Deleted

[PkTrainerCris]

congratulations, its actually better than airdodge, good find

 

[Luigi player]

That's nice. Um, how is it with different aerials though? Is there a difference? I always hated airdodging the whole time anyway... because sometimes I airdodge and can't recover (when I'm sent downwards) because of it.

 

[Tenki]

Question. What determines when you stop being able to be star KO'd? If you jump after a uair after being hit upward, can you kill yourself or could it save you or would you already be immune to death by the time you have the ability to jump?

I'm pretty sure I've died doing double jump > D-air while trying to retaliate from an upwards-launching atack


Oh, this was with Sonic - his is a stall-then-fall, if that means anything.

 

[geekd]

good find

aerial-jump > dodge-jump

Does the aerial actually reduce any momentum or does it just give you control quicker?

 

[Ulevo]

So if you do an aerial, will you survive or will the jump immediately after be the best choice?

Or does it matter after you do your 2nd jump after the aerial?

It depends how powerful the attack is that sent you flying and your percent. If you think you're going to die, I would use the aerial best suited for your character and jump out as soon as the cool down frames end. However if you think you'll live by just using the aerial, save your jump to recover back to the stage.

Use at your discretion. The jump isn't necessary at all, and it doesn't have as big of an effect as the aerials do. It just helps.

Yep, this seems totally legit. Most, if not all, characters have at least one aerial that can finish faster than their air-dodge time. I have a number of questions:

• When you're hit by an attack, you're first in a state of hitlag (where you can smash-DI), then hitstun, then tumble (if you're at high enough percent). It seems like hitstun has two phases: in the first part you can only DI, whereas in the second part you can airdodge or perform an aerial. Is that correct?
  
  
• Once you're in tumble you can use your 2nd jump, or use Specials... Alternatively, I don't think you can Special out of hitstun, am I right?
  
  
• If you're in hitstun and you have an aerial that will finish sooner than your hitstun will end, you should use it, necessarily.
  
  
• Using an aerial (or maybe even an airdodge?), instead of staying in hitstun, gives you back a bit of momentum. At least, this is one of the things Ulevo argues, that the aerial itself inherently returns some momentum, so the more aerials the better (until you have your neutral momentum back). Right?
  
  
• I don't think your 2nd jump immediately returns all momentum back, but it's effective at cancelling most of it (more than an aerial), so jumps are useful if you're going near the horizontal killzone. Using an aerial is probably the most effective way to get your 2nd jump back out of hitstun, unless your hitstun would end sooner than the aerial.
  
  
• If you're going near the vertical killzone, spam aerials as much as possible? (while DI'ing) I don't think you can fastfall unless your vertical speed is close to nil, or if you have a fastfalling aerial, right?

I think Ulevo argued that all aerials help give momentum back, although the very momentum-changing aerials don't give you any special bonus in the situation you describe. Although I could just be crazy >.>



It depends, on what killzone you are near, etc. If I understand correctly...

1) That's correct.

2) I am almost positive, I'll check later. But I'm 99% sure.

3) Your aerial breaks you out of the hit stun phase, so no. Once you've used the aerial, the hit stun is gone and you have control again.

4) No. Aerials do not return momentum persay. Aerials don't have influence. They merely give you your control in the air back, so that you can influence yourself in the air through means such as jumping, or simply holding a direction on the analog stick.

5) Again, Jumps and Aerials serve two different purposes. Aerials break free of hitstun so you can move again to hault your momentum. Their purpose is to regain control. Jumping simply helps hault your momentum, which you can't do without being in control. Same goes for just using the analog stick to move around in the air.

6) No. You should never spam aerials to recover. Actually, spamming may in fact kill you, since you have less control while using attacks. In the example I showed in the video where I used Meta Knights Uair, I actually had to redo that video multiple times because I used a Uair twice and couldn't jump in time. The reason I spammed Uair with ZSS was to show you which attack was being used, since you couldn't really see what I was doing in the blastzone above in the video.

And yes, momentum altering aerials give no extra benefit to helping you regain control to survive.

good find

aerial-jump > dodge-jump

Does the aerial actually reduce any momentum or does it just give you control quicker?

It gives control quicker.

 

[J4pu]

I played a sonic who was in the habit of using upB whenever he became close to being Start-KOed, and I could swear he should have died multiple times and yet didn't, granted this was a while back before I completely understood DI but do you think UpB's that give your character complete control back would be useful when nearing the Star KO blastzone? Since it seems to me you need to be in hitstun or tumble to die off the top.

 

[Tomato Kirby]

Interesting...

Now I can stop using the primitive air-dodge to jump. Nice to have video proof.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Can anybody be awesome and make (or start) a list of aerials for every character that end earlier than their airdodge? Preferably in order of fastest to slowest if they have multiple attacks that end earlier.

 

[Oathblivion]

Lucario has three, according to the frame data topic.

Airdodge

Total: 39 Frames
Invincible 4-29

Dair

Total: 28 frames
Hitbox out on: 4
Hitbox in on:

Fair

Total: 27 frames
Hitbox out on: 8
Hitbox in on:

Uair

Total: 35 frames
Hitbox out on: 10
Hitbox in on:

 

[infomon]

Ulevo, thanks for the clarifications! This is quite interesting. I'll try and get data as Samurai suggests for my mains at least... not sure of a fool-proof way to do it aside from going 1/4 speed on training mode and mostly guessing which ones come out faster than the airdodge... or is there a better way? I don't have a tv tuner yet, so I can't get frame-accurate data.

 

[Ulevo]

Can anybody be awesome and make (or start) a list of aerials for every character that end earlier than their airdodge? Preferably in order of fastest to slowest if they have multiple attacks that end earlier.

What purpose would that serve Panda? We would only need one attack per character to use. Unless you have something else in mind?

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Wow. I never actually noticed the addition of the list to the front post. Nevermind then ^_^''

Although, you'd need to know the frame the moves come out on, and the frame that they end (or are interruptable by). For example, Snake's Nair comes out relatively quickly, but it doesn't end for quite some time. How long the attack lasts is the most important value to consider in this case, rather than just when it starts.

 

[Ulevo]

Wow. I never actually noticed the addition of the list to the front post. Nevermind then ^_^''

Although, you'd need to know the frame the moves come out on, and the frame that they end (or are interruptable by). For example, Snake's Nair comes out relatively quickly, but it doesn't end for quite some time. How long the attack lasts is the most important value to consider in this case, rather than just when it starts.

That may be the case, but I am not totally sure considering what I just tested now.

Okay. I took Lucario onto FD with G&W and set the damage to 57% for Lucario.

Keep in mind that Lucarios Dair and Fair are 1 Frame apart from start up (so they'd be near identical in start up), but 4 Frames apart on cool down time.

I had G&W hit Lucario with an FSmash. I was able to survive both blows with both attacks. However, when I brought it up to 58%, I couldn't survive using either aerials.

I would have thought that since Lucarios Dair had 4 Frames more to finish than the Fair, I would be able to live to a higher % using the Fair, but I died anyway. This may suggest that it is only the start up time that has to be considered. I'm not entirely sure. The numbers are too tight to tell, but it's what I got.

I need someone to give me a character that has two attacks of the same start up Frames, but one with low cool down time and one with large cool down time (about 10 Frames or so more). Once I test that I'll be able to determine what exactly is important to look at here. I just don't know Frames for most characters.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

For examples sake, lets say a Marth were to die guaranteed at 100% from a Dedede Jet Hammer in the middle of Final Destination. If I were to spam his Fair once being sent flying, as soon as I executed the Fair, I would regain my momentum and be able to hault my trajectory sooner, allowing me to survive longer. Where as I would have died at 100%, I may live to 90% or 91%.

This part confuses me to no end. If you die at 100% why would it change anything at 91%? thats like saying Uair kills you at 200% but if you attack you'll live at 60%, when you wouldn't die at 60% in the first place.

 

[Ulevo]

This part confuses me to no end. If you die at 100% why would it change anything at 91%? thats like saying Uair kills you at 200% but if you attack you'll live at 60%, when you wouldn't die at 60% in the first place.

That was me being dumb. Switch those numbers around.

 

[Johnny_C]

My friends and I always use Aerials to recover balance (Or t least it feels like it helps). The best way to recover is Airdoge with a fast Aerials.

 

[TwinkleToes]

I played a sonic who was in the habit of using upB whenever he became close to being Start-KOed, and I could swear he should have died multiple times and yet didn't, granted this was a while back before I completely understood DI but do you think UpB's that give your character complete control back would be useful when nearing the Star KO blastzone? Since it seems to me you need to be in hitstun or tumble to die off the top.

Sonic cannot die over the top out of his up-b. That's something we discovered a long *** time ago. Same thing seems to be true with a lot of characters (all of 'em probably but most will never really know lol) but it's pretty useful for Sonic because of how fast it is. Essentially if you meteor cancel with your up-b you are going to be surviving vertical ko's until the meteor cancel point is past the blast-line.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Magus's frame data for Luigi's aerials.

N-Air

Total: 45
Hit: 3-31 (Strong 3-6; Weak 7-31)
IASA: N/A
Auto Cancel: <2 36>
Landlag: 14
Landlag IASA: 11

Hitlag: 10 (strong); 7 (weak)
Shield Stun: 4 (strong); 2 (weak)
Advantage: -6 (strong); -8 (weak)
-------------------------------------------------------
U-Air

Total: 33
Hit: 5-11 (Strong 5-7; Weak 8-11)
IASA: 30
Auto Cancel: 19>
Landlag: 23
Landlag IASA: 14

Hitlag: 10 (strong); 7 (weak)
Shield Stun: 4 (strong); 2 (weak)
Advantage: -9 (strong); -11 (weak)
-------------------------------------------------------
B-Air

Total: 46
Hit: 6-16 (Strong 6-10; Weak 11-16)
IASA: 37
Auto Cancel: <5 33>
Landlag: 17
Landlag IASA: 13

Hitlag: 9 (strong); 8 (weak)
Shield Stun: 4 (strong); 2 (weak)
Advantage: -8 (strong); -10 (weak)
-------------------------------------------------------
D-Air

Total: 32
Hit: 10-14
IASA: 29
Auto Cancel: <5 24>
Landlag: 17
Landlag IASA: 13

Hitlag: 9
Shield Stun: 3
Advantage: -9
-------------------------------------------------------
F-Air

Total: 35
Hit: 7-10
IASA: 24
Auto Cancel: 21>
Landlag: 30
Landlag IASA: 23

Hitlag: 8
Shield Stun: 3
Advantage: -19

 

[BentoBox]

Peach's aerials frame data (credits go to niko k)

Aerials

Credit to 3GOD for this data. Landing lag represents the amount of lag the aerial has when landed without auto-cancelling.

Nair:
First hits on frame 3
Landing lag: 11
Hit lag: 9 (first hit)
Shield stun: 12 (first hit)
Advantage: -8

Dair:
First hits on frame 12
Landing lag: 9
Hit lag: 6 (last hit)
Shield stun: 7 (last hit)
Advantage: -8

Fair:
First hits on frame 16
Landing lag: 22 (auto-cancels on frame 20 and after)
Hit lag: 9
Shield stun: 13
Advantage: -18 (if auto-canceled, advantage is 0)

Bair:
First hits on frame 6
Landing lag: 9
Hit lag: 10 (first hit)
Shield stun: 15 (first hit)
Advantage: -4

Uair:
First hits on frame 8
Landing lag: 9
Hit lag: 9
Shield stun: 11
Advantage: -7
[\quote]

N-air.

 

[infomon]

Sonic cannot die over the top out of his up-b. That's something we discovered a long *** time ago. Same thing seems to be true with a lot of characters (all of 'em probably but most will never really know lol) but it's pretty useful for Sonic because of how fast it is. Essentially if you meteor cancel with your up-b you are going to be surviving vertical ko's until the meteor cancel point is past the blast-line.

Actually, I didn't know that, and I read all the Sonic guides and he's my new main So holy crap thanks, I didn't know that actually worked

But what's this about meteor cancelling? Doesn't that only exist when you're shot straight down vertically, ie. meteored?? In which case you shouldn't be hitting the upwards vertical blast-line... so I'm confused....

My friends and I always use Aerials to recover balance (Or t least it feels like it helps). The best way to recover is Airdoge with a fast Aerials.

Huh? This thread should be teaching you that you shouldn't airdodge at all to help recover...

Ulevo: I don't understand your G&W/Lucario test. Are you fully charging the Fsmash? Which side of FD?

 

[ph00tbag]

I actually wasn't fast falling at all. I was just holding down the entire time, mostly to help ZSS stay in Zeldas USmash properly so she didn't go flying in wonky directions.

Then the game would still think you were fast falling. The way the game inputs the C-stick is like a tap on the control stick plus A, so this is what the game read:

Frame x-2: tilt down
Frame x-1: tilt down
Frame x: tap up + A
Frame x+1: tap down
Frame x+2: tilt down

 

[chimpact]

I've repeatedly said, the momentum giving one does nothing more than a regular aerial of the same speed. It doesn't do anything more to help you.

I will not repeat myself again.



The flashing animation of the Air Dodge is totally unimportant. What's actually relevant is the point at which you can perform another action after the Air Dodge, which in this case, would be jumping.

And Meta Knights Uair is nowhere near close to the frames of a dodge. You're just making assumptions now based on your personal biased gameplay experience and not actual facts.

If you try to short hop air dodge with Meta Knight, and then perform another aerial, such as a Nair, you can't. You simply can't. Meta Knight can short hop triple Uair. You're nuts if you think he has just as much frame rate as an air dodge.

And that's not just Meta Knight. Toon Link can short hop double bair. Marth can short hop double fair. There are a plethora of characters that can do multiple aerials in a short hop, meanwhile being unable to use another attack after an air dodge during a short hop, which logically indicates its cool down frames are significantly more than most aerials, and certainly more than the aerials you would be using to slow your momentum.

Don't call me biased until you actually provide me with something that makes sense.

So if you can SHD(aerial) you should always use that move when trying to get back on the stage?

 

[Flayl]

Bowser: Fair
Kirby: Bair
ROB: Fair

Those are self-evident.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Kirby could also have Uair.

 

[infomon]

Although Kirby's Bair seems to finish a little quicker than his Uair, and most of the time it would be better to use whatever's fastest. Although, I suppose it would be good to add to the list all of the aerials that are faster than airdodging (with frame data as it is made known), because of the regular DI that might come into effect when using the aerial. You might prefer to use Kirby's Uair if you're headed towards the horizontal blast-zone, for example.... situation depending.

 

[FBM]

No.

Air Dodging is bad, bad, bad bad bad, bad baddie bad and bad.

No.

Stick with aerials, no matter what the circumstance. They are superior in every possible way.

And sorry for keeping the damage building process in the video. I just wanted to make sure you guys understood how I got to that point so I didn't get anymore stupid accusations like not committing suicide to refresh moves and et cetera.



I have yet to try them, but my assumption is that they do not activate nearly as fast as standard attacks. And even if they activated at around the same speed, I don't think reversing your momentum would do anything, since moves with fast fall properties, as clearly shown in the video, do nada.

I'll have to record a video of dodge/jump saving me while MK's uair doesn't. Maybe I'm somehow inputing something wrong, but i tried this extensively and the dodge/jump always worked when i timed it right and the u-air failed 100% of the time.

It's nice to see your "proof" but it doesn't necessarily disprove my "proof," which is too bad, b/c I would like a concrete answer. Anyway, I'll work on it in the next day or two.

 

[Yuna]

Sonic cannot die over the top out of his up-b. That's something we discovered a long *** time ago. Same thing seems to be true with a lot of characters (all of 'em probably but most will never really know lol) but it's pretty useful for Sonic because of how fast it is. Essentially if you meteor cancel with your up-b you are going to be surviving vertical ko's until the meteor cancel point is past the blast-line.

You cannot die by Up B:ing off the blast zones yourself. You cannot die from jumping either. You cannot from by anything which is an action initiated by yourself. This is why things like the Luigi Ladder works.

...
...

Unless it's a vertically scrolling stage.

 

[Flayl]

Although Kirby's Bair seems to finish a little quicker than his Uair, and most of the time it would be better to use whatever's fastest. Although, I suppose it would be good to add to the list all of the aerials that are faster than airdodging (with frame data as it is made known), because of the regular DI that might come into effect when using the aerial. You might prefer to use Kirby's Uair if you're headed towards the horizontal blast-zone, for example.... situation depending.

You're suppose to DI with your control stick and C-stick for the fastest aerial.

 

[TwinkleToes]

You cannot die by Up B:ing off the blast zones yourself. You cannot die from jumping either. You cannot from by anything which is an action initiated by yourself. This is why things like the Luigi Ladder works.

...
...

Unless it's a vertically scrolling stage.

Preeeetty sure I've killed myself over the top with the Wario Waft lol.

But I mostly have noticed that is correct, it just rarely ever matters. Usually when you're that close to the top blast-line you're about to die.

 

[Ulevo]

My friends and I always use Aerials to recover balance (Or t least it feels like it helps). The best way to recover is Airdoge with a fast Aerials.

Read the thread.

Actually, I didn't know that, and I read all the Sonic guides and he's my new main So holy crap thanks, I didn't know that actually worked

But what's this about meteor cancelling? Doesn't that only exist when you're shot straight down vertically, ie. meteored?? In which case you shouldn't be hitting the upwards vertical blast-line... so I'm confused....



Huh? This thread should be teaching you that you shouldn't airdodge at all to help recover...

Ulevo: I don't understand your G&W/Lucario test. Are you fully charging the Fsmash? Which side of FD?

It was on the right side of FD. I use the C Stick for Smashes always so I don't overcharge the Smash and alter my results. I also DI'd down.

Then the game would still think you were fast falling. The way the game inputs the C-stick is like a tap on the control stick plus A, so this is what the game read:

Frame x-2: tilt down
Frame x-1: tilt down
Frame x: tap up + A
Frame x+1: tap down
Frame x+2: tilt down

I still do not see how what you're saying make sense.

If you hold down during the time you're aerial, and you perform any action, including Dairs, you will not fast fall. It is only when you have it set to the neutral position on your stick when you fast fall after inputting down on the anolog stick or C Stick. Even then, you have to hit the apex of your trajectory before you can fast fall, not anytime before. In the example I showed, I used the Uair prior to the apex. So it's all irrelevant anyway.

You can clearly see in the video that I'm not fast falling at all.

So if you can SHD(aerial) you should always use that move when trying to get back on the stage?

Not necessarily. You want to use your fasest aerial possible. There are aerials that you can't SHD, but are still faster than an Air Dodge (Almost if not every aerial is anyway). On the flip side, if you have two attacks you can SHD, you want to use the faster of the two.

I was merely using that as an example to show how slow Air Dodging is in comparison to aerials in a simple manner.

I'll have to record a video of dodge/jump saving me while MK's uair doesn't. Maybe I'm somehow inputing something wrong, but i tried this extensively and the dodge/jump always worked when i timed it right and the u-air failed 100% of the time.

It's nice to see your "proof" but it doesn't necessarily disprove my "proof," which is too bad, b/c I would like a concrete answer. Anyway, I'll work on it in the next day or two.

Do what you want, but I don't even know why you're still debating this. The entire point of this was to show that aerials are the superior method of regaining control in the air to help you survive. I've clearly showed that in my video. How does my proof not disprove your "proof"? You can't have it both ways. I've showed it in every possible angle you could be sent at and proved it works in every situation.

Unless I've screwed up in each example, which is highly unlikely, you're just holding on to strings now. This is a concrete answer.

 

[Sgt Isaac]

The one way I have found this to be useful is in snake vs. DK matchups. Whenever I get Utitlted, I always Di directly away from the snake(horizontally) and use my fair/bair as soon as possible. I have tested and found I have lived much more by attacking than airdodging.

 

[Ulevo]

Oh, I have a question for anyone who can answer me.

One of the reasons why it took so long to put up the video was because I kept having to retest the percent at which characters die in. Normally, I would go into Training mode and set the damage, use the attack, and repeat until I found the percent needed to kill the character.

I did this with ZSS and Zelda, and it worked fine when I went into Vs Mode.

However, when I did this with Fox and Meta Knight, I noticed when I went into Vs Mode, Meta Knight would die at least 10% sooner than he did in Training, almost as if the move was stronger in Vs mode. This messed with my testing, and caused delays since I had to find it manually in Vs Mode.

Does anyone know what's going on here?

 

[Adapt]

I haven't see a 10% difference before, but there are several moves that act differently in vs mode than in training mode. Samus's charge shot and Bowser's F-Smash are two examples.

It doesn't make any sense, and no one has a logical explanation (besides they coded it differently), but it does happen.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Is it possible that Stale Move Negation is having an effect in Vs Mode? Stale Move Negation does not take place in Training Mode if I remember correctly

Edit: Or are you killing someone then reseting the game so Slate Move Negation doesn't take place? If so, my mistake and I haven't a clue :/

 

[CaliburChamp]

What about Kirby's aerial hammer for recovery? It gives him forward momentum. IMO f-air is the second best choice. Special moves also help you to stay alive longer.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Oh, I have a question for anyone who can answer me.

One of the reasons why it took so long to put up the video was because I kept having to retest the percent at which characters die in. Normally, I would go into Training mode and set the damage, use the attack, and repeat until I found the percent needed to kill the character.

I did this with ZSS and Zelda, and it worked fine when I went into Vs Mode.

However, when I did this with Fox and Meta Knight, I noticed when I went into Vs Mode, Meta Knight would die at least 10% sooner than he did in Training, almost as if the move was stronger in Vs mode. This messed with my testing, and caused delays since I had to find it manually in Vs Mode.

Does anyone know what's going on here?

Training mode is pretty screwed up. The percents are all slightly different and IIRC attacks are slightly weaker (maybe so people can have fun combo'ing in training mode without actually affecting the versus mode?).

Also, you can set handicaps in versus mode so you don't have to manually damage opponents like you did in the video.

 

[ArcPoint]

Oh, I have a question for anyone who can answer me.

One of the reasons why it took so long to put up the video was because I kept having to retest the percent at which characters die in. Normally, I would go into Training mode and set the damage, use the attack, and repeat until I found the percent needed to kill the character.

I did this with ZSS and Zelda, and it worked fine when I went into Vs Mode.

However, when I did this with Fox and Meta Knight, I noticed when I went into Vs Mode, Meta Knight would die at least 10% sooner than he did in Training, almost as if the move was stronger in Vs mode. This messed with my testing, and caused delays since I had to find it manually in Vs Mode.

Does anyone know what's going on here?

Moves actually are stronger in Vs mode than in training mode, but only by a fraction, and I'm serious. I'm sure that fraction of a percent has some effect on the knockback of the move.

If you really want proof of this, go into Vs Mode with Wolf (Which is how I found this out) And Do a Dsmash on the other character, it should do 14%. Now, kill yourself as Wolf and then come back and do a Dsmash again, the character's percentage should now be at 29% instead of the expected 28%.

So yeah, that might have affected your results. I don't really know if Fox's Dsmash has fractional damage as well... I'd have to test that =P

 

[Fizzi]

Unfortunately my internet is screwy atm and I was unable to read 2 of the pages in this thread. That said, you have continuously stated that the aerial itself does not affect momentum. I wonder how you can say this when it is clear that certain aerials do affect momentum. The best example I can give is Snake's dair. Use it when being sent flying diagonally and you will see a clear momentum shift (the move gives you downward momentum). It is most useful for saving snake from getting star KOed. Unfortunately I don't know the frame rate at which the move comes out but how come dair will prevent a star KO whereas bair will do nothing?

You've also stated that the fastest aerial coming out is the best one, but you haven't completely clarified why. Is it because you regain your ability to control your character in the air as soon at the aerial starts or is it only after it ends? And air dodging does not produce the same result? So you regain control instantly when the aerial first comes out and not when it ends?

 

[infomon]

You've also stated that the fastest aerial coming out is the best one, but you haven't completely clarified why. Is it because you regain your ability to control your character in the air as soon at the aerial starts or is it only after it ends? And air dodging does not produce the same result? So you regain control instantly when the aerial first comes out and not when it ends?

No, it's been said that the aerial that finishes the soonest is the best, because when it's over you have regained aerial control, and can use a midair jump to avoid the blastline, etc. Airdodging is worse because everyone (presumably?) has an aerial that would finish faster than their airdodge.

 

[RDK]

Oh, I have a question for anyone who can answer me.

One of the reasons why it took so long to put up the video was because I kept having to retest the percent at which characters die in. Normally, I would go into Training mode and set the damage, use the attack, and repeat until I found the percent needed to kill the character.

I did this with ZSS and Zelda, and it worked fine when I went into Vs Mode.

However, when I did this with Fox and Meta Knight, I noticed when I went into Vs Mode, Meta Knight would die at least 10% sooner than he did in Training, almost as if the move was stronger in Vs mode. This messed with my testing, and caused delays since I had to find it manually in Vs Mode.

Does anyone know what's going on here?

Attacks are stronger in Vs. mode for some reason, and there is also no stale move negation in Training mode. I have no idea why they did this; maybe it was an error, or something they overlooked due to lazy programming.

Which basically means practicing combos and otherwise collecting data in Training mode is inaccurate or generally useless when applied to Vs. mode. Kinda dumb.