Deleted

[Magus420]

I was under the impression that in order to gain any sort of gain in the Y direction, it was necessary to mash the stick in that same direction. In this case we would want to mash the stick down to provide a "SDI" downwards to let us live. Why does C-sticking to the left or right have any effect in the Y direction. Is it because the C-stick will temporarily override the down direction on the control stick? And when you release the C-stick the game will read the down on the control stick as a "SDI" input? If that's the case then why does c-stick up work? Wouldn't the game read first an input of a SDI up and then down resulting in no gain in the y direction?

I actually brought up that particular issue in my post. If the supposed smash air control like effect does exist there, and also when it's read the c-stick's position completely overrides the control stick's for this purpose, then that wouldn't be what makes you survive because of just that: when doing the down + c-stick up the 2 movements should both cancel each other out. If the game were to instead combine both positions into one input for the purpose of 'SDI', however, it could make each of those cases work (the down + c-stick up is read as a neutral Y position when combined then full down on release for SDI input instead of full up then full down).

Now I'm not at all suggesting that's really how it does read the inputs as it's probably unlikely, but more that it's the only way I can think of that it can work if you're living due to some kind of smash air control while also following each of the scenarios. If none of that is the case at all, then that only really leaves the early fastfall effect explanation from the tapping down since that would not be affected by a smash up occurring before the smash down when using down and c-stick up.

The 'fastfall' effect thing actually sounds more likely to me given the examples, but I'm just putting some other ideas out there if that isn't the case. It's the only alternative explanation I can think of that can follow those otherwise odd set of results if that weren't true.

Why does this not work? Is it because the dair performed will not be inputted as a "stick mash" since you are already holding in down?

Yeah. It'd be continually read as full down being held since when you were launched, and it would never be smashed to cause whatever it is tapping down does to make you survive longer.

 

[Fizzi]

I did the DK test, and held in down on the control stick for DI and did not release it. Did a back air with the c-stick without putting it back in the neutral position and lived. This test seems to disprove the "SDI" theory though there may be something I am missing. There's a possibility that the air "SDI" can only be achieved during the phase before doing an aerial, though I doubt it.

The fast fall effect definitely seems important for living over the top, the test with DK does seem to prove that. That said, I agree that doing an aerial is better than air dodging in seemingly all cases presuming all characters have an aerial that is faster than air dodging. It is important, however, to determine exactly when our air control comes back. Is it when the aerial comes out? Is it when the aerial finishes? Does it really come back? Answering this is important to decide which aerial is actually optimal. Is it the aerial that has the least frames from startup to end or s it the aerial that starts up the fastest? Ulevo, I realize that you've mentioned both startup time and performance time are important, but it's important to know which is more important.

 

[Big O]

Well after testing some more I have come to the conclusion that aerials do not even give you your "aerial influence" back and that fast falling is the cause for surviving star KO's. To come to these conclusions I did three different tests.

The first test was using DK's down tilt on a Yoshi with 290% in the middle of final destination. I pick Yoshi because he has excellent air speed so if he regained "aerial influence" by using an aerial it would be the most obvious with someone like Yoshi or Wario. Without DI'ing or smash DI'ing the hit Yoshi just barely survives by merely holding towards the stage. After using Fox's blaster to shoot DK until it was fully diminished and positioning Fox on the edge (either side it doesn't matter) if you shoot Yoshi once it will still say 290% but it will really be 290.9 something percent. After DK suicides, down tilting again just barely KO's Yoshi when only holding toward the stage. After making sure Yoshi is at 290.9% again if you try using any aerial to regain "aerial influence" Yoshi still dies. His uair, bair, and fair all do nothing. Yoshi regains "control" earlier by using his fast aerials but ultimately he had the same exact "aerial influence" as before. If there was a difference between doing nothing and using an aerial in this case it is extremely insignificant because the down tilt is a very weak move that barely gets stronger with more % and it was not even a 1% difference.

The second test used two Luigi's in a large custom stage. I built the stage by basically filling the bottom row and the far right column with platforms you can fast fall through (it might help visually to fill every other space on the vertical column). Basically you set one Luigi to 70-80 something percent and shoryuken him with the columns as a reference point. The first time you do it notice how high the platform he falls on is and when he regains movement. The second time try to fair out of hitstun and then try to move backwards. When moving backwards in the air Luigi has a different (more noticable) animation than when he moves forward. You will notice that Luigi goes through the "moving backwards" animation but doesn't move an inch (to the side. He still moves up of course) before he reaches the top (the exact same time he moves without fairing out of hitstun).

The last test involved Luigi shoryukening (awesome verb) Wolf, Lucario, and Link. Wolf is unique in that he barely has a fast fall. Link is one of a few characters whose fast falls faster than characters who normally fall faster than him (more confusing when read aloud lol). Lucario is just cool and has a dair that normally negates fast falls. When you shoryuken Link at 95% in training mode (lower in group brawl) he barely dies. When you shoryuken Link at up to 114% (set it lower to make it easier to time and still show the point) and input a fast falling aerial by either csticking a dair without holding down, csticking any aerial other then dair while holding down, or by doing an aerial and mashing down during or after the aerial. Link survives and falls like a brick. The difference is so noticable with Link that he can finish the aerial well before he starts falling so buffering a fast fall is not an issue. With Wolf his fast fall is so bad that it barely helps him live 1 or 2 % longer when fast falling an aerial to help survive. When Lucario gets shoryukened you will notice at around 80% or so (he should finish his dair before he stops falling) when u cstick a dair without holding hown that he does not go as high as usual and that when he is falling back down he is fast falling. If you just hold down and press a to dair nothing happens and he does not fast fall. If it were really "aerial influence" being regained then why wouldn't holding down while dairing work? If you play around with the different ways you can fast fall, you notice all the inputs you make survive star KO's are the same inputs to fast fall an aerial. Also things like start up time and cooldown have no effect on the ability of fast falling it to save you from star KO's. When you fast fall horizontal KO moves you will notice a downwards "bending" of your trajectory. When you cstick an up air without holding down or up nothing happens (no bending upwards lol) so it also is not the cause of "aerial influence" which by know I hope you realize you cannot get back until you would have started tumbling anyways.

Thanks to those of you who actually tried and will try to test my claims through my tests and maybe some of your own methods instead of outright denying it due to its "impossibility" in the same way noobs denied that aerial + airdodge > airdodge + aerial without trying it for themselves. I am sure these claims will be proven and accepted with your help. The SDI without hitlag theory sounds interesting though. It might be worth looking into. Everything kinda falls into place with my theory though since the faster fast falls cause more effective momentum shifts (if you think it is because Link has much better aerial DI than Wolf...) but it is an interesting way of looking at it.

 

[infomon]

Wow, Big O. Congratulations on your rigour and proficiency. Your tests were IMO brilliant; using Fox's lasers to do minimal damage, using Luigi's distinct backwards-falling animation, and noticing Link's obvious fastfalling-ness. Brilliant, IMO.

I tried most of your tests. At the end of the day, I agree with some of your claims, but I'm not sure you disagree with this thread in a very substantial way. Let me explain.

Well after testing some more I have come to the conclusion that aerials do not even give you your "aerial influence" back and that fast falling is the cause for surviving star KO's.

My conclusion, from your tests (and maybe common knowledge, lol) is that "Aerial influence" has two components: horizontal and vertical. Horizontally, aerial influence is quite dynamic. But vertically, you're either fastfalling or you're not. That's all there is to vertical aerial influence.

From playing around with your experiment of shoryukening (great word btw ) Link with Luigi on a big custom stage, I have concluded the following. You can fastfall before reaching the apex of your vertical trajectory, so that's totally cool, and you're right that this is the only thing that will save you from vertical death. Earlier in this thread I had asked what it would mean, to fastfall while travelling upwards. Your test shows that it means you diminish your upwards momentum, thus reaching the apex at a lower height, and you will fastfall your way down (that is, you will accelerate downwards until your fastfall speed and there's nothing you can do about it at that point (except jump or something to stop fastfalling)). Awesomesauce.

Furthermore, as your example demonstrates, you can only do this early fastfall if you used an aerial (or airdodge lol). Aerial is strictly superior to airdodge since you can't fastfall an airdodge until it's over, but you can fastfall the aerial during its execution. So this just solidifies why the OP is right.

Even further, I think Ulevo is right that some aspect of the aerial "start up time" matters. At the very least, Sonic can survive a vertical-KO shoryuken by fastfalling his Nair, where his Dair will lead to his death no matter what. This might just be because his Dair has special momentum properties, so you're explicitly not allowed to fastfall it. (It automatically fastfalls instead.. but too late to save you.) But it's possible that many aerials have a lagtime before they let you fastfall. This needs more testing.

I also tested with Sonic, the rumour that his up-B allows him to survive absurdly high vertical KOs.... but this just doesn't seem to work, as a matter of fact. If you fastfall an aerial to avoid the ceiling, then you can survive without the up-B; and if you don't fastfall an aerial, or you fastfall it too late, you can spring up but you'll still die. I've done this a number of times now, where I died after using a spring above the level, while the spring falls a great distance to hit Luigi in the face

One more thing... In your first test (DK's Dtilt killing Yoshi), I got the same results. I'm not convinced by the conclusion of yours, though, that this proves the horizontal aerial influence can't save Yoshi. I don't have the mental energy to work on this problem though atm. In your second test I was actually never able to get Luigi to have time to drift backwards before reaching the apex of his jump, so *shrug*

 

[Ulevo]

I haven't read through most of the big walls of text by you guys because to be quite honest, despite being good theorys (I glanced at them), I'm lazy.

Anyway, I do have an apology to make. Big O was correct. At least on some of the things. Why he is right still doesn't actually make total sense to me, because as I previously stated, you shouldn't be able to fast fall until the apex is reached. However, during your trajectory, you are able to do this early with the use of aerials.

I tested this by attempting to use Dairs in order to help myself live through simply holding down and using the C Stick and A. I would die each time I attempted this during any percent I would normally die. However, when I jammed Down + A at the same time during a specific part of my trajectory, I lived. This can only be due to what Big O is claiming. Whether or not it's actually fast falling is a bit technical, but he is still correct.

This fact however does not help you for horizontal recovery at all. You will still die whether or not you "fast fall" the aerial. And I believe Big O claimed this too, but aerials only help you horizontally because they allow you to jump sooner.

I let my personal experience and bias get in the way of my judgement, and that made me ignorant. Which was exactly the accusation I made repeatedly in this thread. More so because I'm lazy, but no johns. For that, you have my sincere apologies.

EDIT: For the record. you certainly took an elaborate and less simplistic way of testing.

 

[J4pu]

D*mn, you guys deserve a prize or something for creating the most intense, researched, theoretical, and anti-noob-friendly thread I have ever read.

Good work though, as I am able to understand about 95% of the stuff.

PS, it isn't anti-noob because of poor explanations, just because of the advanced physics that are being looked into.

 

[Ulevo]

I updated the opening post for the information that has been compiled.

If it needs more clarity right now, let me know. My head's not on straight at the moment.

 

[infomon]

Heh, no problem Ulevo, and sorry for the wall of texts I have contributed to this mess
Your previous apology was in good taste btw. Anyway glad we're figuring this stuff out.

time to read the updates....

Edit: The OP is better. There are still some technicalities. ex:

1) The faster the aerial used on start up frame the better.

This is true if you're trying to avoid the top blast-line; the sooner you can fastfall the better. But if you're approaching the stage's side boundary, you're best using the aerial that ends the soonest.

Actually there are rare cases where this is more complicated... if you're headed a little bit higher than the horizontal, you don't want to fastfall so that you keep as much of a diagonal trajectory as possible -- like why you'd DI up -- so you just need the aerial that ends the soonest to help avoid the blast-line. But if you're sent to the horizontal and slightly below, you do want to fastfall to move your trajectory along the diagonal. Assuming you can actually recover from way over there :/ So in this case you do care about both the start-up time and time-to-finish of the aerial.

But that's getting very technical, and would only matter for very rare DI cases, if any. I'm not sure if there's an easy way to explain this without more walls-of-text :-)

 

[Big O]

"In your second test I was actually never able to get Luigi to have time to drift backwards before reaching the apex of his jump, so *shrug*"

Well if what you meant is Luigi actually moving as opposed to pretending he is going backwards then yeah that was the point of the test. If you mean you could not see Luigi's "moving backwards" animation before actually moving then either increase the damage (since training mode requires more damage for the same knockback/hitsun and you tried it there instead of group brawl) or try special brawl slow mode to make the timing easier.


"I let my personal experience and bias get in the way of my judgement, and that made me ignorant. Which was exactly the accusation I made repeatedly in this thread. More so because I'm lazy, but no johns. For that, you have my sincere apologies."

No hard feelings. I mean this is brawl, where you attack out of hitstun to end it even faster lol. I can understand it being hard to believe. I thought my methods were pretty direct though finding out why and how it works took some creativity.

"But it's possible that many aerials have a lagtime before they let you fastfall. This needs more testing."

From what I have done so far I think all aerials fast fall as soon as you input them but your example with Sonic may mean falcon kick style dairs do not. I guess I forgot about those kind of aerials. Lucario's just stalls so it could be different enough to not have that restraint like in my test. There could be some difference in fast falling times for each individual aerial I guess but it would be pretty arbitrary so I doubt it based on that. Most of the time the simple answers are the correct ones.

"So this just solidifies why the OP is right."

I think the OP did a good job for bringing this up but all I did was address some of the specifics that conflicted with what I knew about this. I didn't want people thinking that doing an aerial could save them without jumping kinda like people thought airdodging made you live longer by itself. The fast falling thing was the only other thing that needed to be brought up.

Thanks Infzy and Fizzi for actually trying it out and backing me up I appreciate it.

" B-Mon's idea of using DK's up-throw was smart IMO."

Lol at least the name is kinda close and 4 letters Infzy.

 

[infomon]

I didn't want people thinking that doing an aerial could save them without jumping

Heh, I still disagree with you here. I don't trust your Yoshi+DK example; I think the horizontal aerial influence you get after the aerial finishes should allow you to survive a horizontal KO that would otherwise kill you. Basically, I'm going to try and find an example to contradict your Yoshi+DK test :-) But I haven't got it yet, so I might be wrong lol.

" B-Mon's idea of using DK's up-throw was smart IMO."

Lol at least the name is kinda close and 4 letters Infzy.

Blargh! There's a guy named B-Mon who's also been posting in this thread, and I got the names confused. Sorry about that

 

[Big O]

"Blargh! There's a guy named B-Mon who's also been posting in this thread, and I got the names confused. Sorry about that"

I had a good laugh. It was probably late at night or something.

 

[Ulevo]

Infzy, you bring up an excellent point on how moves that end sooner may in fact be more vital to cases where you need to survive an attack that sent you horizontally. I'll test it later once I have some sleep and get back to you.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure you're wrong on that. I tested that a little bit just now, and I got nowhere while using regular AI after an aerial regardless of percent.

 

[MRTW113]

Dang, I should use this for Cruel Brawl...

 

[Big O]

Infzy, you bring up an excellent point on how moves that end sooner may in fact be more vital to cases where you need to survive an attack that sent you horizontally. I'll test it later once I have some sleep and get back to you.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure you're wrong on that. I tested that a little bit just now, and I got nowhere while using regular AI after an aerial regardless of percent.

Aerials that end the soonest are the best for horizontal KO moves because they let you jump the soonest. An aerial that lasts forever may end up killing you because you end up jumping either too late or are still locked in the aerial when you die. Also doing a quick too aerial late is basically the same thing as doing laggy aerial in terms of letting you jump sooner.

 

[infomon]

Oh, and I'm pretty sure you're wrong on that. I tested that a little bit just now, and I got nowhere while using regular AI after an aerial regardless of percent.

Geez this was hard to find, and I got nowhere with Yoshi. But here's my test: Training mode, Final Destination, DK and Sonic, set Sonic to 77% and put him in the very centre. Use DK's fsmash (he should be spaced so it does 20 damage, not 21). Never use DI. Sonic should die off the side, even if you try and AI his tumble (I'm not sure if he makes it into tumble out of hitstun.. no matter). If you use an aerial (I've used Fair and Nair), you can AI away from death, without using his 2nd jump.

 

[Ulevo]

Geez this was hard to find, and I got nowhere with Yoshi. But here's my test: Training mode, Final Destination, DK and Sonic, set Sonic to 77% and put him in the very centre. Use DK's fsmash (he should be spaced so it does 20 damage, not 21). Never use DI. Sonic should die off the side, even if you try and AI his tumble (I'm not sure if he makes it into tumble out of hitstun.. no matter). If you use an aerial (I've used Fair and Nair), you can AI away from death, without using his 2nd jump.

Hm, I see. Interesting.

What I'm going to have to do is compiled a list of moves to use for horizontal kills and one for vertical kills for characters.

 

[theONEjanitor]

The OP is why I think people are wrong about Brawl being non-competitive. He says he doesn't see anyone use this, but good players have been using this for at least a couple months. It's not that brawl isn't competitive, is that most of the people who are playing brawl aren't really that good.

But yeah, basically the idea is, the sooner you can jump after you momentum is slowed, the sooner you can recover. Since most characters have an attack that lasts shorter than the air dodge, you can jump sooner.

 

[SinkingHigher]

So does it matter what aerial you do?

 

[infomon]

Yes. If you're going to die off the top, you want to use an aerial that lets you fastfall the soonest (ie. whatever has the quickest start-up time. This might be frame 1 for the majority of aerials, I'm not sure.)

If you're going towards one of the sides, you want to use the aerial that will end the soonest. So you regain your aerial influence the fastest, and can even use a midair jump or a special to help recover, as appropriate.

 

[Fizzi]

Being a snake main, I wanted to see which of his aerials ends the fastest in order to choose an aerial to perform for horizontal recovery. I do not believe there is any frame data for snake at the moment.

So I went to practice mode on smashville, and I shorthopped off the edge, did an aerial, and then used my mid-air jump. There is a nice animation thing that appears under your character when you do a mid-air jump so it was easy to see when my mid-air jump was being performed. So i figured, the aerial that let's me perform a mid-air jump the quickest afterwards would be the best choice for horizontal recovery, in other words the mid-air jump that was performed the highest. I tested all the aerials to find that bair should be the optimal aerial. Then I tested air dodging... and it outperformed the bair. Is there a flaw in my testing?

 

[Big O]

Well I tried out the Sonic thing and that worked so I did another test to see why it works. For this test I used DK's dash attack which starts out pretty strong but has the worst power growth I know of. I set Sonic to 575% (training mode and go backwards lol its faster) and dash attacked him from the middle of final d. If all you do is hold toward the stage Sonic dies. Sonic also lives at 576%. The weirdest thing though was that it did not matter when you aerial. Doing it early and almost the last moment possible gave the same results. For some reason even airdodging at the last moment before tumbling works(???). All the aerials and airdodges I tried worked the same and doing more than one did not seem to do anything. Even weirder was when i tried it on Yoshi. At 623% Yoshi dies no matter what and at 622% he lives either way. I also tried the same test on DK and basically at 642% DK barely lives without an aerial or airdodge and lives 643-5% doing an aerial or airdodge (again no matter which aerial/airdodge, how many times, and how late until right when DK starts tumbling). At 646% DK seems to always die.

My guess is you cross the blast zone sooner in certain tumble animations or some characters less aerial influence than usual when or after tumbling. Otherwise it is some extremely complicated and character/aerial/airdodge specific thing where the momentum you get back is set and very small.

To the guy asking about Snake's airdodge I think all his aerials end after his airdodge does so aerials might not be better for horizontal KO moves.

 

[roy is my boi]

You have no idea how much you have helped me. THX ALOT ULEVO=D

 

[AmigoOne]

So I read a lot of the post and there seems to be debate. Whats the general consensus?

 

[infomon]

Whats the general consensus?

I'm right and you're all wrong!

But seriously, I think we're still not sure about some aspects. If you want, try testing which aerials allow you to fastfall the soonest, for each character, and if momentum-changing aerials all act uniquely in this respect. That's for vertical KOs... as for horizontal ones, I think it's pretty much agreed that whatever finishes the soonest is best (to let you use aerial control and/or jumps or specials to help shift momentum).

Unless you're really hardcore and want to fastfall to get closer to the bottom of the screen, or you want to not fastfall to stay towards the top, in which case you might also care about when the aerial will let you fastfall. But that's rather exceptional.

But maybe this is all just my opinion o_O

 

[Ulevo]

I'm right and you're all wrong!

But seriously, I think we're still not sure about some aspects. If you want, try testing which aerials allow you to fastfall the soonest, for each character, and if momentum-changing aerials all act uniquely in this respect. That's for vertical KOs... as for horizontal ones, I think it's pretty much agreed that whatever finishes the soonest is best (to let you use aerial control and/or jumps or specials to help shift momentum).

Unless you're really hardcore and want to fastfall to get closer to the bottom of the screen, or you want to not fastfall to stay towards the top, in which case you might also care about when the aerial will let you fastfall. But that's rather exceptional.

But maybe this is all just my opinion o_O

Rather than just relying on Frame data and compiling the list (slowly) that way, I'm likely just going to start testing which aerials work best for each scenario with different characters, and list them.

But yes, Infzy seems to have summed up our conclusions quite nicely. The sooner the attack activates when being sent vertically, the sooner you can fast fall, the longer you'll live. The sooner the attack ends when being sent horizontally, the sooner you can jump (and use your AI apparently), the longer you'll live.

 

[shadowtroop]

hopefuly this hasn't been said, but

The damage system in brawl uses decimals

Example:
145% and 145% could be

145.9% and the other 145.2% (not sure if it affects results though)

 

[infomon]

Thanks, but we're all aware of that. In fact Big O used this fact for some of his tests. This doesn't impact our conclusions any.

 

[Hype]

Its there any relation between how good your character's DI is and how much jumps can save you. I have a really good memory and I remember M2K saying a long time ago that Dedede's jump doesn't stop momemtum as well as others. Dedede's DI sucks (I think its the worst).

 

[hizzlum]

This was found in may
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCX3nIR5uDk, kizzu posted a video before this thread started, so it has been known for at least 4 months by some people
Im just saying that it was found out before this thread and that youtube link in the OP

 

[infomon]

Yeah, dude, that video was a part of this discussion. And it doesn't explain or clarify half the stuff in the OP. Also the OP even says he thought it was common knowledge.

 

[hizzlum]

Yeah, dude, that video was a part of this discussion. And it doesn't explain or clarify half the stuff in the OP. Also the OP even says he thought it was common knowledge.

Srry then no need to bring up the subject if already discussed the "kizzu finding it first"

 

[Judge Judy]

Would Mario's cape work? It's not a true aerial but it stops his momentum. Also, add Nair for Mario.

 

[infomon]

Only A-button aerial attacks, and airdodges, can be used out of hitstun. Specials cannot; you have to get out of hitstun first. In this thread the word Aerials is being used at the exclusion of Specials. I assume that Mario's cape follows the normal rules, anyway, and so it will not be relevant to the mechanic being discussed here.

 

[geekd]

what if, say, fox used his quickest aerial after being hit and then his reflector. Would this stop his momentum?

 

[Judge Judy]

Only A-button aerial attacks, and airdodges, can be used out of hitstun. Specials cannot; you have to get out of hitstun first. In this thread the word Aerials is being used at the exclusion of Specials. I assume that Mario's cape follows the normal rules, anyway, and so it will not be relevant to the mechanic being discussed here.

Ok, I got yah, sry just was trying to get a question answered.

 

[Morrigan]

6) Aerial attacks and Air Dodging are the only actions you can perform while sent flying. This also means that Specials cannot be used until you have regained control, and thus cannot be used the way aerials can.

Ulevo, is it possible to survive longer with characters that can spawn projectiles that act like items? I think you can also throw items (in this case, a Turnip) as soon as you are sent flying just as you can perfom an aerial/air dodge. In fact, you can perform special moves right after you throw the item.
I am not assuming anything, I could be wrong and I would like to know if this is possible or not.

 

[infomon]

what if, say, fox used his quickest aerial after being hit and then his reflector. Would this stop his momentum?

Wow, actually I think it's a lot worse to use the reflector!

I tried some tests with using Luigi's up-B on a Fox on the largest possible custom stage. Fastfall an aerial with Fox out of hitstun, so you're travelling up at a reduced pace... then use his Shine, and he'll burst upwards! Using his 2nd jump at that time also causes this surprising momentum shift. I wonder if this is true of all Specials, all characters? I ran out of batteries before I could test.

@Dekuu, you're right, you can throw out of hitstun! This is probably faster than any aerials on any characters? That's a pretty big claim, I'm not sure. From the weird Shine behaviour of Fox, using a Special might not be a good idea, but it probably depends on character/special/situation. Need to test more....

 

[Morrigan]

So I was right (kinda).
I use Peach so it happens to me quite a lot. Whenever I'm sent off stage flying I immediately throw the tunip towards the stage followed up by a Peach Bomber. The majority of the times I do this it doesn't turn out really well because before I can do the Bomber I get KOd (due to Peach's light weight and floatiness). However, I haven't tried (or I don't recall) doing an aerial right after the throw. It could be more effective than the Bomber.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Oh wow, so the secret is out. I've been doing this since about early August and my average tourney placement jumped when I started using it. It's FREAKING good.

Dekuu, wow at throwing a turnip. Great idea...but if I don't have a turnip, I want to do Peach's nuetral air or down air. I like down air better because I can keep hitting down on the c stick and it helps me fast fall as well, although neutral air comes out quicker, I should try working that in from now on.

 

[infomon]

I use Peach so it happens to me quite a lot. Whenever I'm sent off stage flying I immediately throw the tunip towards the stage followed up by a Peach Bomber.

Bad idea. After you throw the turnip, you have aerial influence; even while you're still being sent away. But if you use your Peach Bomber during this time, let's say it makes a "ha-cha!" sound. During the "ha-" part, you will be pushed further away from the stage, and get a surprising upwards boost -- which happens whether or not you fastfall the aerial.

Guys, I'm ready to conclude that using a Special during knockback (ie. in the time you would have been in hitstun except you used an aerial, airdodge, or throw to escape hitstun early) causes an upwards boost in momentum. Rather, this happens to any special that can influence momentum; even innocent-seeming ones like Mario's Cape, but not Mario's fireball.

The majority of the times I do this it doesn't turn out really well because before I can do the Bomber I get KOd (due to Peach's light weight and floatiness). However, I haven't tried (or I don't recall) doing an aerial right after the throw. It could be more effective than the Bomber.

Well the Bomber might have been what was killing you at times! But also, doing an aerial after the throw will not help!! It just means you won't be able to use aerial influence, or a jump, to avoid the edge. Once you've done the throw, you're free.

Also, thanks again for discovering that throws escape hitstun, it's really useful and should be added to the OP.