Deleted

[Ulevo]

Training mode is pretty screwed up. The percents are all slightly different and IIRC attacks are slightly weaker (maybe so people can have fun combo'ing in training mode without actually affecting the versus mode?).

Also, you can set handicaps in versus mode so you don't have to manually damage opponents like you did in the video.

I know that you can set a handicap. That's what I was doing. I just needed to do it manually in Vs mode, since you can't set damage in that mode, and I had to save a replay and send it to Steel to record.

Unfortunately my internet is screwy atm and I was unable to read 2 of the pages in this thread. That said, you have continuously stated that the aerial itself does not affect momentum. I wonder how you can say this when it is clear that certain aerials do affect momentum. The best example I can give is Snake's dair. Use it when being sent flying diagonally and you will see a clear momentum shift (the move gives you downward momentum). It is most useful for saving snake from getting star KOed. Unfortunately I don't know the frame rate at which the move comes out but how come dair will prevent a star KO whereas bair will do nothing?

You've also stated that the fastest aerial coming out is the best one, but you haven't completely clarified why. Is it because you regain your ability to control your character in the air as soon at the aerial starts or is it only after it ends? And air dodging does not produce the same result? So you regain control instantly when the aerial first comes out and not when it ends?

Bah. Read the rest of the thread then.

Aerials do not effect momentum when you've been hit by an attack. They allow you to regain the control you need to slow your momentum. Snakes Dair does not have downward shifting momentum. It doesn't. It just allows you to move once the attack has been used.

The Dair will allow you to survive better than the Bair because it has faster start up Frames. The Bair can help you survive too, just not as well.

I believe that you regain control of your character once the move starts, although I need a proper testing example before I can fully clarify that. For that, I need aerial frame data of two moves that have similar start up time, but significantly different cool down frames.

Air Dodging acts as if you are still in the phase of hit stun, because you still travel the same trajectory you would had you done nothing, and you're unable to perform any action until it ends.

 

[LayzAyzn]

Also, you can set handicaps in versus mode so you don't have to manually damage opponents like you did in the video.

I know that you can set a handicap. That's what I was doing. I just needed to do it manually in Vs mode, since you can't set damage in that mode, and I had to save a replay and send it to Steel to record.

You can set handicaps in Group Brawl; it's in the options along with brawl type/damage ratio/stage choice/item switch.

 

[J4pu]

FALCO
All credit for data goes to 3GOD
unfortunately he didn't include how long the aerials last, but 49 frames is pretty **** long so I'd guess all aerials except Fair end before that.

Air Dodge:
Lasts 49 Frames
Invincible Frames 4 – 31

Nair: Unfortunately it's kinda hard to C-stick Nair, so Bair is next best
First hits on frame 3
Landing lag: 9
Shield hit lag: 6
Shield stun: 7
Advantage: -8

Dair:
First hits on frame 5
Landing lag: 12
Shield hit lag: 10
Shield stun: 14
Advantage: -8

Fair:
First hits on frame 6
Landing lag: 33
Shield hit lag:
Shield stun:
Advantage: bad - not going to bother checking

Bair:
First hits on frame 4
Landing lag: 15
Shield hit lag: 10
Shield stun: 14
Advantage: -11

Uair:
First hits on frame 10
Landing lag: 15
Shield hit lag: 9
Shield stun: 12
Advantage: -12

You can use Falco's Fair and Bair to test if the ending of the aerial plays a significant part in recovering, Fair has an ungodly length, you can barely full hop it

 

[Ulevo]

Alright, update guys. Things I have confirmed.

1) How well you survive using aerials is dependent on how soon the aerial ends as well, not just how fast they start up. I tested this using Marths Nair and Dair, which both have the same start up Frames at Frame 6. The Dair, obviously, has significantly more cool down time, and I died attempting to live because of this.

2) You can't use Specials during your hit lag. Aerials and Air Dodges are the only actions you can perform. I wasn't 100% sure on this before, but I am now.

So this means from now on that we need aerials that are quick in start up and that end fast too. Start throwing out those Frames guys.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Okay so if I'm lucario, his fastest aerial is definitely Fair (although they are all fast, except bair which is still okay) So if I was sent flying off the stage straight left, i would want to do a fair and then DI up? Is this correct? Does it help to use multiple fairs?

This thread has gone a long way since I last saw it. Gj man.

 

[Ulevo]

Okay so if I'm lucario, his fastest aerial is definitely Fair (although they are all fast, except bair which is still okay) So if I was sent flying off the stage straight left, i would want to do a fair and then DI up? Is this correct? Does it help to use multiple fairs?

This thread has gone a long way since I last saw it. Gj man.

You always DI first. You have to DI before or on the exact frame that you're hit by the attack that sends you flying, other wise you can't DI. But yes, once you're sent flying, use your Fair to recover for Lucario. And no, doing multiple aerials will not help you, and may actually endanger you. Only use one.

 

[infomon]

1) How well you survive using aerials is dependent on how soon the aerial ends as well, not just how fast they start up. I tested this using Marths Nair and Dair, which both have the same start up Frames at Frame 6. The Dair, obviously, has significantly more cool down time, and I died attempting to live because of this.

But do we know for sure that the startup time actually matters? I mean, aerial startup time usually talks about when the hitbox comes out, but I can't see how that would matter here. You said before that the in-aerial state doesn't give you any more momentum than the hitstun, so all that should matter is when the aerial finishes right? Maybe I misread something somewhere...

2) You can't use Specials during your hit lag. Aerials and Air Dodges are the only actions you can perform. I wasn't 100% sure on this before, but I am now.

Correction: I think you meant hitstun, not hitlag. But yes, I noticed this in my own tests, too.

Okay so if I'm lucario, his fastest aerial is definitely Fair (although they are all fast, except bair which is still okay) So if I was sent flying off the stage straight left, i would want to do a fair and then DI up? Is this correct? Does it help to use multiple fairs?

You should be DI'ing up even before you're able to perform the Fair (as well as during and after the Fair). That is, there's a period of hitstun in which you can't yet use an aerial, but you can certainly DI.

I'm pretty sure it's been settled that using multiple Fairs does not help. (But does Lucario's Fair give him forward momentum? and would it matter? I'm not sure...)

This thread has gone a long way since I last saw it. Gj man.

Absolutely! Thanks Ulevo + co.

Edit: Ulevo beat me to it, and apparently I misunderstand regular DI :/

 

[ADHD]

So let me get this straight. When you are struck with a blow, you DI and then use your fastest aerial asap right?

Maybe we'll have something as good as the melee DI for surviving eventually

 

[Ulevo]

So let me get this straight. When you are struck with a blow, you DI and then use your fastest aerial asap right?

Maybe we'll have something as good as the melee DI for surviving eventually

That is absolutely correct my good sir.

Also guys, I updated the opening post in order to help those who may have specific questions.

 

[Ulevo]

But do we know for sure that the startup time actually matters? I mean, aerial startup time usually talks about when the hitbox comes out, but I can't see how that would matter here. You said before that the in-aerial state doesn't give you any more momentum than the hitstun, so all that should matter is when the aerial finishes right? Maybe I misread something somewhere...

You know, that's not the impression I'm getting while performing them myself, but that might very well be the case. I'll need some frame data to test this theory though.

EDIT: I just tested it with Lugi, and it does matter both ways. I used both his Dair and Uair, which have near the same cool down time and IASA Frame length, but Uairs start up Frames are 5 Frames faster. I lived longer using Uair than I did Dair.

 

[infomon]

That's.... kinda bizarre. So executing the aerial itself returns some momentum, and the "startup time" of the aerial is when you get this momentum back? (is this the time until a hitbox is active? or.... what?)

It's possible that Luigi's Dair has some weird momentum property. And that in some minor way this can matter when you're getting blasted away........ *shrug* I dunno >.>

 

[B-Mon]

So every player should mash their C-Stick until they get their fastest aerial just once A.S.A.P. after they have been sent flying allowing them to move earlier thus allowing survival to be much more often.

Tell me if I understood the topic and the thesis of your thoughts Ulevo.

 

[Ulevo]

So every player should mash their C-Stick until they get their fastest aerial just once A.S.A.P. after they have been sent flying allowing them to move earlier thus allowing survival to be much more often.

Tell me if I understood the topic and the thesis of your thoughts Ulevo.

Yes, essentially. Obviously if Nair is the attack you should be using, you won't be using the stick. The stick isn't needed. Use the aerial in however method you please. But you understood correct.

 

[Big O]

I think some of these facts are inaccurate. In my testing I think I have found the biggest reason for these discrepancies. Aerials are not different than air dodging in almost every way. The only way they differ is that you can fast fall during an aerial and not during an air dodge. This may sound silly at first but the reason you lived longer from using aerials against Zelda's upsmash is because when you hold down and cstick any aerial besides dairs you auto fast fall. Fast falling when hit up is what saves you. The start up of the aerial has nothing to do with saving you. I tested this with DK (a few other characters too) and fast falling a fair and bair (night and day difference in start up and completion) after getting hit by Luigi's uppercut and both worked equally well in preventing a sky KO. However DK's bair is much better for recovery in general because it ends sooner which lets you jump sooner for horizontal attacks. Also attacking does not return any momentum. If you do not jump after the aerial (or fast fall during the aerial) you will follow the exact same trajectory and fly the exact same distance. For horizontal knockback, attacking will not save you unless you jump.

 

[infomon]

Hmm, that's quite possible. How does auto-fastfalling work? I mean, can you still fastfall as you're travelling upward? Seems kinda strange. But this sounds like a better explanation than an aerial "start-up time".

 

[Ulevo]

I think some of these facts are inaccurate. In my testing I think I have found the biggest reason for these discrepancies. Aerials are not different than air dodging in almost every way. The only way they differ is that you can fast fall during an aerial and not during an air dodge. This may sound silly at first but the reason you lived longer from using aerials against Zelda's upsmash is because when you hold down and cstick any aerial besides dairs you auto fast fall. Fast falling when hit up is what saves you. The start up of the aerial has nothing to do with saving you. I tested this with DK (a few other characters too) and fast falling a fair and bair (night and day difference in start up and completion) after getting hit by Luigi's uppercut and both worked equally well in preventing a sky KO. However DK's bair is much better for recovery in general because it ends sooner which lets you jump sooner for horizontal attacks. Also attacking does not return any momentum. If you do not jump after the aerial (or fast fall during the aerial) you will follow the exact same trajectory and fly the exact same distance. For horizontal knockback, attacking will not save you unless you jump.

Actually, you're wrong.

You cannot fast fall until you hit the apex of your jump or trajectory. Period. In all three examples in the video shown, aerials were used before the apex was reached. You're also wrong about how aerials work. All attacks will not auto fast fall when using the C Stick except for Dair, regardless of circumstance. Dair on the C Stick acts as if you pressed Down + Attack. Again, you need to hit the apex for that to occur.

Also, I DI'd up during the example with Marth, making fast falling impossible. I've done plenty of other tests and DI'd up or not at all, and got the same results with aerials.

Sorry.

 

[Big O]

I know normally you cannot fast fall until u reach the top but for some reason after getting hit it does not matter if you are at the top or not. I said you auto fast fall csticked aerials except dair when HOLDING DOWN (like you were during Zelda's upsmash). Maybe you should at least try it before outright dismissing it. In your example with Marth when you say you DI'ed up do you mean DI'ing the attack up, DI'ing up after Marth's aerial, or both. If after the aerial you pressed down it would only prove my point that you fast falled the aerial. How you DI'ed the attack has nothing to do with what I am trying to say. If you are hit upwards fast falling an aerial will slow your upward momentum. Otherwise aerials do not alter flight paths without jumping or other specials. An example would be if a giant punch KO's Mario at 70% (actual percentage might be different) if all he does is hold toward the stage after the hit (no DI or smash DI) then using an aerial and holding toward the stage will still KO him.

 

[Ulevo]

I know normally you cannot fast fall until u reach the top but for some reason after getting hit it does not matter if you are at the top or not. I said you auto fast fall csticked aerials except dair when HOLDING DOWN (like you were during Zelda's upsmash). Maybe you should at least try it before outright dismissing it. In your example with Marth when you say you DI'ed up do you mean DI'ing the attack up, DI'ing up after Marth's aerial, or both. If after the aerial you pressed down it would only prove my point that you fast falled the aerial. How you DI'ed the attack has nothing to do with what I am trying to say. If you are hit upwards fast falling an aerial will slow your upward momentum. Otherwise aerials do not alter flight paths without jumping or other specials. An example would be if a giant punch KO's Mario at 70% (actual percentage might be different) if all he does is hold toward the stage after the hit (no DI or smash DI) then using an aerial and holding toward the stage will still KO him.

In my example with Marth I held up the entire time. There was no room to fast fall because I did not press down on the analog stick once. It was the same with Meta Knight, as I stopped holding down to DI down once Meta Knight had been launched by Fox's DSmash. The only reason I held down with ZSS was because I didn't want her to possibly miss the KO Frame in Zelda's USmash because the first initial damaging frames popped her up too much. That and I was kinda lazy. I've done it before without holding down, and had the same result. I use this constantly in my matches to help me live, and so do my crew mates. I know this works.

Not only that, but half of what you're claiming doesn't even make sense. You can't fast fall while you're sent flying, nor can you do it before you hit your apex. You can't.

I'm sorry to say, but you're just flat out wrong. You're essentially saying that aerials have no effect on helping your ability to survive without fast fall involved, which is completely false, and I do not feel like proving otherwise. You also stated that aerials without jumping give you no added benefit. That is also false, and again, I do not feel the need to prove you wrong with what I have already explained or displayed.

If you feel what you're talking about is correct, record it or send a replay to someone so they can, and post it on youtube.

 

[infomon]

You're essentially saying that aerials have no effect on helping your ability to survive without fast fall involved, which is completely false, and I do not feel like proving otherwise.

He didn't quite say that; he's aware that using an aerial can help, because the aerial may end sooner than hitstun would end otherwise, so you regain aerial control sooner. (As well as the ability to use jumps and specials.)

I guess his claim is that during an aerial, you do not have any more aerial control than you do during hitstun. (Is that right, Big O?) I think this is wrong, but I can't seem to prove it to myself... and testing this stuff is getting tedious

 

[Big O]

"I'm sorry to say, but you're just flat out wrong. You're essentially saying that aerials have no effect on helping your ability to survive without fast fall involved, which is completely false, and I do not feel like proving otherwise"
I have only said aerials do not help to recover unless you jump/special after the aerial or fast fall in the case of star KO's. I also just realized the Marth and Metaknight example you did a quick aerial then jumped which is indeed better than airdodging then jumping, but not what i was talking about and i never said aerial + jump does nothing. I did say the only difference between airdodging and aerials was that you can fast fall during an aerial (even though aerials can end sooner thus obsoleting airdodging) and that aerials by themselves do nothing to affect your momentum. I assumed your Marth example was using just an aerial to avoid a star KO which led to some confusion. The only example I mentioned in my first post was a star KO move because thats what I was discussing in my explanation (fast falling an aerial to help survive). All you have to do to test my fast falling claims is simple. With DK and Mario in group brawl set Mario's damage to 230 via handicap and go to final destination. Up throw mario with DK and Mario should die. Holding down with Mario on the next up throw (after dying with DK after each up throw) Mario will die. Doing another Up thorw on Mario HOLDING DOWN and pressing a for a dair and he will still die. Next cstick (set to smash) a dair with Mario and he lives. Next cstick any other aerial and he will die. Next hold down and cstick any aerial except a dair and he will live. Next hold down and cstick a dair and he will die. Every time Mario lives you will notcie something. Mario is fast falling...

 

[Big O]

He didn't quite say that; he's aware that using an aerial can help, because the aerial may end sooner than hitstun would end otherwise, so you regain aerial control sooner. (As well as the ability to use jumps and specials.)

I guess his claim is that during an aerial, you do not have any more aerial control than you do during hitstun. (Is that right, Big O?) I think this is wrong, but I can't seem to prove it to myself... and testing this stuff is getting tedious

Yes that is what i was saying and i was aware that using aerial + jump > airdodge + jump. Basically if you do not fast fall or jump/special then aerials will not help you survive.

 

[Ulevo]

Yes that is what i was saying and i was aware that using aerial + jump > airdodge + jump.

If what Infzy claims is correct and that is what you were trying to explain, I was already aware of that. I know you're unable to control yourself whilst using an attack. What is your point then?

 

[Big O]

If what Infzy claims is correct and that is what you were trying to explain, I was already aware of that. I know you're unable to control yourself whilst using an attack. What is your point then?

From what I can tell you say that using one aerial gives you back momentum after the aerial is over and I am saying that it does not unless you fast fall (downward momentum) or jump/special from my tests. That and an aerial's start up speed is irrelevant. Basically you cannot move (but can still jump, attack again, special, etc.) until the hitstun would have worn off without attacking even if you attack to act out of hitstun sooner you will fly the same path unless you jump/special or fast fall.

 

[Ulevo]

From what I can tell you say that using one aerial gives you back momentum after the aerial is over and I am saying that it does not unless you fast fall (downward momentum) or jump/special from my tests. That and an aerial's start up speed is irrelevant.

Oh okay, thanks for clarifying. You're still wrong.

Start up speed, from my testings, is relevant. Jumping is not required. It is only used if you would die otherwise or if your character can in fact return to the stage safely after using the jump. Fast falling cannot happen until the apex of your trajectory (by which time you would have died or lived anyway), and you can slow your momentum through other means, such as holding the Analog stick towards the stage after an aerial.

 

[Big O]

Well just try out my test and you will see I am right on fast falling. It should not take more than 5 minutes.

 

[Ulevo]

Well just try out my test and you will see I am right on fast falling. It should not take more than 5 minutes.

I am unable to do so at the moment. Even if I were able to, and actually wanted to, I have no reason to considering what you're telling me doesn't make any logical sense. You can't fast fall during an aerial or before the apex of your trajectory. Period.

I'm not going to discuss this further because it's a waste of my time. I had to provide proof for my claims. No one took my examples and tested them themselves (and if they did, they did it improperly). Why should I have to make the exception?

 

[infomon]

I tried your tests and others, Big O. It helps to experiment on a really large custom stage, so that you can clearly see Mario all throughout his vertical path. All I could see was that it's possible to input a fastfall before reaching your apex height, so that after you reach the apex and start descending, you'll already be in a fastfall. But I'm not sure this changes your max. height any. And I could only observe the early-fastfall-input if I do an aerial that begins before the apex, but ends after the apex. I suppose it's a buffering issue?

As for Mario surviving if and only if you fastfall.. I think that's just because of aerial control after the aerial, not because of the fastfall. That is, like Ulevo, I don't think fastfall exists/has meaning unless you're travelling downwards. In which case you won't be hitting the top blast-line >.>

Or do you know of any other discussion on smashboards about this auto-fastfall thing?

 

[Ulevo]

I tried your tests and others, Big O. It helps to experiment on a really large custom stage, so that you can clearly see Mario all throughout his vertical path. All I could see was that it's possible to input a fastfall before reaching your apex height, so that after you reach the apex and start descending, you'll already be in a fastfall. But I'm not sure this changes your max. height any. And I could only observe the early-fastfall-input if I do an aerial that begins before the apex, but ends after the apex. I suppose it's a buffering issue?

As for Mario surviving if and only if you fastfall.. I think that's just because of aerial control after the aerial, not because of the fastfall. That is, like Ulevo, I don't think fastfall exists/has meaning unless you're travelling downwards. In which case you won't be hitting the top blast-line >.>

Or do you know of any other discussion on smashboards about this auto-fastfall thing?

It is because of aerial control. It's the same thing as being sent flying to the right and after performing an aerial, holding to the left to stop yourself from dying in the far right blastzone. The same applies if you're sent straight up.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Might have already been asked but I'm not reading 10 pages to check.

Do you mind explaining 7 to me? I'm not sure why airdodge sucks isn't it faster than some other aerials?

 

[infomon]

Airdodging sucks because everyone (as far as I know) has at least one aerial that would finish faster than the airdodge. That's the only reason why. So you might as well use that aerial instead.

 

[B-Mon]

Yes, essentially. Obviously if Nair is the attack you should be using, you won't be using the stick. The stick isn't needed. Use the aerial in however method you please. But you understood correct.

Yeah forgot to mention the simple tap of the A-button.
Thanks for letting me know man.

So based on frame data, Falco's Momentum Changing Aerial is the Nair, correct?

 

[Ulevo]

Might have already been asked but I'm not reading 10 pages to check.

Do you mind explaining 7 to me? I'm not sure why airdodge sucks isn't it faster than some other aerials?

Did you not watch the video? Air Dodging does almost nothing to help you live.

Yeah forgot to mention the simple tap of the A-button.
Thanks for letting me know man.

So based on frame data, Falco's Momentum Changing Aerial is the Nair, correct?

It's his Bair actually. It has less cool down time.

 

[B-Mon]

Understood. Thanks again.

 

[Vyse]

I'll add a link to this in the Mega AT/discovery/general knowledge sticky when I update it next. Harass me if I don't.

 

[Magus420]

I think I might have a possible explanation for some of what's happening. Keep in mind I do not own and also barely ever play the game, but from what I know and have read here I have a theory that seems to follow along with the testing in here:


If it's truly not possible to 'fastfall' while moving upwards or at least increase your downward acceleration by tapping down then I'm thinking the results of many of these might actually be caused by 'SDI'ing outside of hitlag (it'd be more like smash air control or something but I'll just write it as 'SDI' as opposed to just SDI without the apostrophes). Particularly the vertical KOs. For horizontal I can see it also being aided by the faster aerials allowing you to jump/air control sooner, so with those it'd be a combination of the two.

Having not experienced it from playing the game myself and being a Melee player, such an idea of 'SDI' when not in hitlag would otherwise sound kind of silly to me, but it seems like it may exist in some form in this game. Whether or not it exists in the first place and it's really at work here I can't really say, but it certainly looks that way to me if you can't fastfall or something to similar effect when moving upward.

You know how MK's infinite dimensional cape works? The general way to do it is to hold downward and tap up on the c-stick (must be set to smashes I think). When in the startup of the move you can actually reposition yourself by smashing in that direction (like SDI). A little quirk is that when you move into the ground when doing this during the move it extends the cape's animation. By holding down and tapping the c-stick upward you 'SDI' into the ground when the c-stick is released, which extends it each time you do. You can also reach up onto platforms with it if you 'SDI' upwards before ending it.

So it would seem like the game reads it like this:

The way the game inputs the C-stick is like a tap on the control stick plus A, so this is what the game read:

Frame x-2: tilt down
Frame x-1: tilt down
Frame x: tap up + A
Frame x+1: tap down
Frame x+2: tilt down

You might ask, "If that actually happens then wouldn't that just make you 'SDI' up and then 'SDI' back down again which would cancel it out?" It might, in which case the 'SDI' isn't what's causing it. However, I think it may be combining the respective axis values that are input for the purposes of SDI, so when the c-stick is pressed up while down is being held on the control, it's really doing:

{[Y-Axis: -100] + [Y-Axis (from c-stick): +100]} / 2 = Y-Axis: 0

So as far as SDI input goes you'd be doing: Holding Full Down -> Neutral -> Full Down (results in a SDI down)



Also, check out this thread about non-hitlag 'SDI' which got me thinking:

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=299323#p299323

All you have to do to test my fast falling claims is simple. With DK and Mario in group brawl set Mario's damage to 230 via handicap and go to final destination. Up throw mario with DK and Mario should die. Holding down with Mario on the next up throw (after dying with DK after each up throw) Mario will die. Doing another Up thorw on Mario HOLDING DOWN and pressing a for a dair and he will still die. Next cstick (set to smash) a dair with Mario and he lives. Next cstick any other aerial and he will die. Next hold down and cstick any aerial except a dair and he will live. Next hold down and cstick a dair and he will die. Every time Mario lives you will notcie something. Mario is fast falling...

This is what caught my attention in this thread. Particularly the parts where holding and not holding down got different results for the same c-sticked aerial. Did anyone confirm each of these specific examples? They all follow the c-stick 'SDI' thing pretty well. The common factor with all of these is that a smash down is input when they live and is not when they die.

1) Up throw mario with DK and Mario should die.
No 'SDI'

2) Holding down with Mario on the next up throw (after dying with DK after each up throw) Mario will die.
No 'SDI'

3) Doing another Up thorw on Mario HOLDING DOWN and pressing a for a dair and he will still die.
Down is never smashed here. It is being held down the entire time.
No 'SDI'

4) Next cstick (set to smash) a dair with Mario and he lives.
The c-stick smashes Down + A.
'SDI' Down

5) Next cstick any other aerial and he will die.
The c-stick smashes a direction that is not away from the blastzone + A.
Useless 'SDI'

6) Next hold down and cstick any aerial except a dair and he will live.
Releasing the c-stick has at least a change of -50 for SDI on the Y-Axis and you 'SDI' down. You should also 'SDI' left/right when you press the c-stick if you F/B-Air.
'SDI' Down

7) Next hold down and cstick a dair and he will die.
Same as 3. Down is never smashed here. It is being held down the entire time.
No 'SDI'

OK. Now with the test with Zelda's U-Smash and Zamus in the video you were holding down on both right? When you did the D-Air this wouldn't have resulted in a 'SDI' and so you died just like number 7 above. When you did the other aerial (I don't know what move that is) you would have 'SDI'ed down when you released the c-stick which made you live like number 6 above.

On that note, did you release the c-stick when you did the aerial that saved you in this situation? If you did, could you also test the same exact thing but instead continue to hold the c-stick in that direction the entire time after pressing it for the aerial? If doing that makes a difference then it'd mean that either non-hitlag 'SDI' is probably taking place and helping you survive or it's causing some kind of 'fastfall'. If it's the same and you live with both, then either it's not what's causing it or that the way I'm thinking the game reads the 2 sticks' inputs isn't right and it's still giving a tap down input somewhere.

With the examples above it seems like the deciding factor that makes them live longer than normal vertically is only when a smash down is input through some means while going upwards. Other than the result being some kind of downward movement or downward acceleration I don't know what else could explain what keeps you alive if it doesn't work without that when the other conditions are the same.

Also, why don't you try breaking your shield to do the tests? That way you can DI beforehand and not worry about SDIing in hitlag or moving around before being hit. Is there another better vertical move that sends straight up to use that isn't multihit like Zelda's U-Smash?

 

[infomon]

Also, check out this thread about non-hitlag 'SDI' which got me thinking:

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=299323#p299323

People keep talking about this thread, but I see no credible evidence that smash-DI outside of hitlag exists. If C-stick inputs a direction along with the attack button, then of course it can be used to input aerial control along with or during an attack. How is that smash-DI? Or am I missing something here?

I'll have to research and think about the MK cape thing, though. There might be another explanation.

Also, why don't you try breaking you shield to do the tests? That way you can DI beforehand and not worry about SDIing in hitlag or moving around before being hit. Is there another better vertical move that sends straight up to use that isn't multihit like Zelda's U-Smash?

Moving around before being hit is rather the point, isn't it? We're experimenting with using aerials before hitting max. height, for example. I don't know what we'd do with shield-breaking. B-Mon's idea of using DK's up-throw was smart IMO.

 

[Magus420]

Moving around before being hit is rather the point, isn't it? We're experimenting with using aerials before hitting max. height, for example. I don't know what we'd do with shield-breaking. B-Mon's idea of using DK's up-throw was smart IMO.

It disables you from moving around while you hold a DI before the hit. If you try to DI before otherwise, like if it's up & towards for example you'd walk before getting hit, and if you do it as you get hit you will SDI during the hitlag. And yes, the grab is a good idea because it also does the same thing. Shieldbreaking would let you DI attacks in a way other than up or down and still be in the same spot each time.

I don't really know much about shieldbreaks in Brawl though so maybe you do move around or something (your actual location not just your limbs and such).

 

[infomon]

Ohhhhhh, I get it now. So I break my shield, hold a direction, you hit me with an attack, and we proceed with the experiment. A perfect way to test regular DI.... I totally misunderstood before I might experiment with this later. Thanks.

 

[Fizzi]

Firstly, thank you for the detailed post Magus, your theory is very interesting. I just have a couple questions.

6) Next hold down and cstick any aerial except a dair and he will live.
Releasing the c-stick has at least a change of -50 for SDI on the Y-Axis and you 'SDI' down. You should also 'SDI' left/right when you press the c-stick if you F/B-Air.
'SDI' Down

I was under the impression that in order to gain any sort of gain in the Y direction, it was necessary to mash the stick in that same direction. In this case we would want to mash the stick down to provide a "SDI" downwards to let us live. Why does C-sticking to the left or right have any effect in the Y direction. Is it because the C-stick will temporarily override the down direction on the control stick? And when you release the C-stick the game will read the down on the control stick as a "SDI" input? If that's the case then why does c-stick up work? Wouldn't the game read first an input of a SDI up and then down resulting in no gain in the y direction?

7) Next hold down and cstick a dair and he will die.
Same as 3. Down is never smashed here. It is being held down the entire time.
No 'SDI'

Why does this not work? Is it because the dair performed will not be inputted as a "stick mash" since you are already holding in down?

 

[Espy Rose]

All you have to do to test my fast falling claims is simple. With DK and Mario in group brawl set Mario's damage to 230 via handicap and go to final destination. Up throw mario with DK and Mario should die. Holding down with Mario on the next up throw (after dying with DK after each up throw) Mario will die. Doing another Up thorw on Mario HOLDING DOWN and pressing a for a dair and he will still die. Next cstick (set to smash) a dair with Mario and he lives. Next cstick any other aerial and he will die. Next hold down and cstick any aerial except a dair and he will live. Next hold down and cstick a dair and he will die. Every time Mario lives you will notcie something. Mario is fast falling...

I'm pretty sure by now everyone has noticed that when you cstick in the air after your jump animation ends, that you fastfall the character's dair with cstick down. I just remembered that because of the bolded.

So basically, there's a good chance that csticking down without holding down on the control stick may help you survive better vertically? As for horizontally, you do the fastest attack you can to weaken momentum, then jump to regain aerial control?

Just trying to make sure I understand what you're talking about here.