Deleted

[J4pu]

Does repeating your aerial ever help? or is 1 aerial the max help you will get?
If repeated aerials are useful then it isn't only fastest aerial to come out, but rather a combination with fastest aerial to finish.

EDIT- after reading the 2nd page of this thread it sounds like Jumping is the optimal action after gaining control, but say you are off the stage far and don't want to kill your 2nd jump, would using another aerial after the first one be of any benefit?

 

[FBM]

First off, why would you Smash DI? It's only going to randomly alter the results unless you Smash DI the same each time, which is rather difficult to accomplish for human testing.

And why you think that you have to DI specifically in order to maximize the Air Dodge + Jump is beyond me. Also, did you try to use your (what I call) aerial influence after using the Air Dodge + Jump and using the Uair to effect your results? Because if not, you're going to get results like that.

The entire point of using aerials is so you regain control in the air, or you regain your ability to influence yourself through the air to slow momentum down, which Air Dodging doesn't do and Jumping does to very, very minimal effect.

Why smash DI? Because I want to reproduce in-game results, where I would be trying to smash DI. And because it's easy to do in tests. I had my trials set up so that if I missed a smash DI, I would be dead. And it's pretty obvious from the path my character takes through the air whether or not I DI'd.

The "aerial influence" you are talking about is called "normal DI," and I used it in every trial.

I understand the point you are making: aerials are the fastest thing to do in the air, but you are missing something very important here: if you are air dodge, you will be done dodging and able to jump sooner than if you use aerials. It's the jump that really saves you because it MOVES you forward, even if it comes out later than the aerial. The motion of the jump, even though it comes out later, is more important (I guess) than the control given by the aerial. And again, air dodge gets you your jump fastest.

But again, if you can help it and not burn a jump, aerials ARE better because the difference is so slight. And if you are being hit upwards at low % and you want to try to prevent being combo'd, then an aerial is usually a better bet than an air dodge, because it happens so much sooner.

Anyway, I could be wrong, but that's just my understanding of it all.

 

[Ulevo]

I heard that using Lucario's Dair does NOT slow your momentum. It's on the Luc boards. I don't really know though, it seems like dair should work.

It doesn't slow your momentum down anymore than another aerial of the same frame rate. If it were to come out on frame 4, and so did his Fair, they will be equally effective at slowing momentum. It's stalling trait does nothing to help this while in hitstun, or coming out of it.

Make sure Zelda SDs before retesting, Einstein. On that note, I tried this out with the rear of Zamus' fsmash (it has a much lower KGR than Zelda's usmash, so there's less of a discrepancy in launch speed at each percent, thus making your results much more accurate), and found that realistically, there is no advantage gained from any aerial when hit straight up.


My understanding is that you can airdodge before you can attack, meaning that if the timing is right for it, you could conceivably finish the airdodge before the attack. Or maybe simply jumping is best. I'm not clear on the details here.

I did this in training mode, thus there was no need to suicide, einstein. Don't assume I'm stupid. And if you looked at the other results I posted, which is at a total of three now, Zelda is not the only one I tested.

Also, you can't use Air Dodges before an attack.

Does repeating your aerial ever help? or is 1 aerial the max help you will get?
If repeated aerials are useful then it isn't only fastest aerial to come out, but rather a combination with fastest aerial to finish.

EDIT- after reading the 2nd page of this thread it sounds like Jumping is the optimal action after gaining control, but say you are off the stage far and don't want to kill your 2nd jump, would using another aerial after the first one be of any benefit?

No, repeated aerials are not useful. Only use one.

Why smash DI? Because I want to reproduce in-game results, where I would be trying to smash DI. And because it's easy to do in tests. I had my trials set up so that if I missed a smash DI, I would be dead. And it's pretty obvious from the path my character takes through the air whether or not I DI'd.

The "aerial influence" you are talking about is called "normal DI," and I used it in every trial.

I understand the point you are making: aerials are the fastest thing to do in the air, but you are missing something very important here: if you are air dodge, you will be done dodging and able to jump sooner than if you use aerials. It's the jump that really saves you because it MOVES you forward, even if it comes out later than the aerial. The motion of the jump, even though it comes out later, is more important (I guess) than the control given by the aerial. And again, air dodge gets you your jump fastest.

But again, if you can help it and not burn a jump, aerials ARE better because the difference is so slight. And if you are being hit upwards at low % and you want to try to prevent being combo'd, then an aerial is usually a better bet than an air dodge, because it happens so much sooner.

Anyway, I could be wrong, but that's just my understanding of it all.

Your reasoning still doesn't warrant why you used Smash DI for the purpose of confirming or debunking the method I've mentioned, as it still only adds one more unneccessary element to factor in, but how you test is your business I suppose.

And you're wrong. Air Dodges do not finish sooner. Are you going to tell me that an Air Dodges frame rate is less than that of Meta Knights Uair? Or Toon Links Bair? Or Marths Fair? Et cetera? You're kidding, right?

 

[gallax]

i actually have to agree with yuna on this one. we may have had our differences in the past, but airdodgin>2nd jump is the way to go. and jumping does have an effect on your momentum.

 

[IDK]

are you sure it's the fastest aerial you should use? or the most momentum giving one. TL's dair seems to work pretty well because of the huge fast fall.

 

[Mario_ 101]

LOL i just use b airs with mario when coming back to discourage edgeguarding.

 

[FBM]

Your reasoning still doesn't warrant why you used Smash DI for the purpose of confirming or debunking the method I've mentioned, as it still only adds one more unneccessary element to factor in, but how you test is your business I suppose.

And you're wrong. Air Dodges do not finish sooner. Are you going to tell me that an Air Dodges frame rate is less than that of Meta Knights Uair? Or Toon Links Bair? Or Marths Fair? Et cetera? You're kidding, right?

As far as confirming and debunking go, I want to minimize the variables. It's easy to tell when I've applied a set DI and it applies to a realistic situation so I use it.

As far as the frame data is concerned, I'm basing it on the second video Cake posted, which I saw awhile ago. It's hard to watch it frame by frame, but in the dodge/attack overlay there is what looks like to me a frame where the air dodge has finished it's flashing animation but attack animation still has the sword out. Maybe my eyes are wrong, but again, this is what my test data supports, or attacking then jumping would be just as good (or better) than dodging then jumping.

And MK's u-air is pretty close to the frames of a dodge b/c if you go to u-air someone and they air-dodge, you can hit them with a d-air before their can be dodge active again, meaning that the u-air and dodge are extremely close in frame length. Again, try watching the Marth video with unbiased eyes.

 

[Ulevo]

are you sure it's the fastest aerial you should use? or the most momentum giving one. TL's dair seems to work pretty well because of the huge fast fall.

I've repeatedly said, the momentum giving one does nothing more than a regular aerial of the same speed. It doesn't do anything more to help you.

I will not repeat myself again.

As far as confirming and debunking go, I want to minimize the variables. It's easy to tell when I've applied a set DI and it applies to a realistic situation so I use it.

As far as the frame data is concerned, I'm basing it on the second video Cake posted, which I saw awhile ago. It's hard to watch it frame by frame, but in the dodge/attack overlay there is what looks like to me a frame where the air dodge has finished it's flashing animation but attack animation still has the sword out. Maybe my eyes are wrong, but again, this is what my test data supports, or attacking then jumping would be just as good (or better) than dodging then jumping.

And MK's u-air is pretty close to the frames of a dodge b/c if you go to u-air someone and they air-dodge, you can hit them with a d-air before their can be dodge active again, meaning that the u-air and dodge are extremely close in frame length. Again, try watching the Marth video with unbiased eyes.

The flashing animation of the Air Dodge is totally unimportant. What's actually relevant is the point at which you can perform another action after the Air Dodge, which in this case, would be jumping.

And Meta Knights Uair is nowhere near close to the frames of a dodge. You're just making assumptions now based on your personal biased gameplay experience and not actual facts.

If you try to short hop air dodge with Meta Knight, and then perform another aerial, such as a Nair, you can't. You simply can't. Meta Knight can short hop triple Uair. You're nuts if you think he has just as much frame rate as an air dodge.

And that's not just Meta Knight. Toon Link can short hop double bair. Marth can short hop double fair. There are a plethora of characters that can do multiple aerials in a short hop, meanwhile being unable to use another attack after an air dodge during a short hop, which logically indicates its cool down frames are significantly more than most aerials, and certainly more than the aerials you would be using to slow your momentum.

Don't call me biased until you actually provide me with something that makes sense.

 

[manhunter098]

As far as confirming and debunking go, I want to minimize the variables. It's easy to tell when I've applied a set DI and it applies to a realistic situation so I use it.

As far as the frame data is concerned, I'm basing it on the second video Cake posted, which I saw awhile ago. It's hard to watch it frame by frame, but in the dodge/attack overlay there is what looks like to me a frame where the air dodge has finished it's flashing animation but attack animation still has the sword out. Maybe my eyes are wrong, but again, this is what my test data supports, or attacking then jumping would be just as good (or better) than dodging then jumping.

And MK's u-air is pretty close to the frames of a dodge b/c if you go to u-air someone and they air-dodge, you can hit them with a d-air before their can be dodge active again, meaning that the u-air and dodge are extremely close in frame length. Again, try watching the Marth video with unbiased eyes.

Im pretty sure Marths f-air has IASA frames. Furthermore just because your character stopped flashing doesnt mean your air dodge is finished. All it means is that your character is no longer invincible, there are still a number of frames after you stop flashing where you cant do anything after having air dodged. Also, you can pull off about 3 u-air with Metaknight before an air dodge finishes. It is probably the fastest aerial in the game and its at least in the top 5.

 

[FBM]

The flashing animation of the Air Dodge is totally unimportant. What's actually relevant is the point at which you can perform another action after the Air Dodge, which in this case, would be jumping.

And Meta Knights Uair is nowhere near close to the frames of a dodge. You're just making assumptions now based on your personal biased gameplay experience and not actual facts.

If you try to short hop air dodge with Meta Knight, and then perform another aerial, such as a Nair, you can't. You simply can't. Meta Knight can short hop triple Uair. You're nuts if you think he has just as much frame rate as an air dodge.

And that's not just Meta Knight. Toon Link can short hop double bair. Marth can short hop double fair. There are a plethora of characters that can do multiple aerials in a short hop, meanwhile being unable to use another attack after an air dodge during a short hop, which logically indicates its cool down frames are significantly more than most aerials, and certainly more than the aerials you would be using to slow your momentum.

Don't call me biased until you actually provide me with something that makes sense.

Haha, ya I dunno what I was thinking when I wrote that last post. I guess after a few drinks Ganon's utilt seems as fast as MK's uair.

Anyway, pardon all my dumb-*** conjecture. As far as stuff that makes sense goes, I still stand by my test results, which took over an hour and were done with a clear head.

 

[Ulevo]

Could someone please be kind enough to let me know if they have a video recording device that is sufficient so I can send them a replay and have it youtubed?

I am tired of this garbage. I am discussing logical points and giving concrete examples of what it is I am trying to contribute only to be refuted by claims along the lines of "yeah, well it doesn't work because I just don't think so". The videos provided so far have disproved nothing that I have mentioned, and the arguments against have either been derived from "personal experience" or poor testing.

I need videos. Someone give me a hand.

EDIT: And FBM, how testing something as simplistic as this took you an hour with "a clear head" is beyond me. I did this in ten minutes.

 

[Steel]

Ulevo, I can help you out tonight. Hit me up on aim.

 

[DanGR]

I do this with Olimar, though I'm not sure if it helps. It seems like it does though. Oli's fair has similar physics to Marth's fair.

Jigg's pound helps her tremendously for this as well.

 

[FBM]

Could someone please be kind enough to let me know if they have a video recording device that is sufficient so I can send them a replay and have it youtubed?

I am tired of this garbage. I am discussing logical points and giving concrete examples of what it is I am trying to contribute only to be refuted by claims along the lines of "yeah, well it doesn't work because I just don't think so". The videos provided so far have disproved nothing that I have mentioned, and the arguments against have either been derived from "personal experience" or poor testing.

I need videos. Someone give me a hand.

EDIT: And FBM, how testing something as simplistic as this took you an hour with "a clear head" is beyond me. I did this in ten minutes.

I ran lots of trials from different positions using different characters, different attacks, and different DI, so that I could be sure that I'm doing everything correctly and getting consistent results (and it's fun to screw around in training sometimes ). Despite some of my obviously moronic claims, don't think I spent a few seconds on this and now I'm trying to win some silly argument. I'd really just like to know which is right so I can do that in games, even if I make a total fool of myself in the process.

And even if I'm right about dodge/jumping, I'm still going to be using the aerial method you suggest because it's better in a lot of situations, namely when I'm using ZSS and need to regain control off the stage ASAP but don't want to use my jumps prematurely, so thank you for bringing this up.

 

[Ulevo]

I'll make sure to do that Steel.

I do this with Olimar, though I'm not sure if it helps. It seems like it does though. Oli's fair has similar physics to Marth's fair.

Jigg's pound helps her tremendously for this as well.

I am not sure if special attacks act in the same way as standard aerials. I don't think they do, but I've never tried. Unless you're misunderstanding what I am trying to say.

 

[MarKO X]

I am not sure if special attacks act in the same way as standard aerials. I don't think they do, but I've never tried. Unless you're misunderstanding what I am trying to say.

The thing with specials is that they tend to come out slower than regular aerials. For example, with Sonic... Homing Attack, Spring Jump, and both special Spins can stop sonic's momentum... the question is can you get it off fast enough and effective enough?

but that's a different test...keep working on the regular aerials (or getting the replays put up, as you seem to have already gotten the results and just need to get the proof up). I'm very interested to see what you've got, as this will make Brawl matches even longer than they already are.

 

[Ulevo]

Alright, I've sent three replays to Steel. He'll update to youtube once he has them and has the time. There are three videos all showcasing how aerials effect your ability to live vs Air Dodging + Jumping.

 

[J0RDY]

I was doing some research on Falco's killing percentages for his Fsmash on lvl 9s. it was all what I expected with the weight to kill percentage ratio, till I got to Diddy. The lvl 9 Air dodged, then used his side b, reversing his momentum. This made him last longer than all the heavy weights trying to AD-jump.

 

[Veggi]

I've been doing attacks rather than air-dodging, but from the looks of it, I've been doing it wrong. I used to just use all of my mains fair, unless I was going off the top, where I would use dair. For all situations, would using the fastest move be the best? (ex. DK's bair when going off the side as well as top)

 

[Ulevo]

I've been doing attacks rather than air-dodging, but from the looks of it, I've been doing it wrong. I used to just use all of my mains fair, unless I was going off the top, where I would use dair. For all situations, would using the fastest move be the best? (ex. DK's bair when going off the side as well as top)

Yes, the fastest aerial is the best choice in all situations. You will see what I mean when Steel is finished uploading them, which shouldn't be too much longer.

 

[Veggi]

Yes, the fastest aerial is the best choice in all situations. You will see what I mean when Steel is finished uploading them, which shouldn't be too much longer.

That's good.

Spoiler

Hiding the fact all of my mains have slow fairs.

 

[Steel]

You can all blame youtube for the delay.

 

[K 2]

Oh wow, that was really helpful. I've always learned to airdodge and slam the control stick towards the stage. I'll start using aerials for now on. I characters I use (pika and G&W mostly) are really light and die at around 90-100%, so this should help them survive at bit longer.

 

[Ulevo]

There. You should have all the proof you need now, people.

Props to Steel.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

So performing the fastest aerial is best when sent flying. Now to figure out the fastest aerial for every character.

 

[rm88]

Well, Nair is the fastest most of the times.

 

[OmegaXF]

Yeah I agree with you. Aerials have bigger impacts on momentum.

 

[Crizthakidd]

one thing, i think that if you KNOW your going to die which you have to like think about in half a second you need to airdodge di right and jump, then you dont have a second jump tho....

if you can live the attack, airal your way back and then u still got ur jump + UP b.

theres 2 choices for 2 diff things.


what if u airdodge immediatly then start using arias with proper DI

 

[Tenki]

arghh I just fastforwarded all the damagebuilding, it was so boring.

Interesting lol.
---------------------



I haven't tried this yet, but does B-reversing cause your trajectory to reverse, by any chance?

 

[Ulevo]

one thing, i think that if you KNOW your going to die which you have to like think about in half a second you need to airdodge di right and jump, then you dont have a second jump tho....

if you can live the attack, airal your way back and then u still got ur jump + UP b.

theres 2 choices for 2 diff things.


what if u airdodge immediatly then start using arias with proper DI

No.

Air Dodging is bad, bad, bad bad bad, bad baddie bad and bad.

No.

Stick with aerials, no matter what the circumstance. They are superior in every possible way.

And sorry for keeping the damage building process in the video. I just wanted to make sure you guys understood how I got to that point so I didn't get anymore stupid accusations like not committing suicide to refresh moves and et cetera.

I haven't tried this yet, but does B-reversing cause your trajectory to reverse, by any chance?

I have yet to try them, but my assumption is that they do not activate nearly as fast as standard attacks. And even if they activated at around the same speed, I don't think reversing your momentum would do anything, since moves with fast fall properties, as clearly shown in the video, do nada.

 

[ph00tbag]

Huh, that's interesting. I guess you must be fastfalling the uair in the straight up examples, and I wasn't getting that from your description. Good find.

 

[Tristan_win]

Sheik nair is the fastest but the cool down is 3 frames longer then the bair.

Neutral Air
HIT: 2
END: 44 {31}
LAND: 15

Forward Air
HIT: 5
END: 28 {14}
LAND: 15

Back Air
HIT: 3
END: 41 {32}
LAND: 12

Up Air
HIT: 4
END: 42 {29}
LAND: 30

Down Air
HIT: 14
END: 54
LAND: 38

 

[Adapt]

ZSS:

uair comes out in 4 frames
fair, nair come out in 6 frames
dair in 14 frames

I wonder if for horizontal knockback ZSS's down-B would be better because it has a set trajectory like marth's up-B. I believe it has little to no startup as well but I do not have the frame data.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I'm unsure of frame data but I'm pretty sure that Peach's Uair has the shortest Beginning to Ending time - or is it only the move that comes out the fastest that helps the most regardless of how long it lasts? I always spam Uair when I get hit away but I never actually realised it was helping...nice find

Edit: Found the Peach aerial frame data...Credit to NikoK and 3GOD for this data. Landing lag represents the amount of lag the aerial has when landed without auto-cancelling.

Nair:
First hits on frame 3
Landing lag: 11
Hit lag: 9 (first hit)
Shield stun: 12 (first hit)
Advantage: -8

Dair:
First hits on frame 12
Landing lag: 9
Hit lag: 6 (last hit)
Shield stun: 7 (last hit)
Advantage: -8

Fair:
First hits on frame 16
Landing lag: 22 (auto-cancels on frame 20 and after)
Hit lag: 9
Shield stun: 13
Advantage: -18 (if auto-canceled, advantage is 0)

Bair:
First hits on frame 6
Landing lag: 9
Hit lag: 10 (first hit)
Shield stun: 15 (first hit)
Advantage: -4

Uair:
First hits on frame 8
Landing lag: 9
Hit lag: 9
Shield stun: 11
Advantage: -7

So what you're saying is that using Peach's Nair (has the shortest start up time by the looks of things) is better than airdodging when trying to survive?

 

[Crow!]

There are a lot of misconceptions flying around here.. I'll address a few of them with regards to horizontal KO protection:

1. Momentum changing aerials do not change your momentum if executed during the section of being hit during which you cannot jump. This makes them not valid for recovery (Zamus' Dair, for instance, is shown in the OP's video.)

2. The point of air dodging is that you can do a complete air dodge and then jump sooner than you are allowed to start jumping.

3. The point of aerials is that some of them complete even sooner than air dodges, and then you jump.

4. Since the whole point is to jump sooner, you want attacks that end in midair sooner, not ones that come out quick. I.E. for Pikachu, Uair would be ideal while Bair would totally suck.

Question. What determines when you stop being able to be star KO'd? If you jump after a uair after being hit upward, can you kill yourself or could it save you or would you already be immune to death by the time you have the ability to jump?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

There are a lot of misconceptions flying around here.. I'll address a few of them with regards to horizontal KO protection:

1. Momentum changing aerials do not change your momentum if executed during the section of being hit during which you cannot jump. This makes them not valid for recovery (Zamus' Dair, for instance, is shown in the OP's video.)

2. The point of air dodging is that you can do a complete air dodge and then jump sooner than you are allowed to start jumping.

3. The point of aerials is that some of them complete even sooner than air dodges, and then you jump.

4. Since the whole point is to jump sooner, you want attacks that end in midair sooner, not ones that come out quick. I.E. for Pikachu, Uair would be ideal while Bair would totally suck.

Question. What determines when you stop being able to be star KO'd? If you jump after a uair after being hit upward, can you kill yourself or could it save you or would you already be immune to death by the time you have the ability to jump?

I understand the first 3. For the 4th one, would I be correct in using Peach's Uair which has the shortest Beginning to Ending time rather than Peach's Nair that starts sooner but ends later?

 

[Ulevo]

Huh, that's interesting. I guess you must be fastfalling the uair in the straight up examples, and I wasn't getting that from your description. Good find.

I actually wasn't fast falling at all. I was just holding down the entire time, mostly to help ZSS stay in Zeldas USmash properly so she didn't go flying in wonky directions.

There are a lot of misconceptions flying around here.. I'll address a few of them with regards to horizontal KO protection:

1. Momentum changing aerials do not change your momentum if executed during the section of being hit during which you cannot jump. This makes them not valid for recovery (Zamus' Dair, for instance, is shown in the OP's video.)

2. The point of air dodging is that you can do a complete air dodge and then jump sooner than you are allowed to start jumping.

3. The point of aerials is that some of them complete even sooner than air dodges, and then you jump.

4. Since the whole point is to jump sooner, you want attacks that end in midair sooner, not ones that come out quick. I.E. for Pikachu, Uair would be ideal while Bair would totally suck.

Question. What determines when you stop being able to be star KO'd? If you jump after a uair after being hit upward, can you kill yourself or could it save you or would you already be immune to death by the time you have the ability to jump?

The goal isn't to jump sooner, that is just an added benefit to using the aerials, because sometimes the aerials alone just won't cut it and you have to jump. If you noticed in the video with Meta Knight and Fox, I would have died if I didn't jump. In other instances, jumping wouldn't be necessary. It all depends on circumstance, such as how close you are to dying, and how much distance you need to cover to return to the stage.

Also, I believe the faster the attack comes out, the better. But the cool down frames may effect this as well. I'll test it later, actually.

As for the Star KO, I believe you're immune, but there are certain instances where you should be immune and die anyway, such as with G&W's Uair, so why risk it anyway?

For the rest of you guys, thanks for the frame data. I'll update it later when I have time, as I'm busy at the moment.

 

[SUNG475]

So if you do an aerial, will you survive or will the jump immediately after be the best choice?

Or does it matter after you do your 2nd jump after the aerial?

 

[infomon]

Yep, this seems totally legit. Most, if not all, characters have at least one aerial that can finish faster than their air-dodge time. I have a number of questions:

• When you're hit by an attack, you're first in a state of hitlag (where you can smash-DI), then hitstun, then tumble (if you're at high enough percent). It seems like hitstun has two phases: in the first part you can only DI, whereas in the second part you can airdodge or perform an aerial. Is that correct?
  
  
• Once you're in tumble you can use your 2nd jump, or use Specials... Alternatively, I don't think you can Special out of hitstun, am I right?
  
  
• If you're in hitstun and you have an aerial that will finish sooner than your hitstun will end, you should use it, necessarily.
  
  
• Using an aerial (or maybe even an airdodge?), instead of staying in hitstun, gives you back a bit of momentum. At least, this is one of the things Ulevo argues, that the aerial itself inherently returns some momentum, so the more aerials the better (until you have your neutral momentum back). Right?
  
  
• I don't think your 2nd jump immediately returns all momentum back, but it's effective at cancelling most of it (more than an aerial), so jumps are useful if you're going near the horizontal killzone. Using an aerial is probably the most effective way to get your 2nd jump back out of hitstun, unless your hitstun would end sooner than the aerial.
  
  
• If you're going near the vertical killzone, spam aerials as much as possible? (while DI'ing) I don't think you can fastfall unless your vertical speed is close to nil, or if you have a fastfalling aerial, right?

1. Momentum changing aerials do not change your momentum if executed during the section of being hit during which you cannot jump. This makes them not valid for recovery (Zamus' Dair, for instance, is shown in the OP's video.)

I think Ulevo argued that all aerials help give momentum back, although the very momentum-changing aerials don't give you any special bonus in the situation you describe. Although I could just be crazy >.>

So if you do an aerial, will you survive or will the jump immediately after be the best choice?

Or does it matter after you do your 2nd jump after the aerial?

It depends, on what killzone you are near, etc. If I understand correctly...

 

[Adapt]

4. Since the whole point is to jump sooner, you want attacks that end in midair sooner, not ones that come out quick. I.E. for Pikachu, Uair would be ideal while Bair would totally suck.

good point, however i don't think very many boards have the ending data, I think uair for zamus still wins