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DeLux goes to the lab

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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I'm going to post random tidbits of information that I find through testing in my quest to make ICs go even with MK -

Test 2:
Litmus test: If it's more disjointed than Marth's Fair, it probably can't be pivot grabbed. If it's less disjointed, it probably can be pivot grabbed assuming horizontal orientation

Vertically the ICs grab range doesn't extends about as high as the top of their head/hood



Fun tidbit: The SH Ice Shot jump onto ledges is about 4 frames faster than an Full Hop Air Dodge onto the Battlefield platform. If you FH the Ice Shot jump, there is no speed advantage compared to FH Air Dodge. The frame advantage on hit for the Ice Shot varies by percent, character, and some spacing orientation, but typically speaking you'll be AT LEAST 10 frame disadvantaged assuming you do the SH from Neutral. The frame advantage on shield (especially powershield) is even worse.

Food for thought
 

DeLux

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Testing - "MK SH Fair is not safe on shield"- myth

My previous MU experience has told me that if an MK SH Fairs my shield, I can dash grab it out of shield drop. However, I've been noticing this tactic has been working less and less as time goes on, so I thought I'd do some investigation.

Based on frame testing, a buffered MK SH Fair (meaning from ground you buffer the fair out of the jump squat of the short hop) without any fast falls is -16 on shield meaning it's -9 on shield drop in terms of frame advantage. Assuming you buffer a dash grab out of shield drop, that means in theory you are able to both shield grab a supremely poorly spaced SH Fair on shield, and also buffered dash grab a not very well spaced SH Fair as well

HOWEVER, MK's Fair has an extremely early auto cancel window (approximately 8 frames after the hitlag ends) and according to the MK frame data chart if done correctly that makes it -9 on shield. This means that if the MK is ******** (or going for some sort of crossover) you'd be able to shield grab them. This does unfortunately remove the option to dash grab out of shield since that puts frame advantage on shield drop at -2. Meaning MK would have 6 frames to say buffer a frame 5 invincible grounded shuttle loop or stuff your grab attempt with a f/dtilt or even front side of dsmash.

Based on my frame testing, let's say you made the hard read and frame perfect got the MK to miss the 3rd hit of fair to circumvent the need for shield drop and also any shield push, from a standstill you are about -4 frames on getting in to dash grab MK meaning spot dodge, froll, and tilts are viable. However, if you have a running start it SEEMS to be possible to grab fair even if perfectly auto cancelled. The testing on that was difficult to produce since I only have so many hands. The notion of being frame perfect in something like this though in reality is far fetched to say the least

Based on frame data, if you spot dodge an autocancelled fair you are at a frame disadvantage. Obviously if you roll an auto cancelled SH Fair you are at a frame disadvantage as well.

Conclusion:

A quality executed MK SH Fair is fairly safe against IC defensive options. The MK MUST make a mistake for it to be grabbed on hard read. The real only positive is that after a SH Fair, the MK is guaranteed to land before the next option, so in order to capitalize you'd have to make a second read for a punish
 

Rubberbandman

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Thank you, I tested it out a bit and saw that MK was actually fairly safe when using it. Thanks for the confirm on it.
2 Things I want:
1. Did you ever test the rising Ice Shot cancel's priority that I proposed some time back?
2. MK (Perfect) Spaced Dair on shield
 

DeLux

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Can you clarify the rising ice shot thing for me please?
 

DeLux

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I've actually done quite a bit of testing on that exact thing already, but I'm going to post a little bit every couple of few days depending on how much testing I have and how much discussion I get for each topic

Some tentative future topics I've already done some preliminary testing on:

- Punishing grounded shuttle loop on shield
- Punishing Mach Tornado with platform cancel grab
- Landing Nair frame advantage
- Landing Bair frame advantage
- Ice Shot as a platform jumping option as opposed to FH Air dodge
- detailed solo dthrow testing
 

dettadeus

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Only the best discussions happen in the Icies boards.

The real question is why an MK would run up and Fair your shield.

I could potentially help with heavy frame data testing since I have Dolphin working, seeing as you mentioned "The testing on that was difficult to produce since I only have so many hands."
 

DeLux

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They would do it because it's safe shield pressure?

And I can handle the testing on things nbd thanks though
 

dettadeus

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It's only safe if they don't mess up and you react quickly enough or read it. I don't think I've ever seen an MK Fair into Icies' shield in any MK vs Icies match I've watched. Most just opt to camp with Dair (which IIRC you can punish for hitting your shield with Uair OoS?) or hang back on the SV platform.

Just a random question since this is the LuxLab, do you have frame data on the Popo PC + Nana Uair trick? Like what the frame window is, what frames you make which inputs, etc? Kind of a pointless tidbit but it might be helpful in getting it down more consistently (I only have like, 10% consistency with it when I'm actually trying to do it).
 

DeLux

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Did you just not read my entire posting test? >_>
You can't react quickly enough to read it by frame data

Fair is a pretty common MK spacing tool
Especially during momentum shift situations MK's Fair leads to a lot of follow up opportunities on Nana hit confirm

SH Fair has been used in conjunction with FH Fair as a crossup now for a long time in the metagame
 

Rubberbandman

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I like how Lux made a post clearly saying "It's relatively safe on block, here's why" and dettadeus counters by saying "No its not, else they would use it". The reason it has been such a thing is because we conditioned MK's into saying and thinking such things, so they opt out of using it altogether to remove a considered "unsafe" option.

I would go into the thinking of saying its neutral on block because of the fact that even if we block it, we have enough advantage that we can stop blocking to apply pressure. Then again, it isn't truly neutral (0 on block) so I'd stray away from making it more confusing.
 

DeLux

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Just so it's noted, I've confirmed that you're able to grab it if you have a running start without shielding

Obviously all the MK has to do at that point is to stop retreating so you run into it and/or have to shield, but it's something to work with I guess

Doing it from a standstill though is not as viable
 

C.J.

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Can you check Marth's fair and uair on shield/what IC can do vs it please?

:phone:
 

DeLux

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Probably not at the moment.

Partly because I was told that Marth is much more developed than ICs due to an assortment of players, so I'm sure you guys could get the info on that one on your own :p

Mostly because I'm focusing my efforts on MK at the moment so I might get to Marth first after I go through other characters ICs probably outright lose to since I personally have problems against the character for a variety of reasons. But that means you'll have to wait behind Zamus, Toon Link, Wolf, Peach, Rob, and Snake probably in that order. Then I'll start looking at the evens: Marth, Wario, Diddy, etc.
 

Gadiel_VaStar

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I think I'm gonna go ham w/ ICs this year. Everytime I think of dropping them completely, they keep calling my name! GJ w/ all the hardwork your putting in Delux, can't wait to see all the results.
 

B0NK

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First time seeing this thread, I figured f-air was safer than believed when I tested it by simply having an MK fair my shield over and over lol

I'm craving dat SoPo walking CG data though since E-alert's (iirc) running SoPo CG thread.
 

Crackle

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Question: can pivot grab work despite any of mks aerials whilst eating the damage?

Example: shorthop fair, or low dair

I am fairly sure vinnie has done these before
 

DeLux

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Litmus test: If it's more disjointed than Marth's Fair, it probably can't be pivot grabbed. If it's less disjointed, it probably can be pivot grabbed assuming horizontal orientation

Vertically the ICs grab range doesn't extends about as high as the top of their head/hood



Fun tidbit: The SH Ice Shot jump onto ledges is about 4 frames faster than an Full Hop Air Dodge onto the Battlefield platform. If you FH the Ice Shot jump, there is no speed advantage compared to FH Air Dodge. The frame advantage on hit for the Ice Shot varies by percent, character, and some spacing orientation, but typically speaking you'll be AT LEAST 10 frame disadvantaged assuming you do the SH from Neutral. The frame advantage on shield (especially powershield) is even worse.

Food for thought
 

Crackle

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Well let me know if you ever test it. Would be nice to know when it works.
 

DeLux

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I'm not sure what exactly you're asking for to test. You can grab armor pretty much anything (which is what happens when you "grab whilst taking damage" ) as long as they are within your grab range since that's a function of time.
 

Crackle

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Well the pivot grab range I guess is what I am really after. Mk's fair at max range is probably too long but there probably is a large spectrum of pivot grabbable punishes even in the case of fullhop fair.
 

DeLux

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Based on my limited hitbox/hurtbox viewing knowledge, it's almost too close in disjoint to really tell the difference in hitbox viewing between Marth's Fair and ICs Pivot grab horizontal disjoint. If you want the specific IGU number I can look that up as well (I remember it being like .1 IGUs in ICs favor) but you might go look at how big MK's longest hit of Fair is in disjoint compared to Marth's Fair. I'm not sure which hitbox is the longest (probably the 3rd) but you could do that for every aerial in the game as a relative comparison
 
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