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DDD Chaingrabbing - Infinite list: Demonstrational video added
- Thread starter Mr.C
- Start date
- Status
weegeedisco
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2008
- Messages
- 3
I've seen your video, and I must say, I am very impressed. I would just like to thank you for inspiring me to play as DDD.
Oh, and I like how you use the purple costume the most
Oh, and I like how you use the purple costume the most
Hive
Smash Lord
ok here is the revised data, from colin jfs analysis ^^ i hope this clarifies!
And if there are disagreements, at the very least, I hope it promotes intelligent discussion and promotes corrections to have a more solid understanding of the data in the future, since this is such a big issue concerning the infinites against a few characters. I'm also trying to verify what the human thresholds for hitting a button are as well. if you have any online tests, etc... that will help demonstrate this please show me ^^
However the data seems correct.
Also a big ty to adumbrodeus, Natch, bobson, and Ref for all the help/information! ^^
Much of the work goes to ColinJF though!
List of Assumptions Used
(concrete ones to more debatable ones (for the most part)
-The frame data here is correct and reliable.
-DDDs pummel lasts 29 frames.
-The break total is 90 + 1.7*for every percent.
(so 90 at 0%, and 91.7 at 1%).
-For each frame that passes 1 is subtracted from the break total. so if you are grabbed at 0%, after 90 frames, or 1 and a half second you will be released automatically.
-Each button, or cardinal direction of the control stick you press subtracts 8 from the break
out total. A flick of the control stick takes away 16 frames, although it can't be rotated.
-Pressing buttons enough so that their total > the break total constitutes breaking out of a grab.
-DDD can throw you until 33% from 0 until he is forced to
pummel at least once (undegenerated).
-The pummel hits for 4% damage.
-Each game frame is 1/60th of a second.
-note: The human thresholds used are the MAX of what you should expect, NOT the average.
-There are 10 frames of buffering before the pummel that contribute towards you breaking out. (so the amount of time you need to break out is 39 frames total).
-You can only press 1 button plus 1 cardinal direction of the control stick at any given frame (a maximum of -16 per frame).
Ideally this means you want to be able to skew the buttons you are pressing to have them hit on separeate frames.
-The DDD is able to do the infinite correctly and without
unecessary lag.
-The DDD throws you until it is necessary to pummel.
--The person is able to hit his/her first buttons on the first frame available to.
List of Human Assumptions:
-The average player can hit 6-7 button comfortably (both addressed).
The B, A, X, Y, L, R, and possible Z, as well as the control stick.
-In my opinion, The human capacity (max) to hit a button and c-stick direction is 8 frames or more. Not
including any sort of reaction time. about 4 times a second roughly.
-In my opinion, It takes an equal amount of time to fully release a button as it
does to press one. (not including the control stick which hits
every interval since its not released).
-It takes no time to put your hand into position to hit the buttons.
The Key
-In order to find out how many inputs per frame one must press to break out we use the equation
(((90+1.7p)/f)-1)/8= inputs per frame to break out. where p=the percentage you are at, and f is the amount of frames you have to break out in.
so for an example, at 0% damage if you are grabbed and thrown until a pummel is necessary, (about 33%) and then pummeled (4%) the percentage you are at is 37% damage before you are able to escape due to him pummeling. you have 39 frames to escape in. the 29 frames of his pummel plus 10 buffering frames. so the total amount of inputs per frame needed to break out is about 0.36.
at 129% the amount reflex broke out in in the vid below, this would mean that the inputs per frame is about 0.87.
-To find the total amount of inputs you need to press in the allotted time, you use the equation ((90+1.7p)-f)/8 this means that at 37% by the 39th frame you need to have had pressed 15 inputs. (rounded up to the nearest whole input).
again, for 129% this tallies up to around 34 buttons.
-To apply this to human thresholds if you want (i will be using my opinions that the avg human capacity to hit a button takes maybe 8 frames to hit and an equal amount of time to release. the c-stick hits a cardinal direction every 8 frames. obviously differences in opinions are bound to happen (see data sheet and summary). 8 frames means that you can press a single button about 4 times a second though.) for my opinions on what someone should be expected to do in 39 frames this means that a person will be able to hit 26 inputs in 39 frames. this means that in order to achieve a breakout in 39 frames the inputs needed to be pressed are less than 26. (or rather about 2/3 of a button per frame).
Data Sheet for Human Threshold Equations
its lengthy
(putting it all together)
Human Thresholds equation (to find out how many inputs are pressed in a given period, f)
a=the amount of time it takes to press a button from rest.
2a=the amount of time it takes to press a button and return to your original position.
(2 is an assumption)
f=Is the number of frames you are expected to enter the inputs in.
c=The amount of buttons on the control stick that you can hit comfortably with one hand position (most people say 6 or 7).
b=The amount of time it takes you to rotate the control stick from one cardinal direction to the next. (90 degrees)
Step 1: c*((f/2a) rd), but only if 2a>c. If 2a<c the amount of buttons pressed =f (if this is true skip step 2)
Step 2: now use the equations x=f/2a-(f/2a rd), and y=c/2a.
If x-y>=0. add c to your total in step 1.
If x-y<0 add c*[(f/2a- (f/2a rd))/((c/2a) rd)] to your total in step 1.
Step 3: Finally add ((1+((f-1)/b)) rd) to the other two (or one) totals to find the answer.
Example: How many buttons are pressed if you can hit a button or control-stick direction in 8 frames each, in an interval of 39 frames, if you can hit 7 buttons comfortably?
(14+ (.4375=.4375)so +7 so +5)=26 buttons.
Examle2:How fast do you have to hit the buttons to break out at 129%, pressing 7 buttons comfortably over 39 frame interval? (the amount you need to reach is 34 buttons). if a and b are hit at the same rates?
7*((39/2a) rd), if 2a>7. what happens when 2a=7 though? (35+(.5714-1) +4+6)=45. so we can say that yes, 2a>c.
now use 7*((39/2a) rd) + step 2 + ((1+((38)/a)) rd)= 34. we have to guess and check to account for the round offs. if a=5 (21 + 7 + 8)= 36 buttons. You need to be able to press the buttons a little faster than about once every 10 frames (5 to push and 5 to release). (I think the actual number is about 9.6 total). imo pressing a button in about 4.8 frames is hard but that's just me.
Some Resources
edit: here is a website that tests reaction time for fun ^^ http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/...time/index.php
edit2: the video for Reflex breaking out at 129% is here->
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm8z4O24CvI
he breaks out near the end.
And if there are disagreements, at the very least, I hope it promotes intelligent discussion and promotes corrections to have a more solid understanding of the data in the future, since this is such a big issue concerning the infinites against a few characters. I'm also trying to verify what the human thresholds for hitting a button are as well. if you have any online tests, etc... that will help demonstrate this please show me ^^
However the data seems correct.
Also a big ty to adumbrodeus, Natch, bobson, and Ref for all the help/information! ^^
Much of the work goes to ColinJF though!
List of Assumptions Used
(concrete ones to more debatable ones (for the most part)
-The frame data here is correct and reliable.
-DDDs pummel lasts 29 frames.
-The break total is 90 + 1.7*for every percent.
(so 90 at 0%, and 91.7 at 1%).
-For each frame that passes 1 is subtracted from the break total. so if you are grabbed at 0%, after 90 frames, or 1 and a half second you will be released automatically.
-Each button, or cardinal direction of the control stick you press subtracts 8 from the break
out total. A flick of the control stick takes away 16 frames, although it can't be rotated.
-Pressing buttons enough so that their total > the break total constitutes breaking out of a grab.
-DDD can throw you until 33% from 0 until he is forced to
pummel at least once (undegenerated).
-The pummel hits for 4% damage.
-Each game frame is 1/60th of a second.
-note: The human thresholds used are the MAX of what you should expect, NOT the average.
-There are 10 frames of buffering before the pummel that contribute towards you breaking out. (so the amount of time you need to break out is 39 frames total).
-You can only press 1 button plus 1 cardinal direction of the control stick at any given frame (a maximum of -16 per frame).
Ideally this means you want to be able to skew the buttons you are pressing to have them hit on separeate frames.
-The DDD is able to do the infinite correctly and without
unecessary lag.
-The DDD throws you until it is necessary to pummel.
--The person is able to hit his/her first buttons on the first frame available to.
List of Human Assumptions:
-The average player can hit 6-7 button comfortably (both addressed).
The B, A, X, Y, L, R, and possible Z, as well as the control stick.
-In my opinion, The human capacity (max) to hit a button and c-stick direction is 8 frames or more. Not
including any sort of reaction time. about 4 times a second roughly.
-In my opinion, It takes an equal amount of time to fully release a button as it
does to press one. (not including the control stick which hits
every interval since its not released).
-It takes no time to put your hand into position to hit the buttons.
The Key
-In order to find out how many inputs per frame one must press to break out we use the equation
(((90+1.7p)/f)-1)/8= inputs per frame to break out. where p=the percentage you are at, and f is the amount of frames you have to break out in.
so for an example, at 0% damage if you are grabbed and thrown until a pummel is necessary, (about 33%) and then pummeled (4%) the percentage you are at is 37% damage before you are able to escape due to him pummeling. you have 39 frames to escape in. the 29 frames of his pummel plus 10 buffering frames. so the total amount of inputs per frame needed to break out is about 0.36.
at 129% the amount reflex broke out in in the vid below, this would mean that the inputs per frame is about 0.87.
-To find the total amount of inputs you need to press in the allotted time, you use the equation ((90+1.7p)-f)/8 this means that at 37% by the 39th frame you need to have had pressed 15 inputs. (rounded up to the nearest whole input).
again, for 129% this tallies up to around 34 buttons.
-To apply this to human thresholds if you want (i will be using my opinions that the avg human capacity to hit a button takes maybe 8 frames to hit and an equal amount of time to release. the c-stick hits a cardinal direction every 8 frames. obviously differences in opinions are bound to happen (see data sheet and summary). 8 frames means that you can press a single button about 4 times a second though.) for my opinions on what someone should be expected to do in 39 frames this means that a person will be able to hit 26 inputs in 39 frames. this means that in order to achieve a breakout in 39 frames the inputs needed to be pressed are less than 26. (or rather about 2/3 of a button per frame).
Data Sheet for Human Threshold Equations
its lengthy
Summary
(putting it all together)
Human Thresholds equation (to find out how many inputs are pressed in a given period, f)
a=the amount of time it takes to press a button from rest.
2a=the amount of time it takes to press a button and return to your original position.
(2 is an assumption)
f=Is the number of frames you are expected to enter the inputs in.
c=The amount of buttons on the control stick that you can hit comfortably with one hand position (most people say 6 or 7).
b=The amount of time it takes you to rotate the control stick from one cardinal direction to the next. (90 degrees)
Step 1: c*((f/2a) rd), but only if 2a>c. If 2a<c the amount of buttons pressed =f (if this is true skip step 2)
Step 2: now use the equations x=f/2a-(f/2a rd), and y=c/2a.
If x-y>=0. add c to your total in step 1.
If x-y<0 add c*[(f/2a- (f/2a rd))/((c/2a) rd)] to your total in step 1.
Step 3: Finally add ((1+((f-1)/b)) rd) to the other two (or one) totals to find the answer.
Example: How many buttons are pressed if you can hit a button or control-stick direction in 8 frames each, in an interval of 39 frames, if you can hit 7 buttons comfortably?
(14+ (.4375=.4375)so +7 so +5)=26 buttons.
Examle2:How fast do you have to hit the buttons to break out at 129%, pressing 7 buttons comfortably over 39 frame interval? (the amount you need to reach is 34 buttons). if a and b are hit at the same rates?
7*((39/2a) rd), if 2a>7. what happens when 2a=7 though? (35+(.5714-1) +4+6)=45. so we can say that yes, 2a>c.
now use 7*((39/2a) rd) + step 2 + ((1+((38)/a)) rd)= 34. we have to guess and check to account for the round offs. if a=5 (21 + 7 + 8)= 36 buttons. You need to be able to press the buttons a little faster than about once every 10 frames (5 to push and 5 to release). (I think the actual number is about 9.6 total). imo pressing a button in about 4.8 frames is hard but that's just me.
Some Resources
edit: here is a website that tests reaction time for fun ^^ http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/...time/index.php
edit2: the video for Reflex breaking out at 129% is here->
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm8z4O24CvI
he breaks out near the end.
Chileno4Live
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2008
- Messages
- 661
- Location
- Almere, The Netherlands
- NNID
- Xyronith
- 3DS FC
- 0731-5336-4808
But how do you do the infinite on Luigi then? It doesn't work for me X_X. Also, the timing of the infinite on the characters are different, because i couldn't grab bowser as how i grabbed DK. Amirite?
Vayseth
Smash Master
The infinite is easy on any character. Mash throw after you down throw. It'll buffer in a bunch and regrab. It's too easy, which is why most people are banning it.
MyCurse4Life
Smash Ace
you're missing the "can be chained but escapable" category, and luigi is part of it in regards to the normal chain.
also, I find Bthrow and Fthrow to be very usefull, and the turn around Bthrow animation immidiatly after grabbing from a dashing shield is too cool, and you can follow up and jump waddle toss which can kill if you get a gordo.
also, I find Bthrow and Fthrow to be very usefull, and the turn around Bthrow animation immidiatly after grabbing from a dashing shield is too cool, and you can follow up and jump waddle toss which can kill if you get a gordo.
Vayseth
Smash Master
Hey guys, I think today I'm going to start rewriting my chaingrab thread I originally posted on all is brawl and update it including character specific nuances with the chaingrab. I have been temped for an incredibly long time to make a chaingrabbing video, with actual production value, but I don't exactly want to seperate myself from my 50K+ viewed tutorial, plus it would take considerable time and effort.
I am wondering how everyone would feel about that, and then I can get this thread de-stickyed and the new all-inclusive one stickyed in its place.
I am wondering how everyone would feel about that, and then I can get this thread de-stickyed and the new all-inclusive one stickyed in its place.
Vayseth
Smash Master
Mine's shaping up to be mighty detailed. Expect a final copy by tomorrow night.
Obviously, I will update accordingly after you all take a look at it.
Obviously, I will update accordingly after you all take a look at it.
fsdfsdgsgdf
Smash Champion
Can sonic use his upB to get out of D3's chaingrab?
fsdfsdgsgdf
Smash Champion
ok thanks.
Met
Smash Ace
**** people still play this ****ty game?
Met
Smash Ace
uh melee?...
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
You know, I was talking to a professional Street Fighter player, and he said, Smash doesn't have combos unless you can break out of them somehow.
After that, I said, basically, whaaaaaat?
He said, all fighting games with combo have some sort of combo breaker, because if the other person can't break out, then there is no skill involved.
I didn't tell him about the Brawl vs Melee argument, and how it revolved around the opposite of that, but I want to know what you guys think.
After that, I said, basically, whaaaaaat?
He said, all fighting games with combo have some sort of combo breaker, because if the other person can't break out, then there is no skill involved.
I didn't tell him about the Brawl vs Melee argument, and how it revolved around the opposite of that, but I want to know what you guys think.
Vayseth
Smash Master
DI = how to break out. Smash is the only game where "combos" basically don't exist because you can air dodge or DI a certain way, and stop being hit. "Combo" the actual word itself means a series of hits that are guaranteed. Very few games have combo breakers. I'm pretty sure SF does not. GGX and TvC do, and some others too in the form of a burst, mega crush, or something of the sort. Soul Caliber has air control, which is basically a form of DI.
However, smash (brawl in particular) is the only game to have VERY little combos because it's more about reading people and how they react. Nothing is really guaranteed, save a few things.
Tell your buddy he's a ******.
However, smash (brawl in particular) is the only game to have VERY little combos because it's more about reading people and how they react. Nothing is really guaranteed, save a few things.
Tell your buddy he's a ******.
fsdfsdgsgdf
Smash Champion
No u
10No u's
10No u's
Met
Smash Ace
lack of combos is lack of funz
Jupz
Smash Master
The D3 boards made a list of characters that can chain grab and infinite Dedede. Just wondering if you wanted to put it in the thread
Originally my idea, smexy blu edited the post with pics and stuff.
Originally my idea, smexy blu edited the post with pics and stuff.
Originally posted by Jupz.
Everyone is focusing on who DDD can chain grab but I noticed we dont have a list of characters that can infinite/CG DeDeDe so here it is. This might make people more aware with certain matchus.
Character:
Infinite move -> Finishing Move:
Percent you can break out (if any):
How to avoid the infinite:
Chaingrabs / Infinites
Down Throw -> Down Air/Gatling Combo/Boost Smash.
-> 54%
Tips: Try not to get grabbed at a low percent, you shouldnt be able to outcamp falco so use your grab range over his to try and avoid the chaingrab. Spotdodge if possible but watch out if he tries to punish you. Try and make him work up the percent slowly without getting chaingrabbed.
Down Throw -> Up Smash
-> 60&
Tips: This is gay, run away as much as posible.
D-Throw / F-Throw / B-Throw -> Any move
->Infinite ( The D-throw chaingrab is NOT an Infinite)
Tips: They grab you once you lose a stock. Try being as campy as possible.
Side-B -> ???
-> 38%
Tips: Most players don't know about this chaingrab but it does works and it racks up decent damage but Lucario doesn't have any effective follow-ups after the chaingrab.
F-Throw -> Fair / Nair
-> 50%
Tips: At 0% If they F-throw you they can follow up with a tippered F-Smash, this chaingrab isn't meant to rack up damage its meant to give Marth a good position over his enemy and get a phew Fair's and Nair's out of it.
Grab Release -> Fair
->Infinite
Tips: This is why he has a good matchup against Meta Knight... Its hard to time.
Forward Throw -> Upsmash / Uthrow
60%
Tips: Abuse your grab range and try to stay in the air and beat out his arials with bair.
Wall Infinites / Ledge Infinites
These ones can only be performed in a stage that has a wall were you can get cornered or "gay'ed".
Dtilt -> Fsmash / Dsmash
-> Infinite
Tips: Not much tips really just don't play near walls.
Dtilt -> Dsmash
-> Infinite
Tips: Same as Marth's.
Dtilt -> Utilt
-> Infinite
Tips: Mr. Game & Watch has the best Wall Infinite out all of the characters IMO. This is EXTREMELY easy to perform...
Dtilt -> Utilt / Dsmash
-> Infinite
Tips: Same as the other one's.
Down Throw -> U-tilt/Side-tilt
-> Infinite
Tips: Snake can infinite Dedede at the ledge of the stage, theres no way you can break out of this so you gotta wait till the Snake player screws up because this has strict timing, and if the Snake player never screws up you're practically dead.
Down Throw -> Dtilt
-> Infinite
Tips: This can only be done in the edge against other King DeDeDe, Its pretty much as gay as the other Infinites.
Jupz
Smash Master
Ok thanks :D
Infinite chain grab on marth
I'm newer to DDD, i dabbled with him for a while but just recently got serious with him.
My problem is simple.
I can Dthrow chain grab computers across the stage with ease, i can do the same to anyone i play with. However, if I put on a computer marth in practice mode and put him on "run", i can't....If i get ahold of him I can chain him once....meaning grab Dthrow grab, he gets away from DI.
Would anyone be willing to just do the same thing and see if you can grab him 3-4 times? I'm wondering if my timing is just terrible. I chain grab everything else with ease.
Thank you !
I'm newer to DDD, i dabbled with him for a while but just recently got serious with him.
My problem is simple.
I can Dthrow chain grab computers across the stage with ease, i can do the same to anyone i play with. However, if I put on a computer marth in practice mode and put him on "run", i can't....If i get ahold of him I can chain him once....meaning grab Dthrow grab, he gets away from DI.
Would anyone be willing to just do the same thing and see if you can grab him 3-4 times? I'm wondering if my timing is just terrible. I chain grab everything else with ease.
Thank you !
Commander_Beef
Smash Champion
Agreed, very nice. There should be more posting here! ;DGood job with this man.
xXTACXx
Smash Journeyman
In my opinion every fighting game has its own meaning for the word "combo". For the brawl and melee argument/discussion my side is that melees combos have more hitstun than brawls and they are based on the number of hits you can get in on your opponent before he can use his 2nd jump or DI out of it. In brawl combing is all about the number of hits you can get in on your opponent without them landing a hit on you. Brawl is all about playing smarter than your opponent and getting in his head. Melee is more about moving quick and quicky getting in and destroying your opponents spacing.
Just keep discussing Dedede this is going off topic lulz.
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