Did everyone deserted the Belmonts?

[AfroGamerNinja]

I'm asking, since I feel like this sub-forum is devoid of life.

 

[Sauce09]

Pretty much. The forum never has anything new, and Belmont is definitely one of the most underused and underrated characters of this game. Makes sense, I guess.

 

[Bobert]

I don't think there are many Belmont mains considering the stigma around using them, and there are 70 other characters to use so it's not that surprising. They also probably have the worst disadvantage of all of the projectile zoners in the game(other than K.Rool), so people feel discouraged in using them.

 

[Soyaccino]

I don't think there are many Belmont mains considering the stigma around using them, and there are 70 other characters to use so it's not that surprising. They also probably have the worst disadvantage of all of the projectile zoners in the game(other than K.Rool), so people feel discouraged in using them.

Sorry I might be a bit behind here: What’s the stigma in using them? Where’s the disadvantage?

 

[Idon]

Sorry I might be a bit behind here: What’s the stigma in using them? Where’s the disadvantage?

Stigma: skill-less, item-spamming, disjoint abusing noob-stompers.
Disadvantage: extremely poor recovery.

 

[AfroGamerNinja]

Come to think of it, how do they fare, tournament-wise?

 

[Avvin]

Im still all about some Belmont's. If agree with there being a stigma but there is with most zoning characters. I think the thing that sets them apart with stigma is their projectiles are less viable for getting lots of damage on since they're very visible and predictable and more about controlling your opponents options for approach. In a lot of cases it may seem to an outsider your just doing it cause you have nothing better to do even though you have to be ready for what happens when they do slide past your cross and axe

 

[Omar_25]

The sub-forum is devoid of life because Discord has pretty much replaced it. There's definitely a few belmonts out there, just not many that post here.

 

[AfroGamerNinja]

The sub-forum is devoid of life because I Discord has pretty much replaced it. There's definitely a few belmonts out there, just not many that post here.

Do you have an invite to that Discord, please?

 

[Omar_25]

Do you have an invite to that Discord, please?

Sure! All you really have to do is go to the Smashcords character discords and look for the Simon/Richter discord.

 

[Sauce09]

Wanted to delete this message; couldn't find the option.

 

[xZRx]

I feel like I have seen less of them (at least in quick play) because people stopped being annoyed by them and just learned how to easily counter bad players trying to use them, especially on plat stages. just go high to avoid cross and holy water, air dodge or go over axe and air dodge to the ground, counter/sidestep/block the inevitible down smash or grab, and start your combo. (or with any character with literally any other move that has longer range than cross, just harass them from a far and wait for them to get sick of it and rush in to you to attack.)
when cheap tricks stop working for bad players, they move on to try something else.
that being said i have run into a few that have been extremely accurate with spacing, axe timing, and the tiny hitboxes on some of the whip attacks that have kicked my ass, it just takes a lot of practice to get good with them i think.

 

[DungeonMaster]

The bad news is this character is likely bottom 5 if we're talking 1v1.
Here are the major points:
1. All of his projectiles can be reacted to, they are slow startup and terrible FAF
2. At higher levels of play parrying just destroys him
3. At higher levels of play Belmont gets nothing from a parry, literally an f-tilt, that's it, he can't kill at all from a parry because of #4
4. His frame data is terrible, awful, worst in the game
5. His hurtbox extension is absurd, every move extends his hurtbox to a ludicrous degree
6. His hitboxes are tiny, and often fail to properly connect vs shifting opponent hurtboxes or trade or lose due to #5
7. He has no landing options, D-air is awful
8. His recovery is little-mac levels of bad
9. His grab is terrible, like god awful range
10. His overall kill power is too low, yes situational low % kills can happen but it's just too damn low overall
11. His combo game is great but they all work in tiny % ranges and no one is using it at all right now

The only hope for this character is #1 patches and #2 improving his combo game. Right now he's still in the noob killer and no-familiarity phase but soon he plummets down tier lists like a rock. Mark my words.

 

[Nesysli]

Coincidentally enough, I just started using only the Belmonts & Palutena recently. Loved Simon & Richter right from the start, definitely had to work around their recovery but man there fun to use.

 

[Sauce09]

The bad news is this character is likely bottom 5 if we're talking 1v1.
Here are the major points:
1. All of his projectiles can be reacted to, they are slow startup and terrible FAF
2. At higher levels of play parrying just destroys him
3. At higher levels of play Belmont gets nothing from a parry, literally an f-tilt, that's it, he can't kill at all from a parry because of #6
4. His frame data is terrible, awful, worst in the game
5. His hurtbox extension is absurd, every move extends his hurtbox to a ludicrous degree
6. His hitboxes are tiny, and often fail to properly connect vs shifting opponent hurtboxes or trade or lose due to #5
7. He has no landing options, D-air is awful
8. His recovery is little-mac levels of bad
9. His grab is terrible, like god awful range
10. His overall kill power is too low, yes situational low % kills can happen but it's just too damn low overall
11. His combo game is great but they all work in tiny % ranges and no one is using it at all right now

The only hope for this character is #1 patches and #2 improving his combo game. Right now he's still in the noob killer and no-familiarity phase but soon he plummets down tier lists like a rock. Mark my words.

Of course you can react to most projectiles in the game. Why is that Belmont exclusive? Terrible FaF? Have you looked at the frame data? Cross and Holy Water has less end lag than Ness' PK fire, Marios' fireball, Palutena's projectiles, Pikachu's/Pichu's thundershock, and has less start up than boomerang and most aforementioned projectiles. What are you talking about? Are you just fixating on Axe?

Parrying destroys him? Have you tested this? I assume not, since you couldn't even look at his frame data for his projectiles. I couldn't punish Ftilt after a parry using Fox or Marcina, using the tap by frame. Most characters don't have the ability to close the distance and hit after a parry.

Worst frame data? Have you looked at other characters? Characters like Zelda, Snake, most heavies, have sick end lag on their aerials. 14 frame start up isn't bad at all for their range, and they auto cancel really early. Sounds like you have a hate boner for this character.

Little Mac recovery? Hello? Tether? It's one of the better close range options for recovery, angled tether can't be blocked by being in front of him, and he recovers much farther than little mac ever could. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Can't do anything out of parry? I guess you have Belmont all figured out, huh?

Fast fall Nair is a decent land option, as well as a whiffed Dair or Dair off stage followed by UpB. Most characters have few landing options, dude.

If Belmont drops in the tier lists, fine, but it has nothing to do with your reasonings. How about sharing some of his actual problems? You know, the problems any Belmont player figures out after actually playing them? Like no close range pressure options, lacking 45 degree attack options above, Nair has bad end lag, narrow hit boxes (which surprisingly you mentioned).

Yikes.

 

[EnigmaticNerd]

at the moment, most of the big time players are putting him in high tier. he is good, but struggles with a lot of matchups.
If you wanna see them in action, Shuton surprised everyone when he pulled Richter out at Frostbite recently. And whats incredible is that if you scroll down and read the comments, there is almost no venom or hatred directed at Richter at all. even Twitch chat during the match were all really rooting for Richter. You can see that the crowd there was really loving it as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7iWPpOWAs8
(watching his axes just cleave through several pikmin at once is so satisfying, lol)

and Richter isnt even his main, so he isn't nearly as well practiced with him(as evident by 2 SD's in the second match, as well as fumbling a bit at the end when he could have easily Fsmash and won when he landed the holy water). With a little more work, his Richter could be insane.

Also.....

lol, what? Parrying is literally useless against the Belmonts at any level of play as long as the player is even moderately competent at spacing. his massive range makes it almost impossible to punish him on a successful parry. unless you manage to parry the whip at very close range, no character is fast enough to run past the range of his whip to punish before he recovers.

the range of his whip tether is HUGE, and it can even grab the ledge if you are directly underneath it. His recovery only struggles against characters that can jump really far out to gimp him.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Of course you can react to most projectiles in the game. Why is that Belmont exclusive? Terrible FaF? Have you looked at the frame data? Cross and Holy Water has less end lag than Ness' PK fire, Marios' fireball, Palutena's projectiles, Pikachu's/Pichu's thundershock, and has less start up than boomerang and most aforementioned projectiles. What are you talking about? Are you just fixating on Axe?

His fastest projectile is cross at frame 19 AND its travel speed is abysmal slow, unless this is thrown point blank your grandma can block it on reaction. Let's not even talk axe at frame 30. You have a half second to react to axe on startup and you're literally in DDD f-smash territory on anything past the initial rise of the axe. Do not talk about Palutena's projectiles in the same frame of reference, explosive flame may be frame 28 but it travels *instantly*. And it has better properties.
Mario's fireball, pichu's thunderjolt out of a full jump can be run after for setups. You are literally picking fantastic projectiles to compare against - it's clear to me that you don't understand smash projectiles.
This character is centralized around HW, literally if you do not land HW you're not getting anything. HW can be *used against him* faster then he can get up his shield. His *best* option can be literally used against him to kill him before he can react in any way. They can catch it and smash it in your face. Try doing that to pk fire. Or a mario fireball. Or palutena's explosive flame.

Parrying destroys him? Have you tested this? I assume not, since you couldn't even look at his frame data for his projectiles. I couldn't punish Ftilt after a parry using Fox or Marcina, using the tap by frame. Most characters don't have the ability to close the distance and hit after a parry.

You can hit his goddamn arm. Remember that hurtbox extension? Aim to hit his arm. He can be hit by a sword counter at near-to-full range and parry destroys him at anything but pixels of tipper f-tilt.

Worst frame data? Have you looked at other characters? Characters like Zelda, Snake, most heavies, have sick end lag on their aerials. 14 frame start up isn't bad at all for their range, and they auto cancel really early. Sounds like you have a hate boner for this character.

You're joking right? Frame 14 "isn't bad" means you're going to need to play more smash. His fastest aerial is frame 8 Nair - which is goddamn slow - and startup hitbox has him creamed from below. His D-air is frame 13 and loses to everything under the sun because his hurtbox is right beside his tiny hitbox. His dissadvantage state is called "Juggle me over and over again". Like zero options. Retreating the ledge is even more dangerous then sucking up a heaping pile of damage trying your 2 options to regain your feet - D-air and airdodge - over and over.
Yeah let's look at the other heavies for a moment: Snake frame 1 grenade, Bowser B-air Up-Air frame 9 + intangible N-air frame 8, F-air frame 11, K.Rool super armor N-air, DK B-air frame 7, Up-Air frame 6, D-air frame 14. All of these autocancel and unless you haven't noticed aerial endlag in ultimate is all but irrelevant.

Little Mac recovery? Hello? Tether? It's one of the better close range options for recovery, angled tether can't be blocked by being in front of him, and he recovers much farther than little mac ever could. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh I do, I really do. His tether is all but trivially intercepted. His air acceleration is the *worst* in the game and little mac actually creams us in top speed.

Can't do anything out of parry? I guess you have Belmont all figured out, huh?

D-smash is frame goddamn 14, it's +3 frame advantage on a parry and you can reliably get out a frame 10 move vs any parried aerials (Samus F-smash, which is one of if not the best out of parry options). So you're *NEVER* killing out of a parry. Unless they are at 180% near the ledge with an f-tilt. Hit parry game is god-awful. You might as well always Up-B OOS and that kills stupid late. One of the fundamental aspects of smash ultimate, parrying, is completely against this character from the get go.

Fast fall Nair is a decent land option, as well as a whiffed Dair or Dair off stage followed by UpB. Most characters have few landing options, dude.

FF N-air is a decent landing option?!?! I wrote up all my previous comments but I wouldn't have wasted my time if I had read this first.

If Belmont drops in the tier lists, fine, but it has nothing to do with your reasonings.

No. It has everything to do with my arguments. This character is ASS in his present form. He needs *SERIOUS* buffs to be even reasonably competitive. You will see this character purely as a counterpick for a handful of matchups. He's terrible. Godawful.
The title of this thread says it all. Literally everyone competitive knows or feels this character sucks and you can fully expect him to drop and drop on tier lists.

To be completely clear: I love Simon Belmont the character and was overjoyed to see him in smash. I voted for in the smash ballot and I will continue to secondary this pile of crap specifically because I love the character so much. But I know full well what I'm doing. And I'm really really hoping for major buffs in 3.0.

 

[Sauce09]

Cross is super slow and apparently has no follow ups, according to you, and ignore how much slower Pika's jolt or Mario's fireball travels. You keep saying that they can react to Belmonts projectiles on reaction, but act like the other aformentioned projectiles have no issues of their own and can't be compared. Yeah, this is clearly being biased. Maybe you should understand how his projectiles work, since you think there's nothing to gain by a missed HW and act like Cross has no properties.

I'm not sure why you're referencing random aerials for other characters, as if this is supposed to mean anything. They don't attack at nearly the same range. If they autocancel after a certain amount of frames, which means you can't fast fall the same way you can with Belmont, depending on the attack. What's your point?

Yes, a fast fall Nair can be a decent option, as well as a whiffed Dair. Learn the character.

As far as parrying goes, let's see what people come up with. Stop pretending you know more than you actually do.

If you think tether sucks, that's fine. It shows your knowledge of the character.

Some pro players think Belmont is good, like Leffen and Zero. They acknowledge their flaws, which strangely enough, actually matches up with the characters real flaws.

You can love the character all you want, but almost everything you're writing tells me that you're just parroting nonsense that you've heard before.

Edit: Also, buddy, I'm not going to keep going back and foward with you, by the way. There's no way you play Belmont, and I'd rather discuss this with someone that actually has any real knowledge of Belmont, besides what you can read on Kurogane.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Should you keep playing the character and fight high skill opponents, you will in time remember my posts Sauce, and remember my points.
I'm not going to go back and forth either, this character is bottom tier and the more the meta progresses the more it will become apparent.
Competitively 1v1 this character is basically dead on arrival. He may have some uses in doubles, or counterpick, but there's likely better.
None of the pro players you mention actually use the character.
It's sad actually. I'm upset but Konami should be furious.

 

[Sauce09]

Should you keep playing the character and fight high skill opponents, you will in time remember my posts Sauce, and remember my points.
I'm not going to go back and forth either, this character is bottom tier and the more the meta progresses the more it will become apparent.
Competitively 1v1 this character is basically dead on arrival. He may have some uses in doubles, or counterpick, but there's likely better.
None of the pro players you mention actually use the character.
It's sad actually. I'm upset but Konami should be furious.

Uhh, I'm probably going to forget about your post in a few minutes or so. You didn't write anything that was relevant to the character, just a bunch of hyperbole that stems from inexperience with Belmont.

 

[meleebrawler]

Should you keep playing the character and fight high skill opponents, you will in time remember my posts Sauce, and remember my points.
I'm not going to go back and forth either, this character is bottom tier and the more the meta progresses the more it will become apparent.
Competitively 1v1 this character is basically dead on arrival. He may have some uses in doubles, or counterpick, but there's likely better.
None of the pro players you mention actually use the character.
It's sad actually. I'm upset but Konami should be furious.

*Looks at Konami* *Looks at Castlevannia pachinko machines* Nah I think they're good. Really, old Castlevania games are hard for a reason: the protagonist's mobility and flexibility is quite low compared to most other heroes at the time. They've been getting knocked into pits from Medusa Heads sneezing on them since the dawn of time. Stands to reason they will be hard to succeed with without great precision and knowing the levels and enemies like the back of your hand.

Try throwing the cross backwards. You can approach much more effectively by attacking in tandem with it's return trip, and it can't easily be turned against you by reflectors this way.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Well meleebrawler I have been closely following Simon from launch, and I know the tech, the combos, the gameplan, the tricks. I've played him more than Samus in fact. I know combos and setups no one else does. It's not enough. I've been at this a long time, you as well, my opinion is that the character is ass and is only going to get worse. The honeymoon is over, matchup unfamiliarity won't save him forever, I've listed all the flaws and they're very real.

Needs buffs, and lots of them.

 

[meleebrawler]

Well meleebrawler I have been closely following Simon from launch, and I know the tech, the combos, the gameplan, the tricks. I've played him more than Samus in fact. I know combos and setups no one else does. It's not enough. I've been at this a long time, you as well, my opinion is that the character is *** and is only going to get worse. The honeymoon is over, matchup unfamiliarity won't save him forever, I've listed all the flaws and they're very real.

Needs buffs, and lots of them.

Not gonna happen buddy. They're too faithful to who they are, and that includes a weakness to small and/or fast creatures getting all up in their grill.

 

[KingCosta]

No, i main Simon and am very good. I dominate my High School on a daily basis only recent receiving my 1st 3 stock their (Meaning they 3 stocked me as i 3 stock them daily). In my opinion they are great characters and Simon personally feels right, when i go to another character i end up losing a stock over realizing i can't use the whip to ledge-grab. So if they really are being "Deserted" then i might just have to be the last dominating Simon main

 

[Jaro235]

When the game came out, I started out maining Simon. I really enjoyed his whip and ripping through World of Light with Simon was a lot of fun. I even played as him more than Yoshi during the first two months of Ultimate! It even inspired me to get into the Castlevania franchise. However, I have recently put him to the side in favor of Yoshi and Palutena because I don’t like the fact that all you can do to edge guard your opponents is to spam projectiles. Sure you can try to go off stage, but that is just extremely risky. One mistake, and you can end up falling into the blast zone. I still use him plenty, and he is still my favorite newcomer in Ultimate, but he is no longer my number one main.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

even online i think the belmonts have been abandoned can't remember the last time i fought simon/richter

 

[DungeonMaster]

Belmonts are essentially absent from 1v1 online elite smash. They are decent enough in 2v2 and ffa casual formats where you can indeed see them particularly if you check out spectate mode, but the character is just to awful to play online 1v1 with far too many bad matchups.
Many tournament players are also dropping them as the writing is on the wall.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

Belmonts are essentially absent from 1v1 online elite smash. They are decent enough in 2v2 and ffa casual formats where you can indeed see them particularly if you check out spectate mode, but the character is just to awful to play online 1v1 with far too many bad matchups.
Many tournament players are also dropping them as the writing is on the wall.

seems like the same case with isabelle and king k.rool characters that have also been quite absent from the competitive scene

 

[cmbsfm]

I play Belmont pretty regularly. Might take a break from him after getting my GSP tanked from 2 million to 400,000 thanks to several consecutive Joker matches. I for the life me can’t figure out how to beat Joker, but that’s for another topic.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

i think the recovery is a big downside for them that might be one of the things preventing them from going far

 

[KingCosta]

Their recovery might not be the best, but first, don't get off the stage in the first place. Not to mention using their whip to ledge-grab using forward-air. They both are good characters if used and trained correctly. I main Simon out of the two, but Richter is a good character, faster than Simon, but Simon being the stronger of the two. They have their down-sides of course as all characters do, but Simon and Richter's up-sides are way to good to ignore and push aside. To put it simply, They are good characters, i main them, i love them, you should too.

 

[EnigmaticNerd]

I main Simon out of the two, but Richter is a good character, faster than Simon, but Simon being the stronger of the two.

this is incorrect. all of their frame data is identical. walking, running, jumping, their weight, all their attacks, all their hitboxes, and the amount of damage they do are all completely identical.
literally the only difference between them is the properties of the holy water. Simons is fire, and Richters is aura. But one of the only things that effects is Olimars red Pikmin. red Pikmin can be thrown through Simons holy water flame, but not Richters.

see for yourself.....
https://ultimateframedata.com/simon.php
https://ultimateframedata.com/richter.php

 

[~?~]

Belmonts suffer from the same thing my main suffers from. EXTREMELY match up dependent character. He's either super good in the match up, or super bad in it. Most Belmonts I know are dual mains or tri mains who tend to play their other 1 or 2 mains just as much, or more than the Belmont they initially intended to play.

even online i think the belmonts have been abandoned can't remember the last time i fought simon/richter

Yesterday alone, 3 different Richter players and 1 Simon player came into my Arena. The character isn't as rare online as people claim. He's just rare in the competitive scene because of the match up spread.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

can anything be done for them?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Only patches. Very simple things would improve the experience significantly. Dropping 2 frames from d-smash would at least give him a reasonable fast kill punish. Increasing the kill power of his basic aerials so that people die at ~140 instead of 160+. Increasing kill power across the board so that he feels more like a slow heavy weight, which he is, right now he hits like a butterfly and stings like one too. Adjusting the Up-B so that it cannot be LSIed to 180+ and have it kill at a reasonable percentage. Make axe actually kill at reasonable percents, adjusting the knockback angle either upwards for less tight combos or outwards for ledge kills. Shaving some frames of endlag off of axe at the very damn least. It may be the worst projectile in the game at the moment.
His frame data is so bad and his hurtbox extension so terrible that some things would require a lot of work on the part of the patch people. Samus in 4 had a lot of hurtbox extension and they did nothing about it until ultimate, now she's fantastic and her moves work. So that kind of change is unlikely.

 

[Deleted member]

I still use them on occasion; they're fun to use, but they've got so much startup on their attacks its hard to really use them well against other people. They're better characters to use when you're just doing a 4v4 free-for-all.

It's pretty fun to use them as close-mid range fighters. People are so used to seeing the Belmonts as projectile spammers, so as soon as you close in for a whip-ranged fight, people have no idea how to counter them. I love throwing people up and immediately using their Up Special; it catches so many people off guard lol.

More often than not, though, I've been using Incineroar. People have become pretty predictable, so it's easier to get a Revenge off and then just hit them super hard with a clothesline (or Cross Chop; nobody ever suspects the Cross Chop).