Dear Sonic board,

[Steeler]

I come to you humbled and broken. Shamed...yet encouraged. As if invigorated by a Rare Candy of some sort.

As many of you know, a new tier list was recently revealed today. Now, let us be honest...we all knew that both Sonic and Pokemon Trainer would stay in "low" tier, narrowly escaping the clutches of "bottom" tier, otherwise known as the "Lord Meta Knight, have mercy on our souls for we do not deserve to coexist in your game" tier.

Pokemon Trainer and Sonic have quite a bit in common...a lack of advantageous matchups but an abundance of neutral and slightly disadvantageous matchups. A high learning curve. Dedicated followings. And now, these two characters have been placed next to each other in the official SBR-B tier list!

F Tier
Mario 4.56
Lucas 4.50
Ness 4.50
Samus 4.41
Sonic 4.16
Pokémon Trainer 3.94
Yoshi 3.66

Ah, yes, it is as if these characters are created to complement each other, hand in hand, so to speak. But wait...what is this? Let us take a closer look at the characters that are positioned on higher ground in F Tier. I leave it up to you Sonics to create an affectionate nickname for our home for at least the next 6 months, and likely for the rest of eternity.

Mario. You know, Mario seems like a solid, if eternally underrated character in Smash Bros. But top of F Tier is a very enviable position...it means you are almost better than the worst characters in the game. Almost.

The Mother boys. They polled the same exact score. I believe the SBR-B was confused as to which name went with which character, so they played it safe. Fair enough, they both have big black eyes, big round heads, abnormally big feet, and some kind of weird witchcraft attacks. Actually, just pretend that there are only 6 spots in F Tier, and Lucas/Ness are just one character.

Samus. She can make herself practically naked.

Yoshi can go ffffffff itself, that character's mains are almost as annoying as...

...well nevermind.

Anyway, how do Sonic and PT stack up against their fellow FFFFFFFFFF tier companions? Well, when we get down as low as FU tier, no one knows what the **** they are talking about unless they main a character there. And those mains have no idea what the **** they are talking about when they look at the other eFFers. So we look toward the most unbiased (yet still flawed) tool we have.

Tourney results.

Champions of Justice in a Golden, Super Saiyan-like Aura (the font color text tells me it's "orange" but just play along)
Failure in Not Gold

Fall 2008
S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, King Dedede
B: (Falco, Marth), (Mr. Game & Watch, Wario), Lucario, (Diddy Kong, Olimar), ROB
C: Kirby, (Wolf, Peach), Pikachu, (Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong), Sonic, Zero Suit Samus
D: (Bowser, Zelda/Sheik, Toon Link, Ike, Luigi, Pit), Fox
E: (Ness, Yoshi, Mario), Pokémon Trainer, (Link, Captain Falcon), (Lucas, Samus), Jigglypuff, Ganondorf

August/September 2008
*: Meta Knight
S: Snake
A: (Wario, King Dedede), (Falco, Mr. Game & Watch)
B: Marth, (Lucario, ROB, Diddy Kong), (Kirby, Pikachu, Olimar, Peach)
C: Wolf, (Pit, Donkey Kong), Ice Climbers
D: Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, (Pokémon Trainer, Sonic, Luigi, Zelda/Sheik), Fox, Mario
E: (Bowser, Sheik, Yoshi, Zelda, Link, Ike, Ness), Samus, (Jigglypuff, Lucas), (Ganondorf, Captain Falcon)

July/August 2008
S: Meta Knight, Snake
A: Wario, (King Dedede, Falco, Mr. Game & Watch), Marth
B: (Lucario, ROB, Diddy Kong), (Donkey Kong, Kirby)
C: (Peach, Pikachu), (Olimar, Wolf), (Ice Climbers, Pit), Zero Suit Samus
D: Fox, Ike, (Sonic, Lucas, Pokémon Trainer, ZeldaSheik)
E: (Toon Link, Jigglypuff, Mario, Zelda), (Luigi, Sheik, Link, Ness, Bowser, Yoshi, Samus), (Ganondorf, Captain Falcon)

Numbers do not lie, my brothers, regardless of however million Sonics are entering tournaments.

And so, I extend an offer. An offer to form an alliance. We will show all that we are not to be trifled with.

Obviously I call position of "SUPREME COMMANDANTE OF ZE SONIC/TRAINER ALLIANCE AIMING TO DESTROY ALL FFFFFFFF TIER COMPETITION" (name subject to change) cuz it was my idea () but I will need a right hand man to help me guide this new allegiance of justice.

If you choose to accept, of course. Deliberate and take all the time needed. Our dominance can wait.

Also I haven't slept in 24 hours so hey I might not even remember this even happened in a few hours. Just a heads up steak heads. [/pre johns]

 

[NeoCrono]

ouch
I really thought sonic would move up........ I was wrong though

 

[Chis]

Win, a PT-Sonic alliance?

I'm in.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Hedgepoke?

Pokehog?

Pokahogtas?(Creator of epic sonic in a Native American dress and a PT cap with slightly Ash hair shaped-ish spikes logo recieves somewhere between 2 and 3 billion internets, I might do this one myself if I have time. Lots of time...)

 

[ROOOOY!]

LOL OFF CORS U GAIZ R LOW TIER FATIGE PWNS U LOLOLOLOL.

Welcome to the club, being underrated for no legitimate reason.

<3

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

well, I'm more inclined to align with PT than CF =/

Plus, Ivysaur is sexy

 

[JesseMeza]

Hedgepoke?

Pokehog?

Pokahogtas?

Wait! I've got it!

The Sonicmon Trainers!

 

[Tenki]

This'd be amazing.

Now we're alliance'd with pretty much all my prospective secondaries.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I am rather surprised considering sonic's results improve oh well **** happens.

I do think the pokemon trainers have to deal with the major issue of the three pokemon getting tired and forcefully switched which I can see hurting them at high levels of play. I guess it will be some time before we see that potential unleashed.

As for an alliance, don't we get along already?

 

[Tenki]

Okay I got it. The name will be Haunter Trainers.

I am rather surprised considering sonic's results improve oh well **** happens.

I do think the pokemon trainers have to deal with the major issue of the three pokemon getting tired and forcefully switched which I can see hurting them at high levels of play. I guess it will be some time before we see that potential unleashed.

As for an alliance, don't we get along already?

guess it will be some time before we see that potential unleashed.

As for an alliance, don't we get along already?

guess it will be some time before we see that potential unleashed.

unleashed.

Pokemon Unleashed?
------------------------

On a serious note, the fatigue thing only seems to matter for kill moves. The pokemon themselves seem to be able to deal with it rather well, considering they have some really crazy damage rackers/gimpers, and priority.

Squirtle's priority gives alot of characters issues, and he has a few notable GTFO switchtime! moves, so he can rack up damage, use his 'kill move' as normal, and then hope for Ivy for the kill. Ivysaur has U-throw, B-throw, up-B, dash attack and a host of high-knockback moves that he can use for switching. If stuck in fatigue, Ivy still has bullet seed out of shield, or B-air/F-tilt and such to space and take the opponent up to a higher damage. Charizard can fight fatigued or not, and flame thrower's a sick edgeguard, and he racks up damage fast with counter-rock smash and grab/edgegame. He has a bit of KO moves as well, and IMO is the least 'gimped' of the 3 when it comes down to being stuck in fatigue, since he can kill with simple moves like F-smash or gimp with F-air.

Besides Squirtle, which is the character I suck the most with of the 3, I don't think the playstyle really changes much when they're in fatigue.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

On a serious note, the fatigue thing only seems to matter for kill moves. The pokemon themselves seem to be able to deal with it rather well, considering they have some really crazy damage rackers/gimpers, and priority.

Squirtle's priority gives alot of characters issues, and he has a few notable GTFO switchtime! moves, so he can rack up damage, use his 'kill move' as normal, and then hope for Ivy for the kill. Ivysaur has U-throw, B-throw, up-B, dash attack and a host of high-knockback moves that he can use for switching. If stuck in fatigue, Ivy still has bullet seed out of shield, or B-air/F-tilt and such to space and take the opponent up to a higher damage. Charizard can fight fatigued or not, and flame thrower's a sick edgeguard, and he racks up damage fast with counter-rock smash and grab/edgegame. He has a bit of KO moves as well, and IMO is the least 'gimped' of the 3 when it comes down to being stuck in fatigue, since he can kill with simple moves like F-smash or gimp with F-air.

Besides Squirtle, which is the character I suck the most with of the 3, I don't think the playstyle really changes much when they're in fatigue.

Unfortunately it'll take NOTHING less then some epic inescapable god combo heavily reliant on the fatigue system to convince anyone otherwise. -.-

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

I can't believe Sonic didn't really move at all :/

So for names we have:

Pok'emon Unleashed

Pok'ehogs

Pok'ehog Trainers

Haunter Unleashed

and Hedg'emon.

 

[Tenki]

That's weird though, considering that instead of using a kill move, killing your opponent, and switching pokemon while they respawn, you use a kill move and switch while your opponent recovers.

...

What's the difference? lol. I can imagine that if you're competent with all 3, then it's just a matter of using a different moveset, unless you're switching from like, Charizard to Squirtle... vs Snake.

:[

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well fatigue really only affects squirtle's killing power Ivysaur and Charizaaard do fine.
The fatigue issue also forces a switch hence why I think Sonic has an advantage on PT simply cause he can play gay and just, run the clock so to speak.

i think its because of the fact that you aren't really given a choice on whom you are using that really affects PT as well as the fact you are dealing with 3 characters at once rather than just one or two(in zelda's case) and none of them really flow with each other as well as Zelda and Sheik do.
Thats from what i have seen though I have no qualm's at all being wrong.

 

[Steeler]

charizard compliments both ivysaur and squirtle really well.

squirtle and ivysaur don't get along



squirtle is taunting ivy, and ivy is getting pretty **** annoyed

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I'm surprised no one has posted this yet

http://pokecool.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/shaymin.png?w=332&h=288

I've posted that Pokémon in a web link rather than as an image so I don't spoil it for anyone cause I don't think it's out yet or something? Then again, if you go to SWF, you surely must know about that Pokémon

Spoiler

It's called Shaymin. Looks like a hedgehog Pokémon

 

[Tenki]

Well fatigue really only affects squirtle's killing power Ivysaur and Charizaaard do fine.
The fatigue issue also forces a switch hence why I think Sonic has an advantage on PT simply cause he can play gay and just, run the clock so to speak.

i think its because of the fact that you aren't really given a choice on whom you are using that really affects PT as well as the fact you are dealing with 3 characters at once rather than just one or two(in zelda's case) and none of them really flow with each other as well as Zelda and Sheik do.
Thats from what i have seen though I have no qualm's at all being wrong.

You can choose pokemon at the character select screen

But part of my point was that, even if they were fatigued, they can damage just as easily as they would (well, of course, at a slower rate) if they weren't fatigued. Squirtle can hit people and avoid being hit with his aerial mobility and aerial juggles and outprioritize some characters just as well when he's fatigued as when he's not. Ivysaur still has that spacing ability and powerful punishers, and Charizard doesn't afraid of anything.

iono, in terms of who I'm competent/good with, PT would fall under my tertiary. It's probably better to go ask as PT main lol.

I'm surprised no one has posted this yet

http://pokecool.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/shaymin.png?w=332&h=288

I've posted that Pokémon in a web link rather than as an image so I don't spoil it for anyone cause I don't think it's out yet or something? Then again, if you go to SWF, you surely must know about that Pokémon

Spoiler

It's called Shaymin. Looks like a hedgehog Pokémon

wtf is that.

i don't think i know any pokemon past 251 or 250 lol.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

It's a mega rare Pokémon from Diamond/Pearl (I think?) I don't think it's been released yet...

 

[Napilopez]

Imma quote myself quoting myself:

Imma post part of what I posted in the tier list thread. I think the problem with the lower tiers arises much from the voting system.

Finally read through all of this, gosh.

I agree with most of the top placings.

Lower tiers are where I begin to disagree.

I have a problem with the voting system. I think it works perfectly fine for the higher placed characters, but as you come to the low tiers, many disagreements will tend to ensue I would think, and it just seems the lower tiers were less critically evaluated. Not saying they wereee, but it seems that way. I feel like below D rank or E rank, the characters need to be reevaluated moreso on looking at the characters individual properties and results and such. The voting system seems like it would really lead to innacuracies for the lower tier characters because opinions here could vary so much.

I'm not even doing this so much because of Sonic.

I'm honestly with the yoshi mains here, I can't think of a single reason why Yoshi would move down. I do think he needs more tourney rep in large tournaments, however, but clearly this isn't just about tournies. Even just looking at character attributes and matchups, I don't think he deserves to be there. Likewise there is the problem with Ness and Lucas. I think Ness is clearly better than Lucas, and I think that Yoshi and Sonic PT show at least more potential than lucas and samus.

So thats my gripe with the voting system. Its alot of characters for individual people to evaluate on a 15 point basis, and overall agreements are likely to exist in the higher tiers, the lower tiers just don't seem right by simply looking at it logically, from my point of view. Perhaps use a voting system first, and then critically reaveluate parts of it in order to make sure there is an accurate representation in the lower tiers?

Its hard to explain what I'm getting at, but it just doesn't "feel" like the voting system would yield accurate results in the lower tiers. Think about it and maybe you'll see what I mean.

Any clarification from the SBR-B would be much appreciated though, these are just my personal thoughts =P

What do y'all think? As someone suggested after I posted this, I think there should be a secondary vote or more votes afterwards, perhaps for each individual tier, to further make the list more accurate.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I thought I posted in response earlier.
I agree with it since its been a large issue since melee.
once you get below high tier things get inaccurate and they take longer to be figured out in comparison to the high/top tier characters.

 

[Kinzer]

I come to you humbled and broken. Shamed...yet encouraged. As if invigorated by a Rare Candy of some sort.

As many of you know, a new tier list was recently revealed today. Now, let us be honest...we all knew that both Sonic and Pokemon Trainer would stay in "low" tier, narrowly escaping the clutches of "bottom" tier, otherwise known as the "Lord Meta Knight, have mercy on our souls for we do not deserve to coexist in your game" tier.

Pokemon Trainer and Sonic have quite a bit in common...a lack of advantageous matchups but an abundance of neutral and slightly disadvantageous matchups. A high learning curve. Dedicated followings. And now, these two characters have been placed next to each other in the official SBR-B tier list!

F Tier
Mario 4.56
Lucas 4.50
Ness 4.50
Samus 4.41
Sonic 4.16
Pokémon Trainer 3.94
Yoshi 3.66

Ah, yes, it is as if these characters are created to complement each other, hand in hand, so to speak. But wait...what is this? Let us take a closer look at the characters that are positioned on higher ground in F Tier. I leave it up to you Sonics to create an affectionate nickname for our home for at least the next 6 months, and likely for the rest of eternity.

Mario. You know, Mario seems like a solid, if eternally underrated character in Smash Bros. But top of F Tier is a very enviable position...it means you are almost better than the worst characters in the game. Almost.

The Mother boys. They polled the same exact score. I believe the SBR-B was confused as to which name went with which character, so they played it safe. Fair enough, they both have big black eyes, big round heads, abnormally big feet, and some kind of weird witchcraft attacks. Actually, just pretend that there are only 6 spots in F Tier, and Lucas/Ness are just one character.

Samus. She can make herself practically naked.

Yoshi can go ffffffff itself, that character's mains are almost as annoying as...

...well nevermind.

Anyway, how do Sonic and PT stack up against their fellow FFFFFFFFFF tier companions? Well, when we get down as low as FU tier, no one knows what the **** they are talking about unless they main a character there. And those mains have no idea what the **** they are talking about when they look at the other eFFers. So we look toward the most unbiased (yet still flawed) tool we have.

Tourney results.

Champions of Justice in a Golden, Super Saiyan-like Aura (the font color text tells me it's "orange" but just play along)
Failure in Not Gold

Fall 2008
S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, King Dedede
B: (Falco, Marth), (Mr. Game & Watch, Wario), Lucario, (Diddy Kong, Olimar), ROB
C: Kirby, (Wolf, Peach), Pikachu, (Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong), Sonic, Zero Suit Samus
D: (Bowser, Zelda/Sheik, Toon Link, Ike, Luigi, Pit), Fox
E: (Ness, Yoshi, Mario), Pokémon Trainer, (Link, Captain Falcon), (Lucas, Samus), Jigglypuff, Ganondorf

August/September 2008
*: Meta Knight
S: Snake
A: (Wario, King Dedede), (Falco, Mr. Game & Watch)
B: Marth, (Lucario, ROB, Diddy Kong), (Kirby, Pikachu, Olimar, Peach)
C: Wolf, (Pit, Donkey Kong), Ice Climbers
D: Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, (Pokémon Trainer, Sonic, Luigi, Zelda/Sheik), Fox, Mario
E: (Bowser, Sheik, Yoshi, Zelda, Link, Ike, Ness), Samus, (Jigglypuff, Lucas), (Ganondorf, Captain Falcon)

July/August 2008
S: Meta Knight, Snake
A: Wario, (King Dedede, Falco, Mr. Game & Watch), Marth
B: (Lucario, ROB, Diddy Kong), (Donkey Kong, Kirby)
C: (Peach, Pikachu), (Olimar, Wolf), (Ice Climbers, Pit), Zero Suit Samus
D: Fox, Ike, (Sonic, Lucas, Pokémon Trainer, ZeldaSheik)
E: (Toon Link, Jigglypuff, Mario, Zelda), (Luigi, Sheik, Link, Ness, Bowser, Yoshi, Samus), (Ganondorf, Captain Falcon)

Numbers do not lie, my brothers, regardless of however million Sonics are entering tournaments.

And so, I extend an offer. An offer to form an alliance. We will show all that we are not to be trifled with.

Obviously I call position of "SUPREME COMMANDANTE OF ZE SONIC/TRAINER ALLIANCE AIMING TO DESTROY ALL FFFFFFFF TIER COMPETITION" (name subject to change) cuz it was my idea () but I will need a right hand man to help me guide this new allegiance of justice.

If you choose to accept, of course. Deliberate and take all the time needed. Our dominance can wait.

Hmm... were you going to say the Yoshi boards were just about as annoying as we were? I would be laughing right now, because I actually think those guys are on the same boat as we are (and surprisingly, Yoshi went down... must be the lack of players/tourney results).

You should've known you wouldn't be getting anywhere besides somewhere within the lower bracket of the new tier list, still I'm glad you decided to join our cause (everybody does nowadays). We suffer the same curse.

Being this low on the tier list only makes me want to further prove to other people that Sonic is a viable character in Barlw.

I want to see a photoshop of Sonic in Trainer's clothes... right now... do it!

BTW if you haven't noticed, I'm in, and I petition for Haunter Trainers.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Don't forget Kadabra D:

We'll have a whole team of 6 at this rate. Stick a good flying type in there like Pidegot or someone electric like Pikachu and you'd have my ideal old school Pokémon team. Then we start to take on the Gyms...
I haven't played Pokémon in such a long time...

Well, this a perfect time for your PT team discussion thingy Kinzer

 

[Kinzer]

Indeed, now that this thread has been made, I don't have to worry about my thread export getting closed.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Nice, I wonder how many other boards will be allured by Sonic's swagger.

 

[Camalange]

I'm loving this so much right now

<3

I'm off to eat dinner though...I have so much to read/make up/steak it's not even funny...

Curse you stomach.

Pokemon Unleashed 4 Lyfe.

 

[Espy Rose]

Who are Sonic's allies atm?

Oh, and I approve of this new alliance.

 

[Camalange]

I believe we also have an alliance with the Falcon and Lucas boards.

Once we decide on the final "team name" we should have a social group

 

[Steeler]

hey

we took a bullet for you guys

you are not the worst newcomer now, pt is.

that's what brothers do man, they take bullets for each other.

 

[Kinzer]

Falcon/Lucas/PT are official... you might be able to count Jiggly boards because they endorsed our idea, but not quite to an extent as notifying us wather or not they like us to the point.

PT isn't so bad, I heard Rock Smash is Middle Tier (if they still went by that).

 

[Camalange]

I actually heard Rocksmash is SS Tier.

 

[infomon]

Because of this thread, I am now dedicating myself to learning PT as a competent secondary.

PT rawks. I'm bad with ivysaur but I've seen some amazing stuff done with her (him? it?).
Squirtle's cool because he's a lot like Sonic. I didn't understand "shellshifting" until I realized he's just capitalizing on the dash-turnaround, which Sonics can do to; just to slightly less effect, but it's mostly DDP craziness, along with that extra dash-turnaround slide you get (where you can even crouch while sliding).... I need to srsly practice some squirtlage!

I have a hard time with Charizard, but I play as Bowser a lot and they're sorta similar. (don't hurt me, I said sorta! I know they're very different....)

Everyone whines about the fatigue thing, but I really don't see it as a big issue; it's the learning-three-very-different-characters that's a problem IMO... but I'm a pokénewb

Pokémon Unleashed ftw

 

[Camalange]

I guess I have to do the same as infzy, because we use all of the same characters

I actually have been working on my PT and Falcon a lot. I just need to get better with Squirtle (who I actually used to think was the best one LOL)

I find Ivy to be total ****. If he/she? had a better recovery, he/she?'d be high (S?) Tier.

When I'm Charizard, I find that fatigue means ****. Rocksmash follows no rules.

 

[Kinzer]

Charizard doesn't afraid of anything, and I can actually see potential in Ivysaur. If its recovery wasn't so teribad, it would be better. Ivysaur's like a spacing/punishing game, which is mostly what Sonic is about.

 

[Espy Rose]

Falcon/Lucas/PT are official... you might be able to count Jiggly boards because they endorsed our idea, but not quite to an extent as notifying us wather or not they like us to the point.

PT isn't so bad, I heard Rock Smash is Middle Tier (if they still went by that).

I thought we were also okay with the Lucario boards since their blue flames cook our steak?

 

[Kinzer]

Nah man, they are anything but allies since THC said Chocolate > Steak, I would expect somebody like you to remember something like that. D:

Is not right man, I know for a fact Chocolate has nothing on Steak.

 

[Zeallyx]

well, I'm more inclined to align with PT than CF =/

Plus, Ivysaur is sexy

Well, now I know where I'm standing..

;_;

 

[DemonFart]

this alliance makes me want to cry

 

[deepseadiva]

Sonic the Hedgehog is my favorite Pokemon anyway.

 

[Tenki]

Oh yeah. Sandslash was amazing.

And yeah, Ivysaur is a spacing/punishing game, but in a more 'standstill' (er, not so much offensive spacing/approaching movement) kind of way.

 

[JayBee]

Im kinda pissed off. just a bit. I think it was obviously proven by the precious tourney results these guys covet that Sonic is not as low as they put him. i think its just ignorance or just a prejudice on his game. They don't like how he wins his games. its as simple as that. This is stupid. im ignoring this bogus list altogether. im going to go look for this list myself and read it now...