• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Debunking the Sheik's dthrow to 50/50 setup: STOP AIRDODGING

ArikadoSD

the cream of the crop
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
1,466
Location
Dublin
NNID
ArikadoSD
3DS FC
0748-2790-0166
TOO MANY people think Sheik's dthrow leads into a 50/50 kill setup between up air and vanish. If you don't air dodge, you get hit by up air, if you air dodge, you get hit by vanish.

That is simply not true. For sure, dthrow does combo into up air, but at percents where it will never kill. This means any percent between 0-100% depending on rage. The percents where uair DOES kill, it doesn't combo off dthrow if you DI it correctly and jump away from Sheik. Always DI away from Sheik no matter what and she will never get anything off her throws at higher percents. Maybe near the ledge if you DI away and keep DIing away she can do dthrow > fair and kill you if she has a lot of rage and you're at a percent where it combos but that would be your fault for not reacting in time.

Emphasize on DI away and jump away; if you jump towards Sheik then you might be clipped by uair. If you jump away there's no chance.

Now for the argument people love to use the most for the 50/50: you can airdodge earlier than you can jump out of hitstun. That might be true but it's entirely irrelevant in this case. You have enough time to double jump away.

The bottom line here is that you should never airdodge from throws at percents where you might be able to get killed by vanish and not get killed by uair; everyone should know these percents just by playing the game, they're not exactly tight. Uair does around 8% anyway so take the hit instead of losing a potential stock to vanish because you airdodge. Do not airdodge down throw at high percents. There is literally no advantage to that.
 

Simikins

Nerfed
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Messages
366
Location
New Zealand
3DS FC
0447-8060-8710
Hopefully commentators will stop talking about "Sheik's great 50/50 out of down throw" because I cringe every time I hear it.
 

Illuminose

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 6, 2015
Messages
671
no, it's definitely a legitimate 50/50 at certain percent ranges where you DON'T have enough time to jump. while it's true that people air dodge at percents where up air won't kill, you can't just solve the situation with di away and jump at all percents. there isn't enough time to jump, the up air is guaranteed if you don't air dodge so it is a 50/50.

the only time this doesn't work is if you have awkward stage positioning to follow the di, in which you can just go for the forward air.

this post definitely is not correct.
 
Last edited:

ArikadoSD

the cream of the crop
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
1,466
Location
Dublin
NNID
ArikadoSD
3DS FC
0748-2790-0166
no, it's definitely a legitimate 50/50 at certain percent ranges where you DON'T have enough time to jump. while it's true that people air dodge at percents where up air won't kill, you can't just solve the situation with di away and jump at all percents. there isn't enough time to jump, the up air is guaranteed if you don't air dodge so it is a 50/50.

the only time this doesn't work is if you have awkward stage positioning to follow the di, in which you can just go for the forward air.

this post definitely is not correct.
What's this magic tight percent where uair combos and kills that everyone keeps talking about? how much does rage/staleness affect it? is it for all characters?

I keep hearing that but no one ever really specified the actual percentages.

At low or mid percents its almost irrelevant because it combos anyway, but at higher percents airdodge isn't the most viable option anymore.
 

leesinger

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 2, 2015
Messages
139
Location
Salt Lake City
NNID
yolo-swag420T.T
From what I've noticed playing sheik the 50/50 is a real thing, but only applies to heavier charachters and some fast fallers. If you know they are going to jump you can just buffer double jump to up air and its guaranteed to hit on those characters. All in all I'd much rather have sheiks 50/50 in the game then say, Rob's 50/50 which can kill characters at like 70%. That ****s broken
 
Last edited:

Ludus_Machinae

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 11, 2015
Messages
39
Location
Dickinson ND
NNID
epicbro369
3DS FC
4038-6245-6823
What's this magic tight percent where uair combos and kills that everyone keeps talking about? how much does rage/staleness affect it? is it for all characters?

I keep hearing that but no one ever really specified the actual percentages.

At low or mid percents its almost irrelevant because it combos anyway, but at higher percents airdodge isn't the most viable option anymore.
what i dont understand is how people think that its the fact it combos that makes it a 50/50 the thing that make it a 50/50 is that you CAN airdoge out of it. its a 50/50 because the sheik should be reading the jump away if he thinks they're not gonna airdoge. not many people think that a jumping airdoge is a very good option to escape that situation so all they need to do is read the jump and immeadeately double jump upair, not just an upair. let me say this once more: the 50/50 is NOT "will he airdoge or not" it IS "will he jump away or airdoge"
 

Illuminose

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 6, 2015
Messages
671
What's this magic tight percent where uair combos and kills that everyone keeps talking about? how much does rage/staleness affect it? is it for all characters?

I keep hearing that but no one ever really specified the actual percentages.

At low or mid percents its almost irrelevant because it combos anyway, but at higher percents airdodge isn't the most viable option anymore.
it depends a lot on rage and character, but generally the 110-140 range is about what you're looking at in which up air kills and it's a true 50/50. it's hard to generalize though and sometimes it can work up to 150ish, with rage up air can kill at 100 so it starts earlier but ends earlier as well. ultra light characters have issues with the 50/50 in the 90-105ish range from my (limited) experiences in those matchups (Kirby, puff).
 

HoSmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
688
What's this magic tight percent where uair combos and kills that everyone keeps talking about? how much does rage/staleness affect it? is it for all characters?

I keep hearing that but no one ever really specified the actual percentages.

At low or mid percents its almost irrelevant because it combos anyway, but at higher percents airdodge isn't the most viable option anymore.
The reason why no one posts the specific percentages is because it takes a lot of labbing and if they info dump it all they are doing is going their opponent better knowledge of the sheik matchup. Whats the point of that except to prove a point thats normally wideknown? Plus di-traps can mess up optimal di'ing so outside a vacuum and looking at the picture in the middle of a game its much easier and simpler to classify it as a 50/50.
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
4,665
Location
Australia
You can air-dodge out of hitstun before you can jump. You can't jump out of d-throw > uair until ridiculous %s (think 150+), though it's lower with rage (assuming the Sheik actually does it fast enough, which isn't hard). DI away doesn't change this. However, you can air-dodge the uair, that's why it's a 50/50 between air-dodging or not, you have no other options.
OP doesn't know what they're talking about.
 
Last edited:

Absol

Sucker Punch
Joined
Nov 28, 2013
Messages
472
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio
NNID
xenxio
I'm sorry but this simply isn't true. At kill percents dthrow> Dash> first jump (first jumps carry over momentum from movement speed) >Second jump (momentum does not carry over) >uair is in fact a 50-50. However it isn't the vanish that makes it a 50-50, its either waiting for the airdodge and using uair, or just flat out using uair, calling their jump. Vanish doesn't work on this because you can just squeeze in a second airdodge even if sheik does read it. While I do agree a player should rarely airdodge against sheik, I do know for a fact that this 50-50 is legitimate.

Me and Tree are working on a video and it includes this exact thing. Hopefully we can shed some light on this topic.
 

ShinRamen

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
74
Location
UK, London
NNID
KoRShin
In my experience the d throw leads to a "50/50" in the sheik ditto up till 165%-ish, with no rage. You have to DJ up air at different timings depending on the percent. I think I'll test the definitive percents for the 50/50 being a kill setup in the sheik ditto, no rage + DI away later this week (Unless that's part of Absol and Tree's video).

Arikado, exactly how are you doing d throw up air, in terms of controls? I agree that "50/50" isn't a perfect description, and a lot of players do make objectively wrong decisions when being d thrown at different percents, but the kill set up certainly exists.
 

exnecross

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 2, 2015
Messages
214
Yeah.. I was wondering why some people were under the impression that it was a 50/50. Even at surprisingly low percents, if the opponent DI's hard away, they can't be caught with uair or vanish. Even if you get a running start off the ground, you're too slow. If you jump immediately while keeping the analog all the way to the side and uair with c-stick, they will be too far. Vanish trap only works at particular percents, and only kills at even more particular percents. Uair is a bit more lenient, but doesn't kill until much later, and usually by that time you're able to just escape it by DI'ing away.

More like a 20/80 against someone who knows what they are doing. That's why a lot of top Sheiks just go for a fair off throw at higher percents.
 

John12346

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 24, 2009
Messages
3,534
Location
New York, NY
NNID
JohnNumbers
I will mention that I DI'd away from and mashed jump vs Vinnie's Sheik's Dthrow at around 150 while he himself was at around 140 and I STILL got Uaired before I was able to escape, so... Yeah
 
Last edited:

Absol

Sucker Punch
Joined
Nov 28, 2013
Messages
472
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio
NNID
xenxio
let me say this once more: the 50/50 is NOT "will he airdoge or not" it IS "will he jump away or airdoge"
Pretty much answers the entire thread. Dthrow>wait>Uair for airdodging or just flat out dthrow>uair for calling the jump.

You really shouldn't be using vanish out of dthrow....like at all.
 

Mr-R

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
2,544
Uhm someone linked me this and I just came here to say you guys are all wrong LOL. It's a 50/50 at CERTAIN percents ( usually 100-150, depending on rage and character weight )

If you try to jump and and I upair, then it will hit you before you jump away, REGARDLESS of DI. If you're not hitting the uair then you're not doing it properly.

If you still don't believe me, Ask any other top level sheik mains lmao
 

ArikadoSD

the cream of the crop
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
1,466
Location
Dublin
NNID
ArikadoSD
3DS FC
0748-2790-0166
Arikado, exactly how are you doing d throw up air, in terms of controls? I agree that "50/50" isn't a perfect description, and a lot of players do make objectively wrong decisions when being d thrown at different percents, but the kill set up certainly exists.
dthrow > dash > jump uair, sometimes i'll just straight up buffer jump from dthrow > dj uair

I'm seeing a lot of replies trying to prove me wrong. I'd like to get an answer on this once and for all, if i had a willing testing partner i'd do it on my own but I can't. I personally never hit this combo at kill percents and rarely get hit by hit when I face other sheiks. others are claiming its definitely a 50/50 and dthrow > uair is true at kill percent. which is it? either I'm doing something horribly wrong or everyone who gets hit by it is.
 

ShinRamen

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
74
Location
UK, London
NNID
KoRShin
that's what half of us are saying ramin dammit

Arikado, I meant like what buttons are your fingers pressing?
 

Mr-R

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
2,544
dthrow > dash > jump uair, sometimes i'll just straight up buffer jump from dthrow > dj uair

I'm seeing a lot of replies trying to prove me wrong. I'd like to get an answer on this once and for all, if i had a willing testing partner i'd do it on my own but I can't. I personally never hit this combo at kill percents and rarely get hit by hit when I face other sheiks. others are claiming its definitely a 50/50 and dthrow > uair is true at kill percent. which is it? either I'm doing something horribly wrong or everyone who gets hit by it is.
Double post cause I'm never on smashboards anyway so who cares.

Ari, you have to run up slightly and upair at the PEAK of your jump. What's more important then that is knowing the specific percents it works at! You might not be doing it at the right percents. check out my sets vs vinnie on youtube, we use that 50/50 setup a lot
 
Last edited:

Absol

Sucker Punch
Joined
Nov 28, 2013
Messages
472
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio
NNID
xenxio
Lol WHAT? Frame trapping with vanish is one of Sheik's best kill options.
No because you can fit a second airdodge in

You have 2 frames from the explosion of vanish to hit a 6 frame opening and that's if you sync the start up with their timing, as well as taking into account DI.

It's a horrible way to kill. They can spam airdodge and it won't hit them unless your timing is robotic.

Moreover you're better off hitting someone out of airdodge with a quicker move like uair to snag the end frames of airdodge.
 
Last edited:

Illuminose

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 6, 2015
Messages
671
No because you can fit a second airdodge in

You have 2 frames from the explosion of vanish to hit a 6 frame opening and that's if you sync the start up with their timing, as well as taking into account DI.

It's a horrible way to kill. They can spam airdodge and it won't hit them unless your timing is robotic.

Moreover you're better off hitting someone out of airdodge with a quicker move like uair to snag the end frames of airdodge.
this simply isn't true either. the thing with vanish is that it kills earlier, also sometimes it's easier to connect than the up air due to how certain characters drift away especially at lower percents in the 50/50 (though you can also try up smashing that but it's not as reliable). if they buffer an air dodge out of hitstun vanish is guaranteed unless you aren't following their di properly.
 

Absol

Sucker Punch
Joined
Nov 28, 2013
Messages
472
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio
NNID
xenxio
this simply isn't true either. the thing with vanish is that it kills earlier, also sometimes it's easier to connect than the up air due to how certain characters drift away especially at lower percents in the 50/50 (though you can also try up smashing that but it's not as reliable). if they buffer an air dodge out of hitstun vanish is guaranteed unless you aren't following their di properly.
Vanish is not guarantee unless you have synchronized timing with their airdodge. a simple frame data check will prove this. calling an air dodge and flat out doing a frame perfect vanish chase at the right time are two totally different things. you will never convince me that vanish is easier to hit than a simple up air at kill percents
 
Last edited:

Ghostbone

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
4,665
Location
Australia
Vanish is not guarantee unless you have synchronized timing with their airdodge. a simple frame data check will prove this. calling an air dodge and flat out doing a frame perfect vanish chase at the right time are two totally different things. you will never convince me that vanish is easier to hit than a simple up air at kill percents
You just up-b to sync up with the timing of an air-dodge that will get dodge your fastest uair.
If they start doing late air-dodges than you just uair them, otherwise up-b catches them out of their air-dodge every time.
It's not that hard to time with practice.
 

Absol

Sucker Punch
Joined
Nov 28, 2013
Messages
472
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio
NNID
xenxio
You just up-b to sync up with the timing of an air-dodge that will get dodge your fastest uair.
If they start doing late air-dodges than you just uair them, otherwise up-b catches them out of their air-dodge every time.
It's not that hard to time with practice.
It's not late airdodge I'm talking about its quite literally the opponent realizing they airdodged into vanish, and proceed to airdodge a second time regardless. A lot of players don't even bother considering this. They just put their controller on the floor after one air dodge thinking its over when its far from it. If they airdodged what would have been your fastest uair then this just proves the point further since it gives them more frames to buffer the second one. By no means it is impossible, but compared to just waiting and using uair instead makes vanish look embarrassing. Vanish hits on frame 36-38, and Sheiks airdodge as an example is intangible from 2-25, and can do another one on frame 31. Meaning you need to use vanish earlier accroding to their airdodge by about 6 frames. Which means if they do airdodge by expecting sheiks up air while we're doing vanish then they have time to airdodge again before getting hit. When instead we could've used a move that comes out frame 4 with a rehit rate after they airdodged. Character dependent when it comes to airdodge data, but still.
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
4,665
Location
Australia
Yes, you actually start vanish before they start air-dodge. You can do that because they're still in hitstun.

Vanish is important to catch air-dodges because there are % ranges where uair doesn't kill but your opponent will still air-dodge (though they should probably just resign themselves to taking uair damage in that situation), or a fast uair will kill but a uair catching an air-dodge won't because you're not as close to the blastzone at that point.
Vanish also has a more horizontal hitbox which can be important depending on the situation. Plus vanish is likely not stale so that can add to the whole killing earlier thing.
Not using vanish is just limiting your options. Sure you should almost always just wait and uair when that will kill but that's quite a lot later than vanish.
 
Last edited:

MoosyDoosy

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Messages
704
Location
United States
It's only 50/50 at certain percents and with good DI it only kills after a certain point. So the time when the 50/50 applies is actually really small and negligent.
 

exnecross

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 2, 2015
Messages
214
No because you can fit a second airdodge in

You have 2 frames from the explosion of vanish to hit a 6 frame opening and that's if you sync the start up with their timing, as well as taking into account DI.

It's a horrible way to kill. They can spam airdodge and it won't hit them unless your timing is robotic.

Moreover you're better off hitting someone out of airdodge with a quicker move like uair to snag the end frames of airdodge.

I guess my timing is robotic then. But seriously, 2 frames isn't a big deal though, that's 1 less frame than a power shield. It kills ~40% earlier than uair, and I find it easier to hit than baiting out an airdodge and following their DI for a uair. Sometimes I'll even do it at 60% because why not. It's a great mixup and one of her earliest kill options.
 

Ludus_Machinae

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 11, 2015
Messages
39
Location
Dickinson ND
NNID
epicbro369
3DS FC
4038-6245-6823
Pretty much answers the entire thread. Dthrow>wait>Uair for airdodging or just flat out dthrow>uair for calling the jump.

You really shouldn't be using vanish out of dthrow....like at all.
kills earlier if you get the read is all.
 

Spark31

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
283
Location
Dallas, Texas
NNID
Spark311
3DS FC
4940-5914-5196
I only really use down throw to vanish because it kills earlier. I've killed people with it at 90%, which is much earlier than up air will ever kill off of down throw. It's a good mix up especially because even though people CAN squeeze in another air dodge after vanish, they don't.
 

ArikadoSD

the cream of the crop
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
1,466
Location
Dublin
NNID
ArikadoSD
3DS FC
0748-2790-0166
I actually started looking into this more. Instead of doing dthrow > jumping with y > attacking with control stick and A, I started doing dthrow > jumping with L, and using c-stick up for uair... and people are telling me they can't jump away from it (when they could, at least most of the time, previously)

This is really ****ing weird LOL
 

Illuminose

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 6, 2015
Messages
671
I actually started looking into this more. Instead of doing dthrow > jumping with y > attacking with control stick and A, I started doing dthrow > jumping with L, and using c-stick up for uair... and people are telling me they can't jump away from it (when they could, at least most of the time, previously)

This is really ****ing weird LOL
you're prolly being faster with l jump + c stick uair
 

Ludus_Machinae

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 11, 2015
Messages
39
Location
Dickinson ND
NNID
epicbro369
3DS FC
4038-6245-6823
I actually started looking into this more. Instead of doing dthrow > jumping with y > attacking with control stick and A, I started doing dthrow > jumping with L, and using c-stick up for uair... and people are telling me they can't jump away from it (when they could, at least most of the time, previously)

This is really ****ing weird LOL
at what % (approx) is it harder to avoid? this would be useful information cuz i still use tap to jump and i can possibly do something similar
 

ArikadoSD

the cream of the crop
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
1,466
Location
Dublin
NNID
ArikadoSD
3DS FC
0748-2790-0166
at what % (approx) is it harder to avoid? this would be useful information cuz i still use tap to jump and i can possibly do something similar
Not sure but the percent where it works isn't small. As long as they're not at 130% while u have max rage at the same time it should work.
 

iceman9746

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
29
Location
Pleasantville, New York
TOO MANY people think Sheik's dthrow leads into a 50/50 kill setup between up air and vanish. If you don't air dodge, you get hit by up air, if you air dodge, you get hit by vanish.

That is simply not true. For sure, dthrow does combo into up air, but at percents where it will never kill. This means any percent between 0-100% depending on rage. The percents where uair DOES kill, it doesn't combo off dthrow if you DI it correctly and jump away from Sheik. Always DI away from Sheik no matter what and she will never get anything off her throws at higher percents. Maybe near the ledge if you DI away and keep DIing away she can do dthrow > fair and kill you if she has a lot of rage and you're at a percent where it combos but that would be your fault for not reacting in time.

Emphasize on DI away and jump away; if you jump towards Sheik then you might be clipped by uair. If you jump away there's no chance.

Now for the argument people love to use the most for the 50/50: you can airdodge earlier than you can jump out of hitstun. That might be true but it's entirely irrelevant in this case. You have enough time to double jump away.

The bottom line here is that you should never airdodge from throws at percents where you might be able to get killed by vanish and not get killed by uair; everyone should know these percents just by playing the game, they're not exactly tight. Uair does around 8% anyway so take the hit instead of losing a potential stock to vanish because you airdodge. Do not airdodge down throw at high percents. There is literally no advantage to that.
Not trying to be mean arikadox but this thread you made has made me truly question you as a viable source of information. Like john numbers said no di can escape the upair until sheik's dj up air can't reach after d throw, maybe a little bit earlier than that. Plz show proof or the thread is meaningless, you know that.
 
Last edited:

_Tree

The no-more hero
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
333
Location
Australia
NNID
DekuBaba
3DS FC
1891-1276-1936
Not trying to be mean arikadox but this thread you made has made me truly question you as a viable source of information. Like john numbers said no di can escape the upair until sheik's dj up air can't reach after d throw, maybe a little bit earlier than that. Plz show proof or the thread is meaningless, you know that.
I don't think discounting Ari completely for one technical misunderstanding is very reasonable, especially considering the myriad of other quality contributions he's made on these boards. He's also one of the only members here that gets results in tournament.
Could this thread have been improved in its execution? Perhaps, yea. But mistakes happen. Don't count it as a huge blemish on his reliability.
 

Simikins

Nerfed
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Messages
366
Location
New Zealand
3DS FC
0447-8060-8710
This has stirred up a lot hasn't it. I feel like we should properly test all this, and update the thread with all the info. People don't seem to be happy unless every percent and option is accounted for, so to 'improve' the meta we may as well make it so that **** stirrers have no ammo, and are forced to accept and understand.
Info on when the supposed 50/50 actually works would be quite helpful for everyone.
 

iceman9746

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
29
Location
Pleasantville, New York
This has stirred up a lot hasn't it. I feel like we should properly test all this, and update the thread with all the info. People don't seem to be happy unless every percent and option is accounted for, so to 'improve' the meta we may as well make it so that **** stirrers have no ammo, and are forced to accept and understand.
Info on when the supposed 50/50 actually works would be quite helpful for everyone.
I wasn't trying to start anything, i just don't want other people getting the wrong information.
 

Simikins

Nerfed
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Messages
366
Location
New Zealand
3DS FC
0447-8060-8710
iceman9746 iceman9746
That wasn't necessarily directed at you, just against people who state things without having done research, which is almost every person who replied to this thread.
We may as well do all the research for them.
 
Top Bottom