Delzethin Weighs in on Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's Newcomers

delzethin ultimate roster thoughts.jpg

Since Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's starting roster was revealed, plenty of prominent figures in the Smash community have been sharing their reactions to the lineup. Delzethin is no exception, as in his latest video, he weighs in on each of Ultimate's newcomers as well as the roster as a whole.


The video takes on a more opinionated tone than his usual fare, both in terms of individual newcomers and Ultimate's pre-release cycle as a whole. Delzethin notes that the later reveals felt a bit more underwhelming than the early ones - as if the development team didn't just slow down on the reveals, but came to a screeching halt.

It's not all doom and gloom, though. While he wasn't the most satisfied with the last couple of reveals for the base roster, Delzethin points out that, in hindsight, Piranha Plant was a pretty high note to end the final Smash Direct on - it's one of the most unique characters in the entire roster, and one that nobody could've seen coming. On top of that, while there's nothing left to speculate about the base roster, there's still five DLC characters we don't know about.

Author's Note: What are your thoughts on Ultimate's base roster? Who do you want to see as DLC? Let us know in the comments.
 
Blaise "Scribe" Camacho

Comments

#4
Hey I know how you feel Del...My Top three most wanted in Smash 4 were assist trophies and a stage boss respectively...chances for DLC then were shot before we even knew DLC was a thing.

However things can still look up in the future. While my most wanted still became an assist trophy, the other two made it in!
Some of my other wanted picks (Elma, Crash Bandicoot) still have a reasonable chance of coming in later as DLC. And when it comes to some characters (Isaac and Geno for example) perhaps things can still look up for them in the future, even outside of Smash.
 
#5
Hey I know how you feel Del...My Top three most wanted in Smash 4 were assist trophies and a stage boss respectively...chances for DLC then were shot before we even knew DLC was a thing..
If I may ask, which character was it you wanted that became a stage boss?
 
#9
Yeah, the reason Incineroar doesn't look right is because you've been completely closed minded about the idea since Day 1 while overglorifying other options, especially the ones that you PERSONALLY wanted the most.

Going to level with you, Delz. I have absolutely no sympathy for your disappointment.
I would if you actually bothered to give Incineroar a fair shot, but your attitude has ALWAYS been
"Eww no, why do people even entertain the idea, LOOK AT DIS DOG DAMMIT!!!"

You outright refused to feature Incineroar on your videos or even TRIED to look into how it can work. Just because "it has nothing unique".
And then you go for a video on a Fire Pokémon without any shot in Hell, Delphox. Because OMG SO UNIQUE UNLIKE INCINEROAR AMIRITE?!

Even post-reveal, where most have made a 180 on Incineroar due to actually being an interesting fighter unlike what they previously thought, you STILL want to discredit it because its "too similar to what we already have", when we have NO ONE who fights like Incineroar in Smash but Incineroar.

You have done nothing but ATTACK the idea and go out of your way to tear it down any chance you got while shoving Lycanroc down our throats because the dog was the one you personally wanted the most.

So yeah, you have every right to be disappointed....but you honestly have no one to blame but yourself for it all and actually deserve it.
Let Incineroar be a lesson to you to actually be open-minded instead of letting your personal bias cloud judgments.
 
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#10
Yeah, the reason Incineroar doesn't look right is because you've been completely closed minded about the idea since Day 1 while overglorifying other options, especially the ones that you PERSONALLY wanted the most.

Going to level with you, Delz. I have absolutely no sympathy for your disappointment.
I would if you actually bothered to give Incineroar a fair shot, but your attitude has ALWAYS been
"Eww no, why do people even entertain the idea, LOOK AT DIS DOG DAMMIT!!!"

You outright refused to feature Incineroar on your videos or even TRIED to look into how it can work. Just because "it has nothing unique".
And then you go for a video on a Fire Pokémon without any shot in Hell, Delphox. Because OMG SO UNIQUE UNLIKE INCINEROAR AMIRITE?!

Even post-reveal, where most have made a 180 on Incineroar due to actually being an interesting fighter unlike what they previously thought, you STILL want to discredit it because its "too similar to what we already have", when we have NO ONE who fights like Incineroar in Smash but Incineroar.

You have done nothing but ATTACK the idea and go out of your way to tear it down any chance you got while shoving Lycanroc down our throats because the dog was the one you personally wanted the most.

So yeah, you have every right to be disappointed. But you honestly have no one to blame but yourself for it all and actually deserve it.
Let Incineroar be a lesson to you to actually be open-minded instead of letting your personal bias cloud judgments.
You know you've messed up when you get GoldenYuiitusin angry...
Trust me, I've been there...
 
#11
Why is everybody so negative on Incineroar? It's getting kinda annoying...
-Obligatory shillmon for gen 8 over characters people actually wanted.
-Got in over whatever other flavor of the month gen 8 shillmon that people wanted.
-Deconfirmed the Grinch leak and confirmed that Veggiebin guy and his boring leak.
-Sakurai said he personally saved a slot for Tony the Tiger here instead of giving it to another ballot character.
-Confirmed the blatantly obvious thing that slots do in fact exist.
-A lot of people just never liked him.

Just a bit from what I've seen.
 
#12
-Obligatory shillmon for gen 8 over characters people actually wanted.
-Got in over whatever other flavor of the month gen 8 shillmon that people wanted.
-Deconfirmed the Grinch leak and confirmed that Veggiebin guy and his boring leak.
-Sakurai said he personally saved a slot for Tony the Tiger here instead of giving it to another ballot character.
-Confirmed the blatantly obvious thing that slots do in fact exist.
-A lot of people just never liked him.

Just a bit from what I've seen.
Don't forget that many were disappointed by the fact that Incineroar debunked the Grinch leak, meaning that their high expectations dropped lower than my subscriber growth count.
 
#15
Especially, if the rumors are true, and Steve from Minecraft actually gets in...
That would actually be hype though. Yeah Steve looks stupid and he's from a game with a cringey community (smash community is cringey too though tbh, just look at the reactions to Incineroar), but his moveset could be awesome. What if he had a move where he mined (kind of a money mechanic like RoA Shovel Knight or Slap City BCM) and then could upgrade sword attacks? Or they could make him a trapper with Lingering Potions of Harming and TNT. He could even have Link's Bow and Isabelle's Fishing Rod. I know a lot of people would be mad but if you focus on the design potential and not the character itself it's an awesome idea, that's the same reason I love Pirhana Plant so much
 
#16
That would actually be hype though. Yeah Steve looks stupid and he's from a game with a cringey community (smash community is cringey too though tbh, just look at the reactions to Incineroar), but his moveset could be awesome. What if he had a move where he mined (kind of a money mechanic like RoA Shovel Knight or Slap City BCM) and then could upgrade sword attacks? Or they could make him a trapper with Lingering Potions of Harming and TNT. He could even have Link's Bow and Isabelle's Fishing Rod. I know a lot of people would be mad but if you focus on the design potential and not the character itself it's an awesome idea, that's the same reason I love Pirhana Plant so much
I'd be hyped too... I have some legit nostalgia for Minecraft...
But let's just say that certain people like the Banjo fan base would be pretty upset
 
#17
I'd be hyped too... I have some legit nostalgia for Minecraft...
But let's just say that certain people like the Banjo fan base would be pretty upset
I have no ill will towards Minecraft, and I would be OK with Steve, I feel like Banjo is much more deserving. If Steve gets in, oh well. Maybe next time. If anything, it might even increase his chances for DLC or Smash 6. I also have no hate towards Incineroar, especially since he was my starter twice. (Even if Decidueye would've been cooler.)
 
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#20
Tbqh, not really interested in Incineroar because been going with fire starters since gen one, and post gen three they got less interesting until Delphox at least. Same with Incineroar. Never really got the hype for it, but I’ll give him a shot. Lab him out and see what he can do. Judging by his incredibly slow movement and awful recovery, I’m not sure how far he can get based on initial impressions though.
 
#24
I see a lot of parallels between Incineroar and Palutena:

-Both were heavily expected in general speculation and due to leaks.
-Both are characters who have a large emphasis on their presentation and personality.
-Both bring a new thematic element (a staff user and wrestler, respectively), but fail to really do much new in regards to gameplay with it.
-Both had the misfortune of being announced at a time when many were expecting fan favourites and thusly received backlash for not being said fan favourites.
-Both started up decisions of their series being "overrepresented".
-Both were a group that received a much larger roster presence through their games' newcomer pool: females for Palutena and villains for Incineroar (I guess he's technically not a villain, but he is a heel and an antagonist for Charizard in I Choose You!).
-Both have a lot of... interesting fanart.

This isn't really to knock anyone's opinions on other characters, but this is just something I noticed.
 
#25
I echo many of his opinions, especially in regards to the extreme disappointment that is my least favourite Pokemon (who people like to exaggerate the uniqueness of) and Mr obvious Ken. And I especially especially Agree with his opinion on leaks, I'm so tired of them, they sucked the life out of the speculation period. The Smash community became an echo chamber and anyone who spoke outside of it was shunned for it.

Ridley and K Rool are hype though but I wish Ridley wasn't rumoured as much as he was. He was who I wanted most who actually got in. But it wasn't the surprise it should've been.



Tldr: agree with video, and people are allowed to be upset over certain choices
 
#26
I'm honestly not very optimistic about Incineroar in this game.

He's got decent kill power sure, but he's pretty slow and cumbersome and his recovery is one of the worst in the game IMO. No projectile means he'll have to approach at all times which is not a very good thing considering his speed. He could use his Darkest Lariat and Side B to get in sometimes but overall he'll still struggle against a lot of speedy characters with projectiles which includes a lot of Top/High tier characters.

I'd like to say otherwise seeing as I was TeamLitten during the Sun/Moon days but the wrestling cat looks to be at best bottom of mid tier.
 
#27
I thought it was known to be pretty easy to do that
To be fair, I've only been here for about two months, and before this, I only saw him angry like once, because I went on a pretty big rant on the general discussion thread regarding character bias... lol (I was so naive then...)
 
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#28
As a Pokemon fan, I'm pretty biased in saying that I love Incineroar's inclusion in the game. Sure, he isn't looking like a top tier character, but he looks like a fun character to play and for that reason I'll try him out. And I want to annoy my friends with his constant taunting
 
#29
I'm honestly not very optimistic about Incineroar in this game.

He's got decent kill power sure, but he's pretty slow and cumbersome and his recovery is one of the worst in the game IMO. No projectile means he'll have to approach at all times which is not a very good thing considering his speed. He could use his Darkest Lariat and Side B to get in sometimes but overall he'll still struggle against a lot of speedy characters with projectiles which includes a lot of Top/High tier characters.

I'd like to say otherwise seeing as I was TeamLitten during the Sun/Moon days but the wrestling cat looks to be at best bottom of mid tier.
So I'm not the only one thinking this. His neutral looks to be absolute trash. Only able to do anything with aerials, and even then it's questionable what he can do with them. Not sure about his aerial drift, aerial acceleration, and max air speed, but judging by his awful, awful recovery, I doubt he can do much to heckle with aerials. He's got all the qualities of a bottom tier character. He has too many exploitable problems.
 
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#30
I'm honestly not very optimistic about Incineroar in this game.

He's got decent kill power sure, but he's pretty slow and cumbersome and his recovery is one of the worst in the game IMO. No projectile means he'll have to approach at all times which is not a very good thing considering his speed. He could use his Darkest Lariat and Side B to get in sometimes but overall he'll still struggle against a lot of speedy characters with projectiles which includes a lot of Top/High tier characters.

I'd like to say otherwise seeing as I was TeamLitten during the Sun/Moon days but the wrestling cat looks to be at best bottom of mid tier.
From what I understand, most of Incineroar's gameplan will be largely based around his absolutely bonkers counter. Poor mobility and recovery doesn't matter much if all you need is a well-timed counter and Smash attack to take a stock. As such, I imagine Incineroar will get some decent placement on the tier list early in the meta-game, but people will slowly learn the match-up and avoid easy counter opportunities. Alternatively, his counter will just get nerfed. After either of these things happen, his lack of approach options and poor recovery will catch up with him and he'll settle into low tier.

Granted, I could be wrong. I know his up-tilt is quite good, so he's got a combo-tool at least. The big issue will then be developing a semi-reliable approach.
 
#31
From what I understand, most of Incineroar's gameplan will be largely based around his absolutely bonkers counter. Poor mobility and recovery doesn't matter much if all you need is a well-timed counter and Smash attack to take a stock. As such, I imagine Incineroar will get some decent placement on the tier list early in the meta-game, but people will slowly learn the match-up and avoid easy counter opportunities. Alternatively, his counter will just get nerfed. After either of these things happen, his lack of approach options and poor recovery will catch up with him and he'll settle into low tier.

Granted, I could be wrong. I know his up-tilt is quite good, so he's got a combo-tool at least. The big issue will then be developing a semi-reliable approach.
The problem with this is you'll have Incineroars constantly fishing for counters, which are easily punished with grabs first of all and people can also just bait them out like any other counter, on top of that even if he's successful in setting up his counter, now he'll have to get a good read with a grab or smash attack to take advantage of it since it's only good for the next hit only, he can't hit confirm into a kill move he has to hit with the kill move straight up, once again having players fish for attacks which may not always work, especially against smart opponents.

He'll be decent in team battles for sure since, for example the teammate can set up Incineroar's Revenge and then confirm into Incineroar's next attack for the kill. But for 1v1 play he won't be able to set himself up very easily. It just sort of comes across as a gimmicky counter honestly. A good gimmick when it works but it most likely won't always work.

That said for approaches he does still have some tools. Darkest Lariat out prioritizes a lot of things and can move forward (we can see him in his trailer block a Hadouken then punish Ryu immediately after) also like Ridley and Ganondorf having a command grab that juts him forward slightly can be effective especially when conditioning for shields with other moves. Although I don't think they'll be that great for approaching since they only cover so much distance overall.
 
#32
I personally agree about this game not having the most hype newcomers (I at least got Isabelle) but I find it hard to be underwhelmed by the roster.

I see a lot of parallels between Incineroar and Palutena:

-Both were heavily expected in general speculation and due to leaks.
-Both are characters who have a large emphasis on their presentation and personality.
-Both bring a new thematic element (a staff user and wrestler, respectively), but fail to really do much new in regards to gameplay with it.
-Both had the misfortune of being announced at a time when many were expecting fan favourites and thusly received backlash for not being said fan favourites.
-Both started up decisions of their series being "overrepresented".
-Both were a group that received a much larger roster presence through their games' newcomer pool: females for Palutena and villains for Incineroar (I guess he's technically not a villain, but he is a heel and an antagonist for Charizard in I Choose You!).
-Both have a lot of... interesting fanart.

This isn't really to knock anyone's opinions on other characters, but this is just something I noticed.
Interesting. Though I'd argue both bring more than their thematic elements.
 
#35
...Ya know, it's kinda of funny that the guy whose number 1 pick (or atleast one of it's top pick) is a dog, also heavily dislike the character that got in who is a cat.

I don't know, maybe I'm reading too much into those things, but I thought it was funny to point out.

Beside that, yeah, I really don't like the :ultincineroar: rant part, for alot of reasons I won't go all over here since others have already gave their thoughts on it, which I agree for the most part. This is coming from someone who is not even a big fan of the cat as others are on this forum, and I would have been welcome of Lycanroc if he got in (even though his design is still boring as all heck to me), but the rant part? Hmmm, I really didn't like it at all , I am not saying you can't be dissapointed by Inci inclusion or the final roster in general - the Grinch """"""LEAK""""""" certainly didn't help at all - but come on, give more point to the cat that isn't a backhanded compliment Del, you are really downplaying every point about him and his fanbase.
 
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#36

Since Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's starting roster was revealed, plenty of prominent figures in the Smash community have been sharing their reactions to the lineup. Delzethin is no exception, as in his latest video, he weighs in on each of Ultimate's newcomers as well as the roster as a whole.


The video takes on a more opinionated tone than his usual fare, both in terms of individual newcomers and Ultimate's pre-release cycle as a whole. Delzethin notes that the later reveals felt a bit more underwhelming than the early ones - as if the development team didn't just slow down on the reveals, but came to a screeching halt.

It's not all doom and gloom, though. While he wasn't the most satisfied with the last couple of reveals for the base roster, Delzethin points out that, in hindsight, Piranha Plant was a pretty high note to end the final Smash Direct on - it's one of the most unique characters in the entire roster, and one that nobody could've seen coming. On top of that, while there's nothing left to speculate about the base roster, there's still five DLC characters we don't know about.

Author's Note: What are your thoughts on Ultimate's base roster? Who do you want to see as DLC? Let us know in the comments.
Nice vid! ^V^
 
#38
Ya know a Pokémon who really could’ve felt hype (at least in my opinion)? Sneasel, now hear me out: Ice and Dark, lots of speed (something we all know is pretty much key to being high tier), a decent move pool, would’ve been unexpected like piranha plant (which would give a lot of people more positive views than a leaked character), and let’s face it: gen 2 needs a better rep that wasn’t made entirely for the purpose of being a joke (although I do enjoy Pichu, it felt like the gen 2 rep could’ve been better)
 
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