DI mix-ups/landing Ken Combos with Roy

G13_Flux

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#1
Hi all

This isnt a full guide on how to play Roy (it will be relatively short instead), but rather it targets a specific aspect of roys gameplay. I wanted to post it because i havent really seen much discussion about this. It will be specifically useful for those who are just acquiring a seasoned roy, and are just picking up on some of the subtle nuances of his toolkit. f

Now the part im focussing on is specifically geared towards combo > kill transitions. Roy is lucky to have several of the best set ups for combos AND kills in the game. Specifically, dtilt and dair; however, other moves can possibly contribute to these set ups or are involved in them, such as fair, uair, dash attack, and utilt. All of this is generally known, however, putting them together in a way that allows you to land your most rewarding kill moves consistently, requires a bit more thought. The critical scenario thats important is generally as follows:

Roy and the opponent are near the ledge. By way of poking the ledge with dtilt, ledge-hop dair, or usually just landing one of those moves in general, you are presented with a perfect follow up situation that is usually followed up with by an fsmash or a bair. Now lets say that the opponent is at a percent where those moves wont quite kill. it might be worth it to try and extend the combo instead, knowing that they will likely DI up and in (this happens to be horrible combo DI). by exploiting this mix up, you are opened up to two important possibilities:

1.) fair > bair. this is good because instead of doing the bair right when you initially got your combo set up, you extended the combo, got a bit more damage off, and got them closer to the blastzone.

2.) fair > dair (ken combo!!). the real way to land this combo with roy is by exploiting this DI mix up.

now both of these combos really require DI in on the fair, which is why the threat of bair/fsmash coupled with fair is very important. its really a 50/50 DI mix up, and if they DI away on the bair or fsmash, theyre likely going to die at like 60%. anywhere from 60 - 90% is generally a really good range for these combos, but they can work into the lower 100's if the opponent is a bit heavier. keep in mind that the heavier your opponent, the less KB they take, and the likelier they are to break out quicker. ideally, you would aim to hit fair as late as possible, so that youre not only higher relative to the opponent, but you will have more actionable time while theyre in hitstun.

another even more nuanced mix up involves proper DI on the selection of either bair or dair as your finisher. an opponent who DIs properly for bair will not have DIed optimally for the dair spike (i.e. their resulting trajectory will be at minimum straight down, if not still outwards). in return, DIing for the dair in an attempt to possibly tech the stage will yeild pretty bad DI for a bair. This mix-up is very nuanced, and i havent really even seen it come into play much at a high level yet, but as the meta progresses, im very certain youre going to start seeing this more, as its not terribly difficult for roy to set up since he has so many options into it.

This might have been known to some, for those who havent quite thought this far yet, and like getting creative with your gameplay, this might help!
 
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#2
i like where youre going with this because ive been considering nuances like this for a while now and have come up short on several situations. though my general issue is that if they have good DI on the dtilt then dair spike is often out of the question if they are offstage unless youre thinking of very low percents which would require a run off drop zone FF DJ dair to get the spike and land back on stage.

Id like to explore more DI mixups though if youve got any in mind because i often find that many of roy's better combos work more consistently when the opponent either doesnt DI or DI's for roy.
 

G13_Flux

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#3
If they start to DI dtilt away consistently, then start fsmashing lol. if they DI that wrong, theyre even more screwed than they would have been with the set up from dtilt. those two moves work surprisingly well in conjunction with each other, and create another unreactable DI mixup.
 
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#4
This a some amazing insight. I've been trying to get a feel for options regarding DI mix ups. This will be great help with reading the DI and options coverage for closing stocks.

Any thoughts on DI mix ups off grabs near the ledge. Examples below:



 
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G13_Flux

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#5
Yes dthrow/fthrow mix ups are very very good. I didnt mention them in my OP cuz I was trying to focus on the lead in with a ken combo (being arguably the most highly sought after combo with roy). But I should probably update to include all the notable ones.

Roys fthrow and dthrow are both weight dependent, should it should be noted that the mix ups become a lot harder the heavier your opponent is. On characters like DDD, DK, and bowser, dthrow > fsmash isnt really a thing (maybe with absolutely perfect timing at some percents, but ill test this out a little later). ive gotten dthrow > bair to work but im not sure if thats due to a lack of good timing on opponents part or not. again ill test some of these things a bit later to provide some more accurate data on how they work on the heaviest characters. However, a roomate of mine is a ganon main, and my most common ken combo lead in on him is from a dthrow. dthrow > bair is very legit on ganon, and if you swap that for a fair instead (and he DIs wrong) then youve got yourself a kill around 80%!
 
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#6
Yes dthrow/fthrow mix ups are very very good. I didnt mention them in my OP cuz I was trying to focus on the lead in with a ken combo (being arguably the most highly sought after combo with roy). But I should probably update to include all the notable ones.

Roys fthrow and dthrow are both weight dependent, should it should be noted that the mix ups become a lot harder the heavier your opponent is. On characters like DDD, DK, and bowser, dthrow > fsmash isnt really a thing (maybe with absolutely perfect timing at some percents, but ill test this out a little later). ive gotten dthrow > bair to work but im not sure if thats due to a lack of good timing on opponents part or not. again ill test some of these things a bit later to provide some more accurate data on how they work on the heaviest characters. However, a roomate of mine is a ganon main, and my most common ken combo lead in on him is from a dthrow. dthrow > bair is very legit on ganon, and if you swap that for a fair instead (and he DIs wrong) then youve got yourself a kill around 80%!
i only get dthrow bair if my opponent DI's kinda poorly (i think if they DI up or DI for fthrow then bair's pretty guaranteed.) theres a very good ivy in my area and i only get dthrow bair on him with bad DI granted ivy is a light floaty. personally id say the faster fallers like falcon and the spacies are gonna be hard to get dthrow bair on. i actually prefer uthrow bair against them though it may not be guaranteed on falcon but i know that works on the spacies at somehwere around 30 to 90% though there'd be no reason to use uthrow bair on them til 60 to 70 since we got great chain grabs to abuse.
 

G13_Flux

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#7
i only get dthrow bair if my opponent DI's kinda poorly (i think if they DI up or DI for fthrow then bair's pretty guaranteed.) theres a very good ivy in my area and i only get dthrow bair on him with bad DI granted ivy is a light floaty. personally id say the faster fallers like falcon and the spacies are gonna be hard to get dthrow bair on. i actually prefer uthrow bair against them though it may not be guaranteed on falcon but i know that works on the spacies at somehwere around 30 to 90% though there'd be no reason to use uthrow bair on them til 60 to 70 since we got great chain grabs to abuse.
yeah the whole dthrow > bair thing completely relies on forcing them to DI wrong with the threat of fthrow follow ups. But the throw is so quick that you generally CAN get them to DI completely wrong, so its surprisingly reliable. With FFers the combo does work, but usually with an fsmash instead. im not actually sure how effective neutral DI is for them in terms of escaping roys throw mix ups, but that might be something I should test, since i think it might be optimal for FFers to keep themselves in tech chase situations instead of direct follow ups; however, that means you get a pretty free follow up from uthrow.
 
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#8
what kind of DI mixups can we get with dtilt cause obviously they want to DI away to avoid hard punishes from dtilt and its our best neutral game poke move so forcing opponents to rethink whether they actually want to DI for the dtilt or DI for a different move would be ideal. I dont know for sure if fsmash is that option because its not nearly as quick though not exactly react-able, but fsmash doesnt work in quite as many neutral game scenarios due to it being pretty punishable if we flat out whiff. Not that its exactly a bad i i just want more options to work with since dtilt is so important to so many aspects of roys game. any ideas?
 

G13_Flux

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#9
well dash attack technically gives you the reversed KB angle which would make for a good DI mixup, and it beats ASDI down on all character weights (including the tip, oddly enough), so its safe in some regards. its still got enough lag and start up as to where its not the best neutral tool though. Honestly, the odds of an opponent consistently DIing dtilt away are very slim. typically, your opponent is going to on the move, staying mobile in neutral. dtilt often pegs people out of a DD, where theyre not going to be able to DI away properly really. If they are to point where theyre able to DI dtilt away consistently, theyre probably not being mobile enough and getting hit by it too much. same goes for CCIng. if roy uses dtilt from a CC, odds are that the opponent isnt going to be able to hold away quickly enough.

even if they do somehow manage to hold away consistently, your granted with immensely better stage positioning, and have lots of other really effective tools at dealing with people coming down from the air. In my experience, getting consistent DI away on dtilt from neutral isnt really practical, especially from a DD.
 
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#10
well dash attack technically gives you the reversed KB angle which would make for a good DI mixup, and it beats ASDI down on all character weights (including the tip, oddly enough), so its safe in some regards. its still got enough lag and start up as to where its not the best neutral tool though. Honestly, the odds of an opponent consistently DIing dtilt away are very slim. typically, your opponent is going to on the move, staying mobile in neutral. dtilt often pegs people out of a DD, where theyre not going to be able to DI away properly really. If they are to point where theyre able to DI dtilt away consistently, theyre probably not being mobile enough and getting hit by it too much. same goes for CCIng. if roy uses dtilt from a CC, odds are that the opponent isnt going to be able to hold away quickly enough.

even if they do somehow manage to hold away consistently, your granted with immensely better stage positioning, and have lots of other really effective tools at dealing with people coming down from the air. In my experience, getting consistent DI away on dtilt from neutral isnt really practical, especially from a DD.
thats fair. and i definitely agree with you though the mindgame of an opponent fearing to DI dtilt correctly just sounds so satisfying. at that point they truly will have mentally lost the match and possibly the set.
 
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#11
even if they do somehow manage to hold away consistently, your granted with immensely better stage positioning, and have lots of other really effective tools at dealing with people coming down from the air. In my experience, getting consistent DI away on dtilt from neutral isnt really practical, especially from a DD.
I agree 100% with that statement. I'm not a top roy player but I do watch and rewatch top player matches every day. Its few and far between that DI Dtilt correctly and I think it's safe to say no one does it consistently, especially off a DD.
 
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