DDD Social: we livin' in smash 4

[Coney]

@4GOD:

nah, i think it's just a simple ledge hop>buffered dair. i see what you mean though, it does look kind of low...not really sure though, i'd have to test it again. i can tell you though, ledge hop>buffered dair hits EVERYONE if they're right next to the ledge, like he was, no matter who they are. it's like, my favorite getup option lmfao

atomsk does drop>buffered airdodge/jump back on stage, i do ledgehop dair, it is our destiny

 

[Player-1]

you can cancel the height of your ledge jump with a midair jump so you get 2 different distances which is what coney did in that vid.

 

[4GOD (JJV)]

Guys what do you think of this penguin? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuFx...UCGXQYbcTJ33ZHPU1eW3tFHNSHb0IWiyrPY-tW-_WLdVE

Never heard of him. Only had time to see the first game. From the 1 game that I saw, he's alright at tech-chasing and sdi; he's good at camping, playing defensively, and powershielding; he's bad at not tripping. I think he should pivot grab more and up-tilt when fox is kill % instead of grab. If the bair after a fthrow isnt landing against fox at high %, then I would start mixing it up at the ledge after a grab like pummel breaking, grab releasing, or just dthrowing. Anyway, it's hard to judge a player from only one game.

 

[Xubble]

I did NOT know about AC dairs. And now I just got about a billion times better. >:D

Also, does anybody know the frame advantage we get when we hit a grounded opponent with FF nair? I know it's enough to land utilt, but I'm not sure about jab.

Nevertheless, it seems to be a legit combo (or at least pseuso-combo).

For standard CGable characters:
FF nair > jab1 > jab2 > grab > CG to edge (pummel once if you reach 50%) > bthrow/dtilt/dthrow dat Snake/fthrow/whatever.

For the lucky ones who can't get CGed:
FF nair > jab1 > jab2 > grab > bthrow (for teh damage)


I haven't tested it thoroughly; HOWEVER, if it works like I think it should, it tacks on anywhere between 35% (non-CGable) to 66% (Mario on FD) damage. Note that this only works when the opponent is at low percents (for Mario, it was between 0% - ~15%, don't remember the exact number).

So next time Snake goes for a DACUS to edgeguard you, keep my Xubble combo in mind.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'll check the frame advantage later.

You've reminded me that I've gotta do frame advantages for hitstun now.

 

[Doc King]

The Xubble combo looks good for a mindgaming combo.

It seems like it can improve our comboing and mindgaming a little bit.

Cool stuff Xubble.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

For the record, jab1 has pitiful hitstun. It's not even enough to lead into jab2. lol

Or at least that's what I recall.

I'd test it, but got a blackout atm. So yeah. >____>

 

[Exdeath]

Lol @ TC. Good stuff all_short keep it up! And Doc King, I know you're all about the little things but it's great to have someone like you contributing here as well! I very much appreciate the little things! They'll help me take close games.

Check this coney vs ic match at 1:45. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoCCJDNeS4s

Is it just me or was the ledge hop dair shorter in height than normal? I'm annoyed when I try to ledge hop dair characters and I miss because their models are so tiny. Can you control how high you ledge jump?

I tried to watch part of that game and I got really mad.

 

[Xubble]

For the record, jab1 has pitiful hitstun. It's not even enough to lead into jab2. lol

Or at least that's what I recall.

I'd test it, but got a blackout atm. So yeah. >____>

Given that our jab is hardly EVER used, I'm sure landing jab2 can't be that difficult. The shock value is pretty fun.

"Rofl, who fast fall nairs?"
"WTF jab?"
"YOU CAN GRAB FROM THAT?!"
"Fuuuuuu I'm at 60%! T_T"

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Jab 2 > grab is legit, and I don't think I've missed it whenever I've tried for it, of course, landing jab is the hard part. Nair > jab 1 sounds fishy though, I'd have to give it a shot.

Also, it turns out ROB feels so good for me.

 

[Xubble]

I've yet to test it with DI in mind. But nair > jab works at low percents from what I've tested.

Also, backwards dair > bair is fun at mid percents. Pretty sure this was known, but it's fun as hell and worth mentioning.

 

[AtotheZ]

Dedede's jab is horrible. It's fine for a mix up or two I suppose though, just be careful with it against any char with a fast jab/dtilt/ftilt. I'm pretty sure they can sheild or grab before the second hit too.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

so, the most unusual thing;

Frame Advance stopped workin'.

Weird.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

k, so nair has a +7 on hit, but launches them in the air, so if they don't have any decently fast aerials (someone like Lucario has 5 frames to land onto the ground), jab might hit if they don't bother shielding.

Also jab 1 is -6 on hit on Lucario (lol). Which means if you jab someone like Zelda/MK/ROB/Wofl/Marf (assuming they all suffer the same amount of hitstun), they can d-smash you before the second jab comes out. lol

Jab 2 sticks Lucario into the air. He can air dodge (or outright counter attack) and power shield the third hit on landing.

When done perfectly, the second hit of jab leaves Lucario about 4 frames to buffer a spot dodge (from his landing lag), and another 4 frames of which he can do stuff before he gets grabbed.

Fascinating stuff.

You'd be better off grabbing after nair. lolz

 

[Xubble]

I figured grab was safer than jab, but I liked jab for the extra damage, like 9% fresh.

So you could use jab as a mixup, or go straight for a grab after a nair. +7 is enough to land a grab guaranteed at those percents if I'm not mistaken.

Was this already known, or did I just give us a guaranteed grab setup?

 

[Coney]

ffnair > grab is old

like, real old

don't try to find use for jab tho, **** just sucks

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Nice, not leaving himself open against Fox, he could be a little more aggressive with... BAir or something on a predicted jump but still fine.
Oooh, I like that turnaround grab at :24
At around :30, rather than roll away a BAir OoS would have been better.

I saw the SD though and stopped watching. Basically... He's just not aggressive enough. I see him trying to find that opening for the kill there, and not finding it, and NOT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT. Kinda annoys me.

 

[4GOD (JJV)]

@4GOD:

nah, i think it's just a simple ledge hop>buffered dair. i see what you mean though, it does look kind of low...not really sure though, i'd have to test it again. i can tell you though, ledge hop>buffered dair hits EVERYONE if they're right next to the ledge, like he was, no matter who they are. it's like, my favorite getup option lmfao

atomsk does drop>buffered airdodge/jump back on stage, i do ledgehop dair, it is our destiny

Hmm, well I'll practice jump-canceling if anything happens. Yeah, I suppose it's my fav getup option since I do it prolly more than others. I guess I just have to make sure they're RIGHT next to the ledge. Otherwise, if they're tiny, I just miss and get punished. I almost never try the Atomsk when I'm at high % because it feels like the two-frame vulnerability window we have turns to like 20 lol.

Also, beat kismet's falco again last night. But lost to both charizard and ICs game 3. I'll get'em next time.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=317039&highlight=4god

 

[Doc King]

4God, I actually know some AT's on Charizard that might help you.

Did you lose to reflex? Because he posted it on the matchup version 2 discussion.

Climbers, for help, I guess you can just watch some Coney vids on YouTube.

 

[4GOD (JJV)]

Thx Doc. I've seen the vids a couple of times. My set could've gone either way. Yes, it is Reflex. Do you know any besides the pivot grab infinite and the usmash out of dthrow?

 

[Doc King]

I know you can turn around and bair out of a d throw on charizard. You can also do dash dance forward and back into a pivot grab on edges and downward and upward slopes on Charizard. You can also d throw to a little walk to a jab. You can even do stuff with Charizards rco lag like d throw to f smash.

For Squirtle, you can air release him to a dash grab, which can help you get him offstage. You can also air release him to a dash attack with his rco lag.

There are a lot of random things D3 can do on PT. I have the stuff on the allisbrawl D3 boards.

 

[4GOD (JJV)]

Sounds interesting. Could you link me to it? I tried learning how to navigate allisbrawl but I quickly gave up.

 

[Doc King]

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/forum.aspx?fid=20

 

[AtotheZ]

Hosting a smash 64 tourney YESSSSSSSS

 

[4GOD (JJV)]

So Doc, the difference between the "buffered standing pivot grab infinite" and the "dash dance pivot infinite" is that I dont have to buffer the pivot grab with the latter? How did you test all these findings?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Was this already known, or did I just give us a guaranteed grab setup?

You can utilt, so that means grab and dtilt are guarenteed, so people would have known about this ages ago.

I know you can turn around and bair out of a d throw on charizard. You can also do dash dance forward and back into a pivot grab on edges and downward and upward slopes on Charizard. You can also d throw to a little walk to a jab. You can even do stuff with Charizards rco lag like d throw to f smash.

For Squirtle, you can air release him to a dash grab, which can help you get him offstage. You can also air release him to a dash attack with his rco lag.

There are a lot of random things D3 can do on PT. I have the stuff on the allisbrawl D3 boards.

I still have to test all this stuff. lol

So Doc, the difference between the "buffered standing pivot grab infinite" and the "dash dance pivot infinite" is that I dont have to buffer the pivot grab with the latter? How did you test all these findings?

I think they're the same.

 

[Doc King]

So Doc, the difference between the "buffered standing pivot grab infinite" and the "dash dance pivot infinite" is that I dont have to buffer the pivot grab with the latter? How did you test all these findings?

The buffered standing pivot grab infinite is where you input back, down, back and pivot grab in 10 frames. Dash Dance Pivot Grab, you just dash forward and backward from the opponent into a pivot grab.

I tested these findings on Training mode.

A fun act is that I discovered Dash Dance Pivot Grab when I was trying to do the buffered standing pivot grab infinite on Bowser.

You can utilt, so that means grab and dtilt are guarenteed, so people would have known about this ages ago.
I still have to test all this stuff. lol


I think they're the same.

I got unpatient for you and ended up testing it myself. lol.

They're different, but similar.

 

[Exdeath]

don't try to find use for jab tho, **** just sucks

Walk up to someone and space Jab 1>Jab 2>Grab. If I read the frame data correctly, there's only only a 2 frame margin of error (including grab armor) for DDD to be dash grabbed between Jab 1 and Jab 2, and Jab 2 should option-select spot dodge if they dodged Jab 1. If they shield Jab 2, just go into Jab 3 (Jab 2>Spot dodge and Jab 2>Jab 3 have identical start-up). Jab 3's optimal shield advantage is also DDD's frame-safest attack on block.

 

[da K.I.D.]

tusm hit me with jab 1 jab 2 to dash grab before.

i was tight.

 

[4GOD (JJV)]

Cant do the infinite on yoshi or squirtle. But air-release squirtle -> dash attack (rco lag) is a great find! Works just fine for me! Have any vids of those infinites?

 

[Doc King]

Cant do the infinite on yoshi or squirtle. But air-release squirtle -> dash attack (rco lag) is a great find! Works just fine for me! Have any vids of those infinites?

Yes I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fx7bPmspB4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YunQ5gxogJg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHVzDhJOiSo&feature=youtu.be

BTW, D3's air release is not an infinite, it's just where you dash grab him right after the air release.

 

[allshort17]

Is there any way to calculate advantage on hit through an equation or something?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Probably. Weight and damage are the biggest factors of hitstun. Also moves with a high base knockback to knockback growth tend to have the same amount of hitstun across the cast at 0%.

iirc.

I will get awn advantages on hit tonight for you guys! I'll find out the various weight classes and do as much work as possible for you and post everything in the frame data thread. =D

 

[allshort17]

Thanks. I really appreciate the work you put into the frame data. It was greatly needed and I'm glad you took care of it.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I know now what I need to work on with my D3.

TC is back and ready to whoop ***.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

yay personal epiphanies.

Care to share?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

yay personal epiphanies.

Care to share?

Sure.

I stopped playing with Dedede since I returned from Apex so I could focus on what it is I need to work on him with. I thought about why I feel like I have hit a roadblock with him. The reason was is that he is too slow and I feel weighed down by playing him. I thought about the freedom and the mobility that Wario has (my now co-main) that Dedede lacks. I refuse to just give up Dedede so I had to think about what I can do to remedy this. Logically, I felt like I needed to find a way to make Dedede faster.

One of the major issues I have with Dedede is that because of the fact that he is slow, I feel slow. My thinking becomes slow when I play with this character in a sense. So I decided that I need to speed him up. And then I realized, the way I can do this is through buffering. It has no detrimental effects...buffering just makes everything go faster. M2K plays by buffering everything and when I play him...I feel like he's just so much faster than me in everything..his execution and his thinking process. And so I need to train myself to move like that even if its Dedede. If you move faster naturally, your mind will be in the same pace.

In many situations, its not that I don't know all my options, its just that I don't think about them quick enough in certain situations and end up making premature decisions on how to handle a certain situation. Or I just end up not reacting at all/fast enough and get hit when I would think that logically that shield or spotdodge should have come out.

So basically, I need to move to the next level of technical proficiency and mastery over my character and learn how to buffer efficiently. I need to just become faster with Dedede and my thought process with him through and through.

That is how I will improve with him.

 

[da K.I.D.]

note to doc king.

when trying to improve your characters metagame, this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HtBuodI2U_8
is the kind of general total game plan thing that you should be focusing on, instead of janky niche, character/stage specific crap that is too hard to implement effectively

 

[AtotheZ]

note to doc king.

when trying to improve your characters metagame, this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HtBuodI2U_8
is the kind of general total game plan thing that you should be focusing on, instead of janky niche, character/stage specific crap that is too hard to implement effectively

Note to da K.I.D., obviously his focus is the janky small stuff that can slightly improve our game, and well, he's good at finding that janky small stuff. Some of it can be implemented, and if no one else is finding this stuff, I'm fine with just letting him do it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

At least he's trying, which is more that can be said for 80% of the character boards and 95% of the general smash population.



Edit: and what AtotheZ said.