Decloning Echoes

[Azcorban]

I would like to discuss which changes you would like to make to existing echoes to declone them a bit from the original.

My opinions:

• ():
  • The difference: marth's tipper
  • Change neutral b to a custom special from Smash4.

• ():
  • The difference: none
  • Change down b to constantly pull the same turnip(remove the rng)
  • Change side b to a different launch angle

• ():
  • The difference: Arrow speed/dmg/flexibility & side b launch angle
  • Change neutral b to shoot with his staff instead of the bow (cosmetic change)

• ():
  • The difference: up b
  • Fine as it is?

• ():
  • The difference: all specials have different properties, almost all attacks work slightly differently. Almost no echo at all
  • Fine as it is

• ():
  • The difference: a small height difference, resulting in slightly different hitboxes
  • Change side b to a short DOT burn effect on hit.
  • Change down b to a bomb with a short stun on hit (similar to neutral b or neutral b)

• ():
  • The difference: different properties of their holy water (down b)
  • Change side b to always travel the full distance before returning, regardless of it hit or not. Reduced damage.
  • different launch angles.

Let me know what you think of my ideas, make you own suggestions or tell me why you think the characters shouldn't be changed!

 

[Perkilator]

There was a thread earlier this month about giving Echoes Smash 4’s custom moves. Here were my ideas:

In that case, lemme make some tweaks:


-Dense Charge Shot
-Turbo Missile
-Screw Rush


-Sleepy Toad
-Flower Bomber


-Dashing Assault
-Heavy Blade
-Iai Counter


-Quick Draw
-Effortless Blade


-Impact Orbitars
-Wings of Icarus

Honorable Mentions

-Mega Capsule
-Shocking Sheet
-Ol' One-Two
-Soaring Tornado


-Warlock Blade
-Flame Wave
-Wizard’s Dropkick


-Ice Ball
-Burial Header (but with a sweet spot for the first hit)


-Piercing Bow
-Short-Fused Bomb


-Thunder Wave
-Shocking Skull Bash
-Thunder Burst


-Pound Blitz
-Leaping Rest

 

[Arthur97]

You think too small. Most of the echoes have vast untapped potential beyond a few specials. Though, I've run through Chrom and Lucina so many times by this point.

 

[Azcorban]

There was a thread earlier this month about giving Echoes Smash 4’s custom moves. Here were my ideas:

Oh ofc, I didn't think of that ^^"

That's a great way to easily declone the characters (had to look most of the custom moves up).

Why Jigglypuff and Ganondorf? I think Ganon has been decloned already and Jigglypuff is not a clone at all, is she?

You think too small. Most of the echoes have vast untapped potential beyond a few specials. Though, I've run through Chrom and Lucina so many times by this point.

I'm not saying they don't deserve being proper fighters - most of them do.

But in a realistic view Nintendo is far more likely to tweak a few things here and there, instead of making up a completely new moveset for a character that's already in the game.

 

[Arthur97]

I'm not saying they don't deserve being proper fighters - most of them do.

But in a realistic view Nintendo is far more likely to tweak a few things here and there, instead of making up a completely new moveset for a character that's already in the game.

In a realistic view, I'm not confident they'll get anything with the advent of echoes.

 

[Xelrog]

No. They're echoes because they're low-effort. If they were to invest time and resources into a full character, there are many better options than ANYONE who's currently an echo character.

Don't waste dev time on Daisy when you could be giving me Shantae.

 

[Azcorban]

In a realistic view, I'm not confident they'll get anything with the advent of echoes.

I want to believe in small changes in properties or similar stuff. I don't believe at all in my suggestions. That's not gonna happen

No. They're echoes because they're low-effort. If they were to invest time and resources into a full character, there are many better options than ANYONE who's currently an echo character.

Ofc many of the echoes would have never been in the game if they needed more effort to become a full character.
But the examples of Chrom/Ken/Dark Pit show that echoes - while still being echoes - don't need to be the same exact character.

As for Daisy/Richter/Dark Samus: Why isn't there (a relevant) difference at all? It doesn't matter who you play as because they are basically alts. That's what bugs me. Just give them different launch angles or this kind of small stuff...

 

[THE SLOTH]

I think it's entirely possible to give echoes some diversity, and have them still be low effort investments that give fans more characters they like in Smash without going through the process of making a brand new character. Small things, like changing the damage/knockback/other properties of a move, go a long way into making a new playstyle out of a base character. Take a combo move from the base character and change it into a kill move for the echo or vice versa, speeding up/slowing down the animation but keeping it the same, translate the base character's playstyle as, say, a spacing, neutral-heavy character into one that favors rushdowns, becomes a glass cannon, plays off spacing and a strong neutral even more via exagerrating the base character's skills and weaknesses, etc.

/ and especially / do this well in my opinion, with / and / doing it okay, but /, /, and / all suffer from only having animation and microscopic hitbox changes. I think it's entirely possible in the future that, through patches, echoes could get not buffs/nerfs, but small property changes from their bases that make them more distinct, and give players more of a reason to choose one or the other rather than cosmetics or which one's their waifu/husbando.

 

[Xelrog]

Ofc many of the echoes would have never been in the game if they needed more effort to become a full character.
But the examples of Chrom/Ken/Dark Pit show that echoes - while still being echoes - don't need to be the same exact character.

As for Daisy/Richter/Dark Samus: Why isn't there (a relevant) difference at all? It doesn't matter who you play as because they are basically alts. That's what bugs me. Just give them different launch angles or this kind of small stuff...

I do agree with all that. I just disagree with the abundance of posters who think they should be completely unique characters with all the work put into them.

 

[---]

Lucina/Dark Pit, you could probably give them some of the custom specials they had in Smash 3DS/Wii U.

Daisy I'm surprised they didn't give a different vegetable to (Subcon had more than Turnips). Give her carrots with a different multiplier. Like Electroshock Arm, her Daisy Bomber would probably launch at a different angle. Maybe have Toad give off a different status effect like Peach's custom specials.

Richter maybe change either the Axe or Cross to the Dagger sub-weapon? How about throwing in Maria for a tag team version of Grand Cross?

Dark Samus, I would have taken from her Assist Trophy and changed her D-Smash to the Phazon Tentacles animation.

 

[Azcorban]

I think it's entirely possible to give echoes some diversity, and have them still be low effort investments that give fans more characters they like in Smash without going through the process of making a brand new character. Small things, like changing the damage/knockback/other properties of a move, go a long way into making a new playstyle out of a base character. Take a combo move from the base character and change it into a kill move for the echo or vice versa, speeding up/slowing down the animation but keeping it the same, translate the base character's playstyle as, say, a spacing, neutral-heavy character into one that favors rushdowns, becomes a glass cannon, plays off spacing and a strong neutral even more via exagerrating the base character's skills and weaknesses, etc.

/ and especially / do this well in my opinion, with / and / doing it okay, but /, /, and / all suffer from only having animation and microscopic hitbox changes. I think it's entirely possible in the future that, through patches, echoes could get not buffs/nerfs, but small property changes from their bases that make them more distinct, and give players more of a reason to choose one or the other rather than cosmetics or which one's their waifu/husbando.

The changing of some properties is exactly what I meant, it would help the fighters to not feel like playing the same character, just with different looks.

But I don't think Marth/Lucina do this THAT well. They play the same, just with Lucina being more consistent with her damage output - thus being considered the "better" character. Am I missing some difference between them?

I do agree with all that. I just disagree with the abundance of posters who think they should be completely unique characters with all the work put into them.

Yeah, that's never gonna happen. At least not in Ultimate.
Most of the existing echoes wouldn't exist if they were made full characters. I happily accept them being not TOO different from their originals, but , you can do better than that.

 

[Superxav12]

I say just give Dark Samus some of Samus' old custom moves from smash 4

 

[1FC0]

Daisy needs to lose the Toad!

 

[Plank08]

If I could choose I would do this:
Replace with as an original character, maybe we could work ZSS as an echo.
Should get a triple jump instead of float, and have the physical attacks from melee
Everyone else is fine as is

 

[Azcorban]

Daisy needs to lose the Toad!

But how would you replace it?

 

[1FC0]

But how would you replace it?

For grabbing she could easily just use Peach's original grabs or something like that.

As her B I think it would be cool to either have a reference to her origin game (which is sorely lacking right now) or a Mario Party reference. Even if it's still a counter but just looks like something that Daisy would actually do it would be pretty cool.

I think that Daisy should have a reference to her origin game not only because it's her origin but also because —besides spin-off games— it's the only appearance that she ever made. Though I also think that she should reference spin-off games because she's been used exclusively as a spin-off character since her second appearance and every game that she's playable in is a spin-off game.

I also think her vB should have her pull something from her origin game or a spin-off game. That would be pretty neat.

 

[Azcorban]

For grabbing she could easily just use Peach's original grabs or something like that.

As her B I think it would be cool to either have a reference to her origin game (which is sorely lacking right now) or a Mario Party reference. Even if it's still a counter but just looks like something that Daisy would actually do it would be pretty cool.

I think that Daisy should have a reference to her origin game not only because it's her origin but also because —besides spin-off games— it's the only appearance that she ever made. Though I also think that she should reference spin-off games because she's been used exclusively as a spin-off character since her second appearance and every game that she's playable in is a spin-off game.

I also think her vB should have her pull something from her origin game or a spin-off game. That would be pretty neat.

As for her throws, I agree.

For her B she could simply hold a Bob-Omb in front of her (as these are frequently used in the partygames). If it gets hit, it explodes & deals damage.

Her Down B could pull dice (also from Mario Party). Instead of the turnip's face it shows a number which displays its damage.

 

[Xelrog]

Neither Daisy nor Waluigi should reference spin-off games in their moveset. If that's all they've got then that's not enough for a character, full stop. Mario and Luigi were in every single spinoff game that Daisy was in and neither of them employ references to them. Doing so for Daisy is settling, and is no better than making her a clone because "duhhh I don't know there was nothing else to work with."

Better no original moveset with hope for the future than a terrible original moveset.

 

[1FC0]

duhhh I don't know there was nothing else to work with."

I would not blame you for that, she's got only 1 main series game.

However the point is not that there's nothing else to work with, the point is more that it's fine to work with the Spin-Off games. They're cool, I'd like to have a character based around that. Mario has a pretty big role in the Mainline series and Wario already has his own spin-off series which he represents. However, Daisy's mainline series consists of 1 whole game, while her Mario spin-off appearances consists of at least 72 games. In addition, every game that she's playable in is a spin-off. At this point Daisy is practically a spin-off character.

Basically you are suggesting that for Daisy they should ignore everything about the character and just make something up. I guess you love what they did for Ganondorf in Melee.

 

[Xelrog]

I would not blame you for that, she's got only 1 main series game.

However the point is not that there's nothing else to work with, the point is more that it's fine to work with the Spin-Off games. They're cool, I'd like to have a character based around that. Mario has a pretty big role in the Mainline series and Wario already has his own spin-off series which he represents. However, Daisy's mainline series consists of 1 whole game, while her Mario spin-off appearances consists of at least 72 games. In addition, every game that she's playable in is a spin-off. At this point Daisy is practically a spin-off character.

Basically you are suggesting that for Daisy they should ignore everything about the character and just make something up. I guess you love what they did for Ganondorf in Melee.

EVERY Mario character's spin-off repertoire is at least 72 games. That's not unique to Daisy, is the problem.

Yes, I would rather they made something up. Yes, I would rather they GIVE a character lore who is in need of it. Captain Falcon turned out ****ing amazing, they made a goddang F-Zero anime that had the falcon punch in it. Use a character's presence in Smash to fill in the spaces and give them the personality that the mainline series refuses to. I want to see another Falcon, another Fox McCloud, another Ness, another Smash success story.

Same with Waluigi. Don't cobble together some crap with sports equipment. He's a sneaky dirty cheater, so make him fight like one. The most important thing above all else is that the character's presence in Smash feels like they would feel in a fighting game. They didn't just offload Mario with a storm of powerups like the Tanooki statue and the raccoon tail and koopa surfing and hope it all worked--they made him feel like Mario would feel like as a fighting game character, with a couple of references there for good measure. Game references are cool but they're not the bottom line, especially when it comes to characters with nothing unique to them and only them to work with.

 

[1FC0]

EVERY Mario character's spin-off repertoire is at least 72 games. That's not unique to Daisy, is the problem.

That does not matter to me. It's about how big it relatively is. For Daisy more than 98% of her games are spin-off. That is pretty unique.

Besides, I like Diddy having his banana's even those his love for banana's is definitely not unique to him and the move would have made more sense on Donkey Kong. I do not really care if they give some characters things that would fit on other characters also. I do not care that Bowser Jr. rides Bowser's Clown Car. But this is just an opinion. You could be bothered by those things but I'm not.

Same with Waluigi. Don't cobble together some crap with sports equipment. He's a sneaky dirty cheater, so make him fight like one. The most important thing above all else is that the character's presence in Smash feels like they would feel in a fighting game. They didn't just offload Mario with a storm of powerups like the Tanooki statue and the raccoon tail and koopa surfing and hope it all worked--they made him feel like Mario would feel like as a fighting game character, with a couple of references there for good measure.

That's a bit of a strawman. I was suggesting changing 2 moves and for that pulling from Mario Party and Mario Land. That would mean one move would reference a spin-off game and one would reference her own mainline game. That's actually very comparable to Wario and Captain Falcon. In fact, what you are saying here agrees with my suggestion.

Game references are cool but they're not the bottom line, especially when it comes to characters with nothing unique to them and only them to work with.

So how does making Daisy a Peach clone make her more unique? Game references are ot the end all, but they're certainly not bad in itself. Is Wario bad for his bike? Is Mario bad for his many references? Do you dislike Captain Falcon now that his Final Smash references his game? Again, I was talking about one single reference to Mario Party and a single reference to Mario Land (though I do not think having many references is bad either, Mario and Luigi do fine with it. I did not suggest many references but that's not because I'm against them). And of course removing the Toads since Daisy does not even have Toads. They're just there because Peach uses them. How is Daisy using Toads just because she's an echo of Peach in any way Daisy-like?

 

[Xelrog]

Chill. All I said is that Daisy and Waluigi shouldn't have entire movesets cobbled together from sports games. If this isn't your opinion, then there's no reason you should feel attacked.

 

[1FC0]

Do not worry, I was not at all angry or offended.

 

[Azcorban]

My question is if you should make up an entire new moveset for a character like Daisy when the time could be spent on a very unique character.

Personally I think Daisy is not important enough to be included as her unique own character, but I'm still dissapointed that she has NO difference to Peach.

But if she ever gets an unique moveset, then I agree she shouldn't get a moveset with only random sport stuff. She is no sports character after all and thus it would be a bad representation.

 

[Geno Boost]

Daisy and Dark Samus shouldn’t be echoes there is so much you could bring from their game appearance for their move set
Also Dark Pit needs his staff

 

[1FC0]

She is no sports character after all and thus it would be a bad representation.

What do you call a character that appears almost exclusively in sport games? She is being used as a sports character and nothing more.

Also I forgot this earlier, but the ship of

Neither Daisy nor Waluigi should reference spin-off games in their moveset.

has already sailed since her FSmash uses a tennis racket and a golf club.

 

[Xelrog]

What do you call a character that appears almost exclusively in sport games?

A non-character.

 

[1FC0]

I do not know what that means. Take for example Waluigi, who originates in Mario Tennis and is exclusive to Mario sport games. What about him makes him lacking? He seems to be very popular, so apparently being a non-character is not a big deal.

 

[Xelrog]

He's not popular for being a sports star. People's desire for Waluigi to be in the game does not stem from a desire to play a sports character.

And no, he's not exclusive to sports games. He's exclusive to spin-off games, much to his fanbase's chagrin. The people who like these characters don't WANT them to be spin-off characters, they want to see them break out of that unwanted role. Having an all-spinoff moveset in Smash would only secure it further.

 

[1FC0]

Why do you keep bringing up whole movesets being based around sports games in replies to me? I never suggested anything of the sort. I was arguing against your original standpoint, not the one that you subtly switched to mid-discussion.

More specifically, you went from

Neither Daisy nor Waluigi should reference spin-off games in their moveset.

to

All I said is that Daisy and Waluigi shouldn't have entire movesets cobbled together from sports games.

I suggested giving Daisy a single move from Mario Party. That contradicts your original standpoint, but not your new one.

 

[Xelrog]

One is not as bad but I would still prefer zero for the reasons I've outlined.

 

[Darktheumbreon]

Isn't there a thread very similar to this one up already?

 

[Azcorban]

Isn't there a thread very similar to this one up already?

is there? I didn't find any tbh, but maybe I just didn't search the right terms...