

If the same stuff keeps being processed no one ever gets anywhere. Then again, for some reason even after playing for ages a lot of Marth players still haven't got their character control down so perhaps we're just going to have to wait for that. Some day, people will know when to fastfall, double jump, go for the ledge and God bless do stuff off-stage without killing themselves.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I def see a lot of Marths running on raw instinct instead of good pressure and trap scenarios. Basically I'm not seeing that cerebral Marth gameplay that limits options that I advocated so much in my time. I see a lot of play by feel and I don't believe it's optimal Marth gameplay at all.

But....I'm aiming to change all that.

 

[Player-3]

chair you know full well it's impossible to do stuff offstage without killing yourself

marth is a pretty simple character at his core nobody just wants to go any farther past that and i don't care enough about brawl to play the game more to practice traps and all that considering i don't have a wii

 

[Emblem Lord]

Simple to play but hard to bring out his full potential.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

I don't think many people possess the reaction time to afford to play cerebral with Marth.

Ultimately Marth is usually the character forced to somewhat approach the opponent (no projectile), and as a result, the fast raw instinct method is the one getting results.

Of course, I can safely assume that this mindset will be a thing of the past, now that you have returned, Lord.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah, it's all your fault that Marth hasn't become what he was supposed to become.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lol. They knew I was lurking swf about a week before I posted. Dudes be stalkin swear on my life.

 

[Nike.]

*I hope not to catch too much "wtf nike you are stupid", but it is some of my thought process on the character recently*

I've actually put alot of thought into what happened to Marth after your departure. What I came to realize was a few things:

• How you describe options/scenarios/etc not only were accurate and made sense, but were just easy to comprehend. Back in 2008, this was a big deal. Your posts were easy to soak up for someone who would only lurk for knowledge. For example, every time I need a refresher in the DDD match up, I look at the post you made in 2008 over the 570934675346345645 wall-of-text posts made since then. I feel as though it helps that much. Since your departure, I've only seen a few people come close to you in this aspect, with CJ being the most recent.

• The few weaknesses Marth has that have since been long exploited. I remember when RCO lag was first discovered and brought up in the Marth boards. Some people posted wondering how it'll affect Marth and I remember you saying that it's not at all a big deal and that we can easily work around it. This was, unfortunately, not the case. It made the problems that Marth has on the ledge and in juggle situations, 2 of his major weaknesses, that much more difficult. Imho, if it weren't for RCO, I'd argue that Marth could go up 1 spot in the tier list. I think it's that much of a game changer. At the highest level of play, it still affects both offensive and defensive situations for mike/neko/ramin (though they are very good at keeping it to a minimum). Marth is the only top tier character that gets screwed by this dum glitch.

• Power shielding in 2008 metagame discussion wasn't as much of a factor; back then it was under the whole "read the opponent, irrelevant" argument. In 2012, whether of not it is apart of that same argument, doesn't matter anymore because power shielding tipper *insert move* is something that many players have learned to abuse (a good portion of it being reaction as opposed to read). DDD dash -> power shield landing tipper aerial -> shield di (discovered by kprime last year) -> shield grab is a perfect example.

• A players refusal to play Marth exactly how he was meant to be played. Mikeneko is easily the best at applying Marth's tools to his fullest potential. However, while the theory players drool over his playstyle, others (myself included) find it boring. Spoiled are we of Roy_R from 08/09 and Ramin/Leon since then. It's hard to not be inspired by Ramin's smooth, fast and crisp platform cancel -> **** or Leon's reads with extremely high risk/high reward scenarios involved.

• We've elaborated on it before, but mental draining is still an aspect of Marth. Plenty of Marth mains have given up on him and moved to greener pastures (alot of that MK) because of how exhausting it is to go all Marth in a tourney. On the rare occasion that I make to top3 in tournies, I'm completely drained and almost always have a huge headahce at the after-tourney dinners. I can't imagine going through that at every tourney I go to, which is why I have such huge respect for Mike and the gang. It's not necessarily an ingame thing, though, and completely player specific.

____________________________________________________________



To answer your question, no, I don't think Marth's evolution moved too fast. There are a couple more advancements to certain aspects of Marths game that can be worked on, though (or at least discussed on the boards). Dancing Blade, ironically a topic of yours in 08 and something we've tried to emulate here in recent times, can still use alot of research. There's probably a couple topics, but Dancing Blade is at the top of my head.

Outside of everything mentioned, though, I like where Marth is at currently. He's still the Mario of the best characters, no specific broken tactic or get-out-of-jail-free card that most other top tier has, but just well rounded overall. He still has that same potential when in the right hands/mindset, yet it's still difficult to reach that point. It's a challenge, yet an extremely rewarding one for us proud marth mains.

Btw, I saw you post recently somewhere else about Snake and I absolutely agree with him being even with Marth.

 

[ScareMl]

that was a good read. good observations nike.

Btw, I saw you post recently somewhere else about Snake and I absolutely agree with him being even with Marth.

and also, lol

 

[Zano]

I try to not suck but iz hard

 

[Nicholas1024]

I think the main problem is just that Marth is hard to be consistently good with, mainly due to his troubles landing and getting off the edge. Since he doesn't have much in the way of a panic button, and he'll get punished really hard if you go on autopilot or just get read. True, Marth can definitely dictate the flow of a match, but if he ever loses the momentum, it's difficult to regain your footing.

Add onto the above the fact that MK is basically Marth with a ridiculous recovery and a few "You can't touch me, I'm MK" moves, and it's hardly surprising that high-level Marth play is rare.

 

[etecoon]

the lack of a safety net is big, marth has a ton of upside but he doesn't have the "yeah but" that bails out the top tiers when they **** up

MK "yeah but nado/SL/ledge camp"
snake "yeah but *lives to 200%+*"
olimar "yeah but *whistle*"
IC's "yeah but one grab and you lose"

the best characters tend to have stronger momentum breakers where marth runs very hot and cold, I've seen top marths go into tailspins that I don't feel like I've seen as much of from the better characters' top tiers

 

[Emblem Lord]

The only Marth I consider top is mikeneko. Not trying to be rude but the man has the right idea. As far as Marth being exhausting holy crap do I ever disagree. I find his gameplay invigorating and exhilarating when you see the results.

A character with the tools to win any match and is rewarded for knowledge and calculated gameplay. What is the appeal of taking risks and I'm sorry but essentially playing stupid when the char directly rewards high level understanding and training? Marth is not dk or bowser. He does not have the weight or raw force to simple overpower people and then let his weight grant him more chances to guess right. He is a control/momentum based character that sets the pace of the match.

I find he only struggles to regain control when it's forced or the Marth overextends themselves.

It's 2012 now. If you know what Marth is about and u play in tourney y would you go out of your way to play risky knowing that's not what he is?

Sorry but I work hard for my money I'm not going to a tourney to make other people richer because I'm too stubborn (read as stupid) to accept that I'm playing the char incorrectly or maybe I'm jus using the wrong char.

 

[Jeos]

the best characters tend to have stronger momentum breakers where marth runs very hot and cold, I've seen top marths go into tailspins that I don't feel like I've seen as much of from the better characters' top tiers

If you think marth lacks a momentum breaker, then you're not using Up-B. If you say "yeah but he only has that" then you're not using counter.

But above those two options overall, if you think marth needs a momentum breaker, then you're not landing tippers, in particular F-smash, D-smash, 2nd hit nair or even a random spike.

Come on, marth resolves everything on his tippers, you underestimate the huge psichological pressure of the advantage that a tipper puts on the opponent. I can't remember how many times I've turned around completely lost matches with just focusing on spacing and baiting a single tipper F-smash for a fresh 80% kill.

I think that it come down to us, to develop top marth playstyles because it all resolves around us and the specific opponent, to exploit reads and baits into tippers or the surprising Dolphin Slash (for grab lovers like ddd or icies)

 

[Blistering Speed]

The original premise of this topic is egotistical beyond words.

 

[C.J.]

But it's true lol. EL jumpstarted the Marth metagame quicker than every other character. Joined by Steel, Pierce, Junk, and NEO the Marth boards were, unquestionably, the most intelligent and productive boards at the time.
Even beyond that though, EL wrote the best guides on ledge traps, zoning, and brick walls in the general forums.

It is really inarguably that the original Marth metagame was handcrafted first by EL with NEO being gdlk and coming to put it all into practice.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Blistering Speed: you would be right if I was talking hot air, but the posts from this thread alone show that what I'm saying has merit.

But I also said I wasn't the only one, just that I did the most in the shortest amount of time.

I remember when NEO and I would stay up late on aim talking about stage control, match ups, gimmicks, etc.

Good times.

 

[Zankoku]

Hi EL, good to know you're still around.

 

[etecoon]

If you think marth lacks a momentum breaker, then you're not using Up-B. If you say "yeah but he only has that" then you're not using counter.

the risk:reward on throwing out these attacks when your opponent is in your face is mediocre, they can get you out of a bad spot but they can just as easily lose you the game(DS especially, I see a lot of "**** it, I'm going DEEP!" from marths...I'm guilty as **** of this too though, I'm unskilled so I tend to take a lot of gambles that better players should have no need of). fair point on tippers though

also have to disagree with mikeneko being the only top marth, he does appear to be the best marth as of now but others like mikehaze and leon certainly have impressive accomplishments regardless of whether or not they're always playing the character completely optimally. if you want to argue that their accomplishments aren't enough that would be one thing but I don't think it's right to discredit them simply on playstyle

Sorry but I work hard for my money I'm not going to a tourney to make other people richer because I'm too stubborn (read as stupid) to accept that I'm playing the char incorrectly or maybe I'm jus using the wrong char.

if you're of this mentality why play marth to begin with, why not MK or IC's? I haven't seen anything in the past 4 years to make me think marth is an especially great option for consistently placing in the money, particularly in a region like NJ

 

[Emblem Lord]

What I'm really saying is that if u r trying to compete and prove ur the best then playing super risky or playing a way you know is not conducive towards that goal makes no kind of sense.

Also for me top player in any game means not just winning but bringing out the chars potential and using the tools correctly.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Joined by Steel, Pierce, Junk, and NEO the Marth boards were, unquestionably, the most intelligent and productive boards at the time.

One of the most deluded about their character also. The expectactions placed on Marth as a character by the boards never matched his actual capabilities - proven by nonsense like the "without MK Marth be like top 3!"-fad. There's a difference between being 'productive' and flat-out not accepting that your character never was - and will never be - as good as you [not you personally, but 'you' as in 'you, the Marth community'] were always trying to make him look.

If you were so 'productive' then where are the results? MH, MN and Leon all developed their styles completely independently of what you guys were going on about and they are three of the four best Marth players and virtually the only ones other than Mr-r to pull off top level wins somewhat consistently. Why is it that none of the Marth players that followed your 'ideal' approach to the character actually enjoyed consistent success in tourney, while those that *don't* follow that approach *do* place well and get big wins regularly? No, you weren't moving 'too fast', you were just moving into the wrong direction.

It's 2012 now. If you know what Marth is about and u play in tourney y would you go out of your way to play risky knowing that's not what he is?

Without taking risks Marth cannot win.

 

[C.J.]

I disagree about MikeNeko. MikeNeko takes the theory that EL (and later myself) saw and puts it into practice almost perfectly- although he remains a little too safe imo.

I definitely think that there were delusions about his ability, and that the theory may have been exaggerated, but the basic ideas were, and still are, sound.

And while the application of the theorycraft to Marth may have been exaggerated, the general theory was still accurate. EL's threads on brickwalls and ledge traps still hold true today.

And while Mike didn't adopt EL/NEO's theory of play for Marth, he certainly has adopted a lot of my advice and ideas- many of which came from extending what I learned from EL and the others.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I disagree about MikeNeko. MikeNeko takes the theory that EL (and later myself) saw and puts it into practice almost perfectly- although he remains a little too safe imo.

I don't know what theories you are talking about here. The 'traps' he uses are rather basic and no groundbreaking stuff that other characters can't pull off. Good spacing and abusing the unfavorable positions of your opponents are tactics that every other character depends on just as much.

And while the application of the theorycraft to Marth may have been exaggerated, the general theory was still accurate. EL's threads on brickwalls and ledge traps still hold true today.

They do but they are not Marth-only concepts. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that ledge traps are actually the most powerful tool *against* Marth and while I can't think of a single match-up that improved particularly because of ledge traps I can think of a couple that became *worse* for Marth because of it.

 

[Lord Chair]

Different characters use different ledge traps. Your post doesn't make sense.

Also, Marth's ledge traps are broken and more destructive than most other characters'.

 

[clowsui]

Chair's right lol. Marth's sheer # of ledge traps combined with the variability associated w multiple ledge traps make his ledge traps ridiculous, psychologically and mechanically speaking.

Also don't be stupid, Gheb. Obviously Marth has to take risks (because he doesn't have BS like other top tier characters), but tons of Marths at the top level (barring Mikeneko) take a lot of unnecessary risks.

 

[Emblem Lord]

They are not marth exslusive but I would say he excels at putting people there and is one of the few chars that aims to trap his opponent besides Diddy and MK though MK does alot of stuff naturally based on design and how he works.

Alot of chars simply lack the tools and mobility to do what Marth does.

And I disagree about Marth needing to take risk. Actually i have never disagreed more about something stated about Marth in my life.

As far as delusions go...idk what you are talking about. I speak only for myself, but i said fom the beggining Marth will not win majors consistently. I said he was a high tier character while many others said he wass top tier. I said he only had a few bad matches at most and only wrecked bad chars which was true. I said he had alot of even matches and this was also true.

Do not seek to pin any sense of delusion on me.

I could care less how successful a player is. You can be successful with a char and still not maximize their potential and I could argue mikeneko is just as successful since he also places well in tourney and recently took second at a major in japan.

Moved in the wrong direction? And what exactly was the wrong direction? Talking about how a char limits their opponent, maximizes reward, etc...this is the wrong direction?

Dang man, guess FG players have been doing it wrong for decades now.

But no im actually curious...what in the world did you mean by that?

 

[C.J.]

Gheb, I'm aware they're not Marth-only concepts. I'm referring to the threads EL made in the general forums outlining all of this stuff in a general concept for the benefit of multiple characters, not just Marth. Only after he posted the general threads in the general boards did he come back here and make Marth-centric versions of the guides.

@Marcel- while you yourself may not have been deluded as to Marth's abilities, you always discussed them in a manner where it was reasonable for people to see Marth's traits only in a positive light. As a result of this, there was a long period of time with a lot of people being very deluded wrt Marth. While it may not have been you, it was because of you. Granted, that's hardly reason to blame or attribute the delusions to you, but w/e.

 

[clowsui]

Also,

If you were so 'productive' then where are the results? MH, MN and Leon all developed their styles completely independently of what you guys were going on about and they are three of the four best Marth players and virtually the only ones other than Mr-r to pull off top level wins somewhat consistently. Why is it that none of the Marth players that followed your 'ideal' approach to the character actually enjoyed consistent success in tourney, while those that *don't* follow that approach *do* place well and get big wins regularly? No, you weren't moving 'too fast', you were just moving into the wrong direction.

This is just plain stupid. For the Marth theorists to be "right" they don't have to come into the thread and say that they're using theorists' ideas. We can just look at their playstyle, see if what they're doing matches up with what theorists say, and empirically use it as evidence of the principles being applied correctly.