Delzethin Tackles the Controversy Surrounding Bayonetta and Cloud

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Since their release, Bayonetta and Cloud have both maintained a dominant position in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U's metagame. Bayonetta's pre-patch combo game led to many heated debates as to whether she should be banned, and even after her nerfs, she's remained strong enough to nab the number one spot on the 4BR's tier list. Cloud, while not quite as dominant in singles, has maintained a high tier placement, strong matchup spread and low execution barrier that make him a go-to counterpick in low-level play, and much like Bayonetta in singles, proposals to ban Cloud in doubles have popped up from time to time.

With all of this in mind, Delzethin has taken a short break from moveset speculation to look a bit deeper into this issue. After providing a brief bit of history behind the controversy, he examines not just the characters themselves, but how the discourse surrounding them is shaped by the way the Smash community communicates.

 
Blaise "Scribe" Camacho

Comments

#2
I'm glad this guy can take a neutral, analytical approach to the situation. And he's absolutely right - sensationalist memes drown out all other discussions about the characters, especially the productive ones.

But on the whole, I think things are looking up ever since Ally took EVO 2017 with Mario. Big tournaments with tons of publicity and top-level players winning with characters that aren't Cloud or Bayonetta may eventually clean up the "characters carry players" stereotype.
 
#3
I'm glad this guy can take a neutral, analytical approach to the situation. And he's absolutely right - sensationalist memes drown out all other discussions about the characters, especially the productive ones.

But on the whole, I think things are looking up ever since Ally took EVO 2017 with Mario. Big tournaments with tons of publicity and top-level players winning with characters that aren't Cloud or Bayonetta may eventually clean up the "characters carry players" stereotype.
Ally didn't win Evo 2017, he won 2016. Salem won this year with Bayo.
 
#4
Bayonetta and Cloud combined make up roughly 20% of PGR top 8s this season. Same for Top 16. If that helps for comparison.
I sure hope it's just the fear factor that's pushing them further into the top. Cause right now they bypass half the rules of the game.

But wait. Add Diddy Kong and it does go to 30%.
Well hey, at least it's 3 characters and not 1
 
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#5
Yeah, mainly because we've been so shocked by their unusual playstyles that we forget to move past the blind thunder, and illuminate the skies once again with their weaknesses and exploit their issues.
 
#6
from what I've gathered, it feels like a lot of the problems tend to stem from players who are quick to jump on social media and vent their salt... maybe it was because I was particularly oblivious until I was forced to set up a Facebook account to keep in touch with players in my area (the Smashboards thread back then seldom got much activity, so I was out of the loop more often than not)... but because of where i went to find players, I had the whole "git gud" mockery thrown at me to the point where I grew reluctant to seek help, and instead trained mostly by myself.

bear in mind, though, this was when I played Project M, where not only did balance patches change things in less-than-subtle ways, but the chat I went to (a xat called DabessDI) seldom had players interested in giving less skilled players some pointers for improvement.

nowadays, I'm a lot more receptive to seeking advice, since players are not as protective of their strategies anymore... but the instillment of adapting instead of waiting for a patch still stuck, and I feel I'm a more capable player for it... it allows me to think a bit outside the box, and while I still have my shortcomings, I'm more able to discover something than if i got salty and vented on Facebook.

and honestly, if i were to say something about present day Smash 4 players, it's the fact that the relatively frequent balance patches up until this point have never caused them to come to this realization at all... instead, the discussion changes from "How do we finally take this character down?" to "when are the devs going to release the next much needed patch?"

now there's not going to be any more patches... but by this point with the Nintendo Switch being as prevalent as it is, I doubt that self-discovery will ever happen... and that's a damn shame.
 
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#7
I think social media and patch culture do play a part in people complaining or being quick to shout hate for something these days more than it used to be.
 
#8
The controversy could be stemmed from skill ceiling. Think of it this way; Bayo and Cloud are often considered to be easy characters to play, right?

It's possible that since so many Cloud and Bayo players exist, and top players just so happen to play them, that bias is formed.

I personally think that Bayo isn't the best character in the game. It's just that the meta always changes, and people need to adjust to the constant change, and make counterplay, of sorts.

So, no. Bayo doesn't need a ban, and Cloud doesn't need a ban in Doubles. IMO, at least.
 
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#10
I personally think Bayo and Cloud's existence in smash 4 is fine and they should not be banned. Yes, I do believe that they are kind of broken because their combo and air game is a pain to deal with, but IMO, it all comes down to who can play the most intuitive and match control. A person fighting Bayo/Cloud must go into battle with a strategy and must stay on the aggression for a majority of the match. Also, never underestimate a player who can play any character effectively, as it could lead to an embarrassing defeat.
 
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#11
Whether Bayo or Cloud should be banned is not my main concern because while I already found Smash 4 to be a little uninteresting to watch competitively, now I really get bored.

The moment I saw that anti-climatic end to EVO 2017, where Bayo won doing the same combo I see everyone do online, that's when the magic was gone.

When I watch Melee, I see the craziest things. I never knew the game could be played as fast and as precise. They're always mixing it up and I have, literally, popped from my seat with excitement and awe.

And then I see Zero get defeated by the combo that everyone does online. Yeah, Salem had to anticipate the DI, but that's just a matter of not rushing.

I found it boring. I lost interest in Smash 4 that day. I don't even like to watch local stuff with more variety because they're just going to hit that Bayo wall eventually.

Once someone figures out a way to get around Bayo, cool. Until then, I'd much rather watch Melee.
 
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